"not everyone wants (or needs) to drive around in a Landcruiser"
And a good job they don't. The perceived safety advantage would disappear and they'd all be covered in dents from the other LC users in supermarket car parks!
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Michael R: "The shorter you drive and the less mileage you do, the more a big engined car makes sense."
Agreed, but in absolute terms, as you admit, the big-engined car costs about double in petrol for the same journey. Remember, the woman I mentioned doesn't have paid employment. She can pay £10 a week for petrol, but would struggle to have to pay £20.
MapMaker : "So he pays an extra £1,000 - £1,500 to save her £10? £25? per month in petrol?"
Well the amount saved would be more like £43 a month in petrol.
And the car is his (the hubby's) property, so although he had to pay an extra £800 or so to get one with PAS, he should get more back for it when he comes to sell it in the future.
And again don't forget savings like £100 a year in road tax as Pyruse mentioned, and probably £200-300 a year for insurance (she's a new driver, with zero no-claims).
And again the potential for bills for failed exhaust manifolds or cambelts or whatever on a V6.
I don't deny that big cars offer more value and make better *sense*, but it doesn't follow that they are always cheaper to run overall when all costs are considered.
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I dont like sharing roads with people so skint, £10 a month in running costs makes a noticeable difference to them. I don't trust them to maintain their cars properly. There must surely come a time when you have to admit you are so close to the wire you cannot afford to run a car. When you are scraping together for a tenner, that time has arrived.
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Many people don?t maintain their cars properly ? rich and poor
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"I dont like sharing roads with people so skint"
Not everyone is as fortunate as you. Try this to obtain some perspective:
www.globalrichlist.com/
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Nothing to do with it. If £10 is a huge amount of money to you what happens when given the choice of, say, a proper repair or a badge at £30 less..
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Yes,its okay saying that a bigger car is better value (it is) and its safer (probably) and that viewed over a period of time, costs work out to be similar due to lower purchase price of a bigger car off-setting the extra fuel/insurance/maintenance costs etc etc
but!
MOST people look at their bank account and say I can afford XXX amount to buy a car - what can I get for this XXX amount. Generally you dont say Oooh I'll save 800 quid and buy a bigger car - you buy the car that suits you best in the first place cos thats how you're thinking and you have preferences.
Supposing you did buy the big Mondeo for a grand. The extra 800 quid (say) you havent spent on the smaller car gets absorbed in to running your house/holiday/kids whatever becouse its in your account to spend.
For MOST people, once the darned thing is bought, and the purchase price forgotten about, every other expense is a distress purchase - in other words, tyres,fuel exhausts,insurance,brakes thats paid for with reluctance when the bill comes up. Thats how the majority of people pay for car expenses - as they go along - they generally dont look at whole life costs.
A clutch in an old mondeo will really give your monthly budget a bad hair day.
MichaelR - it isnt about scrabbling around for the last tenner and being skint its about month by month budgeting to run a car and in this sense it WILL be cheaper to run a small car.
An analogy:
My car (according to the trip computer) is averaging 27MPG but I know full well that over the last tank full I'm really doing 20MPG because my driving is now all urban whereas my average is calculated over mixed driving.Its all about over how long you look at it what the average MPG is.
What I'm trying to say is that car expenses can average out similar over a long term, but short term month by month its a very different picture where a small car will leave more spare cash. . Most people who want a small car want small out goings
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"what happens when given the choice of, say, a proper repair or a badge"
I do it myself. I don't use badgers.
Edited by J Bonington Jagworth on 18/10/2007 at 09:22
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I dont like sharing roads with people so skint
If only you were broad-minded enough to realise how arrogant and conceited that comment sounds. Not many university students can afford to run a BMW. I ran a 16y/o Sunny, and had it purely because I needed a car, as do many of the horrible "skint" peasants that your Beemer has to share roads with. I apologise for my presence on the road, as it appears people with less money than yourself have no right to be on them.
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If only you were broad-minded enough to realise how arrogant and conceited that comment sounds. Not many university students can afford to run a BMW. I ran a 16y/o Sunny and had it purely because I needed a car as do many of the horrible "skint" peasants that your Beemer has to share roads with. I apologise for my presence on the road as it appears people with less money than yourself have no right to be on them.
Thats NOT what I meant and you know very well it's not what I meant. My comment was purely from a safety perspective. Even the cheapest of cars costs money to run - money which I think its fair to say may not be available if you are counting the tenners. Obviously it's fine in this case as the husband maintains the car to a high standard.
But it makes you think - every day on the roads there are thousands of people whose husbands do NOT maintain their cars for them and they genuinelly ARE trying to scrape together that last tenner yet still try to run a car. A car that isn't properly maintained is dangerous to all road users and you can't maintain a car if you are looking under the cushions for £10 at the end of the month.
I don't care whether people drive a Hyundai or a Rolls Royce provided they can afford to keep it on the road safely. If they cannot, they should not.
Surely you see my point now?
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You're missing the point - you CAN maintain a car on a very low budget. I currently don't have much money to my name, and live within my means. I rarely set foot in a main-dealer's premises, I buy budget tyres, and I service the car myself. AFAIK it's just as safe as it'd be had I spent silly money keeping it running.
As regards danger - I'm much more concerned about the 10% of drivers who don't have insurance. I'd rather hit an insured Daewoo Nexia that's held together with gaffer-tape than an uninsured Rolls Royce that's been repaired sparing no expense.
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"you know very well it's not what I meant"
Not sure we did, actually. Student+BMW330=private income, no? That's fine by me, but please don't lecture the rest of us about running costs!
I accept your general point about standards of maintenance, but I think you'll find that many DIY-fettled bangers have more attention to their oily bits than most shiny extended-service-interval repmobiles. That may be borne of necessity, but at least the banger owners know how to read a spark plug and where the brake fluid lives.
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"I apologise for my presence on the road"
Me too. My BMW's only got two wheels...
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"apparent parking skills"
Wasn't there a proposal to penalise people who parked more than 18" from the kerb? It seemed reasonable to me, although I'd be tempted to make it half that... :-)
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>>Supposing you did buy the big Mondeo for a grand. The extra 800 quid (say) you havent
>>spent on the smaller car gets absorbed in to running your house/holiday/kids whatever
>>becouse its in your account to spend.
No. Because many people scrabbling around on the breadline will end up borrowing the money for the new car. It probably won't be a planned purchase, their last old car will have died. So they find out how much money they can borrow. If finding £40 for a new tyre is such a problem, I guarantee that there won't be a spare £800 sitting in any bank account to spend on the new car.
And then they spend that much on the car because they think the more they spend on the car the more reliable it will be. And they think that a small car will be better value than a large one. They are probably wrong on both counts.
in this sense it WILL be cheaper to run a small car.
No. No, and again no. It may be many things, but whatever it is, it is not cheaper.
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I'm trying not to keep carping on about this, but to put Michael R's mind at ease: The car IS adequately maintained, paid for by the hubby. The £10 a week is purely the wife's budgeting for petrol.
This couple aren't on the breadline - they're just careful with their money.
And come to think of it, I know *another* two couples who operate 2-car families in a very similar fashion. And in both cases both their cars WERE bought with cash sitting in their bank accounts - no loans.
And perhaps they had that money sitting in their accounts because they *weren't* paying monthly amounts back on loans.
MM - It's NEVER cheaper to run a small car?
Hey, I don't know why we aren't all enjoying the performance, refinement, toys, and safety (if you wear your seatbelt) of running mid-90's Lexus LS400s and S-Class Mercedes...
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MM your constant assumption that large cars are cheaper than smaller ones when you set a budget in your title is baffling me.
I have £2,000 to spend on 2 cars. I buy a £1,000 Fiesta and a £1,000 V6 Mondeo.
Please explain to me how the larger Mondeo is cheaper than the Fiesta?
You can then also explain to me how a tonne of feathers is lighter than a tonne of lead :-)
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I have £2 000 to spend on 2 cars. I buy a £1 000 Fiesta and a £1 000 V6 Mondeo. Please explain to me how the larger Mondeo is cheaper than the Fiesta?
It's not, but £1k buys a tidy P reg Fiesta. However, to get a tidy P reg Mondeo, you need only £500. Perhaps thats his point.
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>>MM your constant assumption that large cars are cheaper than smaller ones when you set a budget in your title is baffling me.
Think I've just worked out what you mean.
My title, were there the space, should perhaps have read "why would you want to spend 1-2k on a small car when you could spend 0-1k on a larger car that would, in fact, cost barely any more to run and would give you a better motoring experience"
Right, enough wittering from me.
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I have to side with MichaelR
I paid a rock bottom 2,700 for a four year old 406 V6. I knew it was going to be thirsty but since the equivalent with a diesel engine was thousand of pounds more I figured it was going to be a decade or so before the money I'd saved on the price was lost on the lower mpg. Plus I get all the fun that goes with a V6 thrown in.
My other philosphy on fuel is I don't care how much it uses so long as I don't have to fill it more than twice a month.
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Maybe because the cheapest S class on autotrader is £1,500, so a great deal more expensive than the suggested budget; with it's excessive tyre consumption of expensive tyres it is probably not the world's best choice.
And HJ tells us that a set of tyres and a new exhaust system for that Lexus is £2,500.
Not good choices of car for the economic and not the comparison to which I was referring as well you know! ;)
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>MM your constant assumption that large cars are cheaper than smaller ones when you set
>a budget in your title is baffling me.
Like wot Michael said.
You have £1,500 to spend on motoring over the next three years.
You can spend £500 on a T-reg Mondeo, and have £1,000 to spend on petrol, servicing, tax, insurance.
Or spend £1,400 on a P-reg Fiesta and have £100 to spend on petrol, servicing, tax, insurance.
At the end of three years you get £50 for either car at the scrapper.
Now, explain to me again, why I should prefer the older Fiesta over the newer Mondeo?
Interestingly I started a thread on "how do you decide how much to spend on a car" recently. I think that at the cheap end of the market people spend too much money, money inefficiently.
Edited by Mapmaker on 18/10/2007 at 12:24
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"More than the suggested budget"
-Eh? £1500 is exactly in your original post's price span.
I know it's not the comparison with a £500 Mondeo; it's the whole thing scaled-up: Why buy a £4.5k Focus when you could have a £1500 LS400.
A) Because of the ongoing, and potential, running costs
B) Because you don't want such a big vehicle.
QED.
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An LS400 is too far the other way and it's also not cheaper - you can't get a 51-02 plate LS400 for £1500, you can get such a Focus for £4.5k.
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You can get a P reg Fiesta for about £600, too. No need to spend £1400.
But I admit if you really are going to plan your next 3 years' motoring "up-front" like that, there is logic in it.
Comes down in the end to "Because you don't want a vehicle that big" then.
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" An LS400 is too far the other way "
Absolutely, you don't need a luxury brand - a fully loaded version of a standard saloon will give comparable parts and servicing costs as the base model.
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I'm convinced.
Next time I see my mate I'll tell him to get rid of that Micra and replace it with a fully-specced-up diesel automatic Laguna.
;-)
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We ruun a 106 diesel for peanuts.
RFL is £105. Insurance is £105. Mot and servicing is c £200pa.(DIY but odd tyres/balljoints etc)
And 4,000 miles at 50mpg = approx £360.
Forgetting depreciation total cost = £770. PER YEAR
A 2 litre Mondeo?
RFL around £150. Insurance £200plus.
MOT and servcing £300 (it will cost more cos it's bigger and heavier)
4,000 miles at 35-40mpg say 37 = £485
Total cost £1135 PER YEAR
So a small car costs around £365 PA MORE - or £1 per day.
Leaving aside other issues , a small car is CHEAPER to run.
madf
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"Leaving aside other issues"
But two of those are that larger cars last longer and depreciate less, which often more than offsets the extra running costs.
I should add that although I have made this sort of point at various times here, it doesn't mean I have anything against small cars. Mrs JBJ's 323GT is a hoot to drive, but I suspect that the Xedos will live longer...
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But two of those are that larger cars last longer and depreciate less
Provided you buy them late in life. I pity anyone who's ever bought a brand-new Hyundai Sonata! As I said in my spiel about not selling the OP an aircraft carrier when she's gone looking for a shopping trolley, some people buy small cars because of the benefits, others buy older large cars because of their benefits.
It's all down to perceptions. Small cars are shopping trolleys, and will be used as such until they die - they're always perceived as useful despite age. Even when its shopping days are over, a 17y/o will come along and torture it all the way into the scrapyard.
Large cars are often rep-mobiles to begin with, after which they might be a family car for a few years. Mr Family-buyer trades it in for his next 3y/o ex-fleet car, and then it's redundant. Cue Mr Bangernomics to give the poor trader a few pennies to take it off his hands.
If you want a huge car, buy one and take advantage of its perceived redundancy. If you want a small car, pay more, and get more back when you flog it on to a recently-passed driver.
Why the big debate?
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"Why the big debate?"
It's what we all log in for.
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"not selling the OP an aircraft carrier when she's gone looking for a shopping trolley"
Just a small aircraft carrier, then..? :-)
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£1 a day. A whole £1 a day is all you save for having to put up with a pokey, tiny little 106 with no electric windows, no comfort features, nothing. Just a pound.
Thats half a cup of coffee from Starbucks. You will wipe out your entire weeks savings if you buy a takeaway pizza.
Is it really worth torturing yourself in a heap of junk for that? I can't think of a car worse than a 1.5 diesel 106.
Yuk.
Do you guys stay in 1 star hotels on holiday as well becuase hey - you could save a whole £5 a night?
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I thought you liked cars? The BMW sounds like a great car - good choice. But why slag off someone elses car choice? If you cant see the virtue in itself of the little diesel 106 versus a big petrol engined BMW then I suggest you get some real life experience of different cars.
Right, I'm off to pick up Grandma in my Humvee.
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Right I'm off to pick up Grandma in my Humvee.
LOL davidh ;-) One of the most "fun" cars I've driven was an old Pug 205D. Excellent handling, and very nippy around town. Horrible on the motorway though, purely because of all the pink fluffy dice on safari in their Cayennes and X5s, which must be about 4 times as big. Never felt so vulnerable in my life. It was incredibly slow, but very entertaining to drive. I missed that feeling when I traded the prehistoric Sunny in for the Almera. The Almera handles better and it's got more guts, but it's lost the entertainment that comes with the feeling that you're driving a go-kart.
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I thought you liked cars? The BMW sounds like a great car - good choice. But why slag off someone elses car choice? If you cant see the virtue in itself of the little diesel 106 versus a big petrol engined BMW then I suggest you get some real life experience of different cars.
Versus a big BMW? Who said anything about that? Such a comparison would be meaningless and unfair. I was comparing it with the alternative mentioned in the guys figures, a cheap Mondeo.
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Such a comparison would be meaningless and unfair.
Why? The point being made was that both have their virtues. If you want to drive a refined, thirsty 6-cylinder, buy the Beemer. If you want 60mpg and enjoy the rustic driving experience (which many do), buy the Pug. A true motoring enthusiast would be able to drive both and appreciate the good points each had on offer, rather than dismissing the less luxurious car despite having never driven one.
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Firstly, the two choices presented in the figures were an old Mondeo or an old 106. Thus, I compared the 106 directly to the Mondeo. Not what I happen to drive, which has no bearing on the situaiton.
Secondly, do not make assumptions based on what I have and have not driven or you end up being wrong. I have driven a 106. It was horrid.
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"a fully-specced-up diesel automatic Laguna"
There are exceptions.. :-)
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>>No. Because many people scrabbling around on the breadline will end up borrowing the >>money for the new car. It probably won't be a planned purchase, their last old car will >>have died. So they find out how much money they can borrow. If finding £40 for a new >>tyre is such a problem, I guarantee that there won't be a spare £800 sitting in any bank >>account to spend on the new car.
Hang on a minute.
If you're skint and have scrabble round for money and borrow it to purchase a 1 to 2 K car surely the monthly payment just compounds your tight budget? Then theres loan interest (if you really want to go that far in calculating costs over several years)
I know full well there isnt spare cash in a skint persons budget so there wont be 800 quid floating about - we were talking about a budget amount so I was naive in assuming you had allowed for a set amount of money to be available.
It must be great to have the fore sight to have "look how much I've saved on purchase price of my larger car to put towards other car bills" bank account.
And a whizzy excell spreadsheet to show you how to release the spare cash as you go along...
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"calculating costs over several years"
That, of course, is what fleet managers do, both when selecting vehicles and deciding how long to run them.
That's why many of 2008's fleet drivers will end up in 1.5 litre diesel Lagunas serviced at 20,000 mile intervals, and why 1.6 litre Alfa 156s were so commonplace on Irish fleets when they came out first. Because they were the most cost effective solution.
Yet neither Renault DCI engines, Alfas or long-interval service regimes meet with much approval here in the Backroom. Its a question of horses for courses. So why not just buy and run what suits your circumstances?
I can't help wondering, either, what would happen the motor trade if private buyers took the same whole-of-life cost approach to buying and running a car that fleets do? Once the shock of seeing that cost in black-and-white subsided, there might be some marked changes in buying habits!
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I'm sorry, MichaelR, you are talking nonsense.
Because ;)
If madf's small car costs an extra £1,000 capital over a three year period in depreciation, (which is broadly the assumption we're running from) then that's covered almost exactly his £1 per day additional running costs.
So you don't have to give up on half a Starbucks. You just have the pure delight of running a bigger, nicer car - instead of an uncomfortable tin can for FREE!!!
So, Davidh, you don't need an Excel spreadsheet to prove it. madf has proved the theory above. All you have to do is to believe that it works.
There are two further, as yet unmentioned, bonuses. Firstly a £500 car runs on TPFT but a £1500 car either runs on fully comp or gives you a huge exposure. Secondly if the engine blows up on the cheaper car you can afford to write the car off. On the more expensive car, you have to pay the garage bill.
>>so I was naive in assuming you had allowed for a set amount of money to be available.
No. The whole point of this exercise was to model the type of poster who comes on here telling us they have a budget of [not very much] and so feel they will make a saving by running a 'tiny' car. Often enough, they're borrowing the money - like the guy last week who was starting a new job and had 7k 'to spend'; most of which was borrowed.
Edited by PoloGirl on 18/10/2007 at 16:12
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Interesting thread, many good & interesting made on all sides of the discussion. So it's a shame when it degenerates into emotive & derogatory rebuttals. It's really not necessary.
Edited by PoloGirl on 18/10/2007 at 16:12
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"that unpleasant atmosphere "
I must have a very thick skin.
I don't see that. A degree of overenthusiasm for a point of view perhaps.
But frankly, compared to other sites (I refer specifically to politics/most other car sites are for chavs:-) this place is a haven of politeness, knowledge and courtesy.
If someone cares to rubbish my posts, I KNOW they are wrong.. so I don't care:-)))
madf
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"compared to other sites .. this place is a haven of politeness, knowledge and courtesy"
I quite agree! I even suspect that Mapmaker started this thread to take a bit of the heat off Fairylights (who was probably getting more advice than she really needed) and thus allowed a more open-ended debate on the same subject.
Some of us have thicker skins than others, of course, but I think the judicious use of smileys makes a big difference. This always seems a pretty civilised place to me...
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I think Woodbines says it all really - even I, who isn't normally interested in these long debates, have been enjoying this thread. Lets keep it that way and not descend into personal insults, emotive language etc.
Thanks
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Sorry, if that's referring to my comment to MichaelR, then I thought it was pretty obvious that it was completely tongue in cheek as it not only agrees with him, but it takes his reasoning even further to its logical conclusion!
Perhaps it wasn't apparent. May I make it quite clear that my comment to Michael, describing his argument as just plain wrong (or whatever I said) was entirely supportive of his point of view, and entirely tongue in cheek. Ther was a smiley to show it too, as I know that irony doesn't necessarily come over the web very well.
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I think the thing is, here, that really we should only be considering the likes of £500 Mondeos or similar vehicles which have a reputation for being reasonably reliable and for which parts and servicing are cheap.
Once you start considering automatic Lagunas and Citroen Xantias and obscure Hyundai models, you have at least the potential for things to go wrong and leave you stranded and/or be expensive IF you're going to fix them.
And although they do typically demand a bit of a premium, there's no need to be spending near £2k to get an 'equivalent' small car: Your 'equivalent' Fiesta can be had for about £600, and will come with an airbag, and quite possibly power-steering.
So if someone wants to spend £1-2k on a small car, advise them instead to consider either a £500 Mondeo or a £600 Fiesta. The Mondeo will be faster, safer and more refined, but the Fiesta will cost less to tax, fuel, insure, and for consumables like tyres and brake discs. And be able to fit into smaller parking spaces, at home or afield.
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I'd never advise anyone to buy a £600 Fiesta, just in case they crashed it, and it disintegrated into a pile of rust. Mondeos aren't as bad for rust, but any corrosion-free car will be far safer than a rustbucket of any size. Anyone see the P-reg Escort on Rogue Traders lastnight?
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AGree about rust. 106/Saxo are miles better than Fiesta on rust...
Lots worse on maintenance...
madf
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If it was so simple as this - why wouldn't everyone be running a banger at £1K?
There is more to life than sheer economy. Why do peole aspire to better houses/jobs?
It is progress and it is here to stay.
So those who want to keep with bangers will, and those that spend their( or their company's) money on cars will.
Best to have one nice car and one cheapo for leaving in car parks. That way you have bith options, without too much cost.
My Modeo 2l tax is £215pa, ins £380, feule 30odd mpg, but nice to go on a proper journey with. My 1.3 Skoda tax 115 ins 160 is fine for nipping to town and leaving in car parks at supermarkets amonst the other sometimes moronic drivers that seem to drive by feel.
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