Which engine is in the Cavalier? Is it the 8 valve or the Ecotec 16 valve?
Looking at HJ's car-by-car breakdown, a 16v seems prone to all sorts of problems. Would one be worth even considering?
I'm a little concerned about economy/breakageness of both cars, TBO, but I've got to get another car rather soon!
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>> Which engine is in the Cavalier? Is it the 8 valve >> or the Ecotec 16 valve? Looking at HJ's car-by-car breakdown, a 16v seems prone to all sorts of problems. Would one be worth even considering? I'm a little concerned about economy/breakageness of both cars, TBO, but I've got to get another car rather soon!
I've run the 16v 2 litre jobbies in Omegas for over 100K miles in the last 3 yars without much too much hassle, but I'd rather have the old 8V given the choice. In terms of economy the 2 litre in the Omega manages 30 on short trips and 37 plus on my mostly motorway commute, so should do slightly better in the Cavalier with skinnier tyres and less weight.
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A just about perfect appraisal of the merits of the Vauxhall Cavalier as I've seen! I see the new 2008 Vectra replacement won't be called Vectra so just call it Cavalier over here & they've got it sorted.
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Myself I'd go with the Cavalier if it's an 8 valve.
Can someone confirm if I'm correct in thinking this would have the old style Vauxhall clutch? You know like the MK2 cav and nova that could be changed in less than half an hour by an experienced mechanic.
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I have found older Japanese cars to be moneypits, as the Japs only design cars to last 5 years and be disposable.
Maybe the Europeans do too, to some extent, but there is much better availability of reasonably priced spare parts.
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>>Can someone confirm....
It's unlikely. Sometime in 92 - 93, someone in Opel listened too much to their NVH department, and they fitted a so-called pot flywheel, which makes clutch removal without gearbox removal impossible. One of many large leaps backward which they took, perhaps the biggest being to launch the Vectra.
Number_Cruncher
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[Quote]I have found older Japanese cars to be moneypits, as the Japs only design cars to last 5 years and be disposable.[/Quote]
I beg to differ! Japanese cars are built to last forever, while American cars are meant to be thrown after 5 years!
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Nice to see the art of wild generalisation is still alive and well, Ashok! ;-)
My advice is to consider seriously the relative merits of the 8v and 16v Vauxhalls - then wake up and buy the Honda.
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I wouldn't disagree in principle that the Honda is less likely to break than the Vauxhall, but of course that doesn't mean every Honda goes on forever, or that every Vauxhall breaks if you look at it funny ;-)
At 12years old I think the the previous service history will play a part in reliability as well.
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>>Can someone confirm.... It's unlikely. Sometime in 92 - 93, someone in Opel listened too much to their NVH department, and they fitted a so-called pot flywheel, which makes clutch removal without gearbox removal impossible. One of many large leaps backward which they took, perhaps the biggest being to launch the Vectra. Number_Cruncher
Was it pot or pop, i.e a "pop flywheel"? I had a 1.7 TD Cav from new in '93 and had a problem with the clutch from new, once fixed the car was totally reliable, excellent on the m/way and rather boring otherwise. This of course was an Izuzu engine so may have had a different spec clutch from the 2.0 petrols.
Re the merits of 8v / 16v, a healthy 16v is much crisper and is a joy to rev, the 2.0 in the Vectra from late '95 (somewhat later in the Astra and Calibra) also had variable length intake manifold which gave it loads of midrange, a great motor. The 8v was though more gutsy at low revs. below 2000/2500.
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My father first and then I ran what had started out as his company 2.0 8v CD. Lots of M-way miles, but it gave 40mpg when driven sensibly on medium or longer runs, all through its life. usual rear wheel arch rust, but well-appointed and solidly built for its generation. Last seen still going at 170k.
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I remember them being called pot flywheels in the workshop, but I've never seen that written in Vauxhall's technical descriptions, so it may not be the "correct" name for them. The difference was, that instead of having a subsantially flat flywheel, the outer rim was thickened up, and the clutch driven plate, and the pressure plate sat inside this rim, making removal out of the opening below the gearbox impossible - at this time, the two piece gearbox input shaft was also made solid. Those 2 piece input shafts, handling the full engine torque can't have been a cheap part to make.
IIRC, the 16 valve ecotec engines of this era aren't the most robust, and many have cylinder head problems. The 8 valve engines are far more robust. Although until Cheddar's post, I had forgotten to mention the Isuzu based diesels, which are really good engines, and I would recommend one.
Number_Cruncher
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At 12 years old, so much will depend on how well (or not) the cars have been maintained.
Both will need ongoing TLC and the parts for the Cav will surely be cheaper and easier to get hold of. I would go for one off those.
A neighbour had an Aerodeck of about that vintage when new and did a tremendous mileage in it in a short space of time, but I seem to recall that he had corrosion problems (but then it was kept near the sea).
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The Vauxhall will have, more than likely, cheaper repair bills, for general maintainence, parts wise, assuming nothing serious 'goes'. Also, a good chance that you'll still be able to get even cheaper genuine parts, if you've a firiendly mechanic, that belongs to Vauxhall Trade Club. (Override discounts for parts from main dealer - free for mechaincs/repairers to join).
Oil filters for a quid - bet the Honda one's are more!!
So, not the Honda in my opinion.
VB
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OK, so, of expressed opinion, I have Honda 2, Vauxhall 2.Bother, being a part-time wet and a weed, I was hoping
for a completely one-sided vote. I'm seeing the Honda tomorrow, and the Vauxhall on Wednesday. I still have no
concrete idea of what the vendor wants for the Honda, maybe that'll decide it. £500 is a little more than I wanted
to pay, so if it's more..... I must say, that my head says Vauxhall, but perhaps, if I ignore that, the Honda might be
good for a giggle, auto (will I hate it?), leather.... but oooh! *The thirst!* I are currently impoverished, you see.
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Another vote for the Cavvy from me (though the tow bar may be a worry - what has it been towing?)
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>>as the Japs only design cars to last 5 years and be disposable.<<
That was true of the original Nissan Micra - but definitely not of a Japs in general and certainly not Honda.
Honda's are without doubt one of the best engineered cars on the market and most models were built to last and very few makers can compete with them on reliability and durability.
This was particulalrly so when MB decided it was not in their best financial interests to make good cars anymore.
With regular oil changes you should get 300K-400K miles form the engine.
I read in so many different forum of extremely high mileage Honda cars that still feel liek new.
Is it 15million vtec engines made without a single failure ?
You probably have guessed that IMO it's the Honda as my advice.
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Cavalier must be a better bet for cheap or even secondhand spares. There can't be a scrappy in the country that hasn't got one. How many will have the right Honda?
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>>How many will have the right Honda?<<
That's true - that last so long they rarely make it to the scrappers.
(I'm teasing now - by the way)
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Cavalier without question - if it's the 8v (and 16v is not that bad i.e. if it's survivied this long....) Easy to fix, loads of parts, every self respecting mechanic knows them, quite simply it's a latter day Morris 1000 - and you can even sell bits of it when it coraks. Even a broken mirror housing on the Honda may write it off. You'll find plenty of bits for the Cav at your scrappie or on Fleabay. Oh and it's a known quantity to insure (i.e. cheap) and its not an automatic.
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>>as the Japs only design cars to last 5 years and be disposable.<< That was true of the original Nissan Micra
That'll be why 30% of the original Micras are still on the road then!
Having had an old 8v Cavalier, and currently in ownership of an old Nissan that's older, and has more miles on the clock than the (well maintained) Vauxhall, I don't know what all the fuss is about with the Cav.
Yeah it's fairly solid, but as it gets older it falls to pieces IME. The Nissan has a few rattles, but the engine at 14 years old is still quieter than 80% of the newer cars on the road and hasn't given any trouble whatsoever in the coming on for five years we've had it.
Jap cars not built to last? BS.
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I don't know what all the fuss is about with the Cav.
Wait until clutch change time and you'll see the advantage of having a Cavalier.
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>> I don't know what all the fuss is about with the Cav. Wait until clutch change time and you'll see the advantage of having a Cavalier.
... which is immediately offset by the cambelt changes. And the bits of trim that fall off. And the front springs that it goes through like no-one's business.
But yes, I can save £100 on the clutch.
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... which is immediately offset by the cambelt changes
The 8v cambelt is an easy DIY change.
And the bits of trim that fall off. And the front springs that it goes through like no-one's business.
I ran two 2nd hand mk3 Cavaliers that were around 3 yrs old before I got my hands on them. I ran one of them for a further 4 yrs, the other for a further 3 yrs before selling them on to someone else to benefit from their life left in them. Not once did any trim fall off or require replacement springs during ownership.
But yes, I can save £100 on the clutch.
And loads of time in changing it. 40 mins with a couple of tea breaks thrown in.
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NC I am sure you are right, I had "pop" in mind though reckon "pot" is correct .
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Cavalier every time, although I suspect the GLSi will be a 16v. Most of the parts that break on these are getting cheap now, the last cam sensor I bought for my Omega with this engine was 30quid, set of HT leads was 27 quid from local motor factor.
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A good Cavalier will cost pennies to run with cheap parts but for £495 it should be near enough mint.
Likewise I wouldn't consider a neglected Honda with "issues" (far too much to put right) but a well maintained one is very desirable and tough. Chain cam as well I think whereas the Cavalier could well need a precautionary belt change - which would be expensive on a 16v.
Buy on condition and be fussy if neither is right - the Cavalier is too expensive if it has problems and the Honda will never be right if it does.
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Honda 2.0 and 2.2 at that age are cambelts, but I don't think it's an issue - I never heard of a Honda that popped one.
The 4-speed auto with switchable sport mode is nice to drive and generally reliable. My 2.0 auto never returns less than 35mpg and, at 117k, drives as sweetly as it did 4 years and 50k miles ago when I bought it.
Also, at 15 years old this month, the body is spotless, so if the one you look at is anything other than that I guess it's evidence of neglect in the past.
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Well, the Honda:
A nice looking car, but:
A few dings and flakey bits on the paintwork. Windscreen rubber at top broken in two places, held by tape, no water ingress apparent around the glued-in screen.
Underside at rear has some rust, to rear/under of read passenger footwell. I thought these things were galvanised, maybe not.
A bit of a rattly engine (?) during a short run of about a mile.
One rear window jammed (motor moves it 1/4" up/down).
Exhaust replaced last August (mid/rear sections)
141K miles, cam belts due - £££?
Alloy wheels rather less than pristine. Some corrosion on bead seating area requires pressure check weekly.
ABS light on, apparently not an MOT issue.
A number of tears and scratches to seats.
Aircon said to work.
Front winker/foglight(?) plastic lens cracked.
Side-light (?) lens nearside full of condensation.
Front tyre tread a bit thin, both sides.
At £600 and needing cambelt, maybe out of my budget, will have to think.
Any comments from people who know this model (or anyone!)?
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>>A bit of a rattly engine (?) during a short run of about a mile.<<
possibly not a problem with hydraulic tappets - but many hondas have solid tappets which would be expensive.
>>ABS light on, apparently not an MOT issue.<<
Not an issue? it's a failure and expensive to fix.!
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I was told that it wasn't seen during the MOT and had been like that for a couple of years (comes on after a minute or two from cold)!
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The ABS light puts the MoT in serious doubt. The engine is certainly running for more than 2 minutes in a typical test, and if the tester "didn't see it", what else didn't he see? If the ABS light doesn't come on with the ignition, go out after the self test period and stay out, it is an MoT fail.
Cambelt will need doing immediately (£150+)
Wheels / pressure loss will need sorting (£three figures)
Two tyres (£100)
ABS fault diagnosis and correction (£pick a figure, but you could be looking at the wrong side of £500 depending on where the problem lies)
And that's just to get it roadworthy. Walk away and don't give it another thought. Cars of this age and price will be cosmetically less than perfect, but you should expect basic roadworthiness.
Cheers
DP
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ABS light on, apparently not an MOT issue.
Avoid it and find another one, more then likely to be the pump which even a recon one is £350. Plenty others out there which would be better, this one sounds like a bit of a heap!!!
But the rear window could probably be sorted out with a good spray of silicone, thats how I did all mine.
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I agree with TU.
Avoid it and go for the Cav if these are the only 2 options.
Mind you - you need to give us some more info on the Cav when you see it Wed.
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Well, sorry - see what I said earlier re possible neglect!
Walk away as quickly as possible.
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As described the Honda is a dog. For £500 you should be able to find some old boy's pride and joy of a Cavalier, still with the original spare, and the little sticker in the rear window that says "We've been to Salcombe".
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"Cheap-to-replace ABS from 1994".
To quote HJ on the Cav in his CBCB
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Why only a Honda or Vauxhall? For £500, you could get some cracking cars with loads of life left, here's some alternatives about the same size as the Cav/Accord:
Toyota Carina E, Nissan Primera, Mazda 626, Mitsubishi Galant, Carisma etc
Cavaliers are very good, I had a 1990 SRi and it was quick and economical, but the Accord would be more reliable no question.
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Audi 80 perhaps, I bought a 2.0E L reg for 450 quid and it done me well for last two years
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>>Cavaliers are very good, I had a 1990 SRi and it was quick and economical, but the Accord would be more reliable no question.
As stated above, on 12 year old cars I suspect the previous service history is going to have a bigger impact on future reliability than whether it's a Honda or Vauxhall.
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As stated above, on 12 year old cars I suspect the previous service history is going to have a bigger impact on future reliability than whether it's a Honda or Vauxhall.
I agree. The Honda viewed by the OP was proof that Japanese build quality and reliability, good as it is, is no match for years of neglect and abuse (he reports an ABS fault, torn/tatty interior trim, "ticky" engine, dents and scrapes etc). In other words a list of faults that would comfortably exceed the value of the car if you were to correct them. Hence, they haven't been fixed by the current owner.
I firmly believe this is why the "fleet fodder" Fords and Vauxhalls don't have the same reputation for reliability in old age as the more expensive Germans and "owned from new by an old boy" Japanese. Not because the cars are inherently less well put together (although this can be true), but because they simply don't get looked after anything like as well. A 5 yr old Ford or Vauxhall is worth peanuts because of fleet oversupply, so they tend to end up in the hands of owners who either can't afford to maintain them properly, or see them as disposable, and spend as little as possible keeping them on the road through choice. No regular servicing is provided, and little faults left to become terminally expensive bigger ones. When they die, they're binned and another is bought. I'm willing to bet this happens to fewer sub 10 year old Passats and Accords than equivalent Vectras and Mondeos.
I have a near 100,000 mile Fiesta which drives superbly and is in possession of one of the most comprehensive service histories I have ever seen ("cost no object" main dealer servicing every year for 80k, and then serviced thoroughly by me ever since using OEM bits). Most at this age are lucky if they get their bonnet lifted at all between MOT's.
What I'm trying to say is that I suspect a well maintained Cavalier will be as reliable as a well maintained Accord, but you'll find more well maintained Accords because they're bought by different people for different things.
Cheers
DP
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...you'll find more well maintained Accords because they're bought by different people for different things.
True, but there were more Cavaliers to begin with, and the ones that have lasted this long are likely to be at the better-maintained end of the spectrum. Always liked the 88-92 Cavalier - especially the GL, which looked great in white with those seven-spoke wheel covers - and I wish I'd bought one when I had the chance. I think the 1992 facelift made it more complicated but not necessarily better - 16v engines, catalysts, airbags; all useful but more to go wrong at this age.
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Colleague at work has a K Reg Gallant. Engine mount went and it was off the road for 3 weeks waiting for the part. Wouldn't have that problem with a Cavalier. He now has a problem with the alternator and is waiting to see if it can be repaired. Again, if it were a Cavalier, a replacement (either recon or secondhand) could be easily obtained same day.
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Why only a Honda or Vauxhall? For £500, you could get some cracking cars with loads of life left, here's some alternatives about the same size as the Cav/Accord: Toyota Carina E, Nissan Primera, Mazda 626, Mitsubishi Galant, Carisma etc
Sorry, convenience/local only, + a somewhat dunder-headed lack of knowledge of what;s what on my part!
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As described the Honda is a dog. For £500 you should be able to find some old boy's pride and joy of a Cavalier, still with the original spare, and the little sticker in the rear window that says "We've been to Salcombe".
Well, I saw it.... it's not an Old Boy's P&J, but the chap seemed sympathetic to vehicles & lifestyle. Nice 6 mile test
drive, self passenger, ears open, some brm brm, some sedate.
Small patch (plating card size) on extreme rear of the underside of the n/s sill - why? Dunno. The rest of the sills
look fine, drains clear.
Inside the wheel arch (front) behind the tyres A1 by the look.
Rest of underside looks OK.
Small rust spot above windscreen rubber, where rubber meets paint. Um.
Neither of the front fogs work - explained, bulbs blew, CBA to fix as never use - wiring said to be OK.
Oil on exhaust front section between tubes. Smelly when hot. No sign of where from. Said to be from driving on
watery/muddy lane where splashes wash any oily deposits into this position.
Top of engine says "ECOTEC" (sp?). Reg. Cert. = Cav GLS 16V.
Few rattles and squeaks from passenger side dash, + hatchback?
Chappie says serviced yearly, 6-mo. visits to "Formula 1" for oil/filter.
Inside somewhat soiled. Steering wheel greasy/polished where held. Car seems to have been used regularly.
164K! miles!!
Same owner 5 years.
No heat shield over exhaust manifold "not an issue, they eat them, no point".
Tyres reasonable.
Pulls well. Given stick in 3rd. no sign of clutch slip. Not rattly.
Perhaps small vibration under power from n/s front somewhere? Unsure.
No lights on dash when driving - ABS appears to be connected. ABS untried.
Knickers. I forgot to look in the oil filler cap.
Rear box a little scabby.
Reg. 03/01/1995.
MOT Feb 08, Tax Aug 07.
Various new bits, including nice shiny "master cylinder".
Has toved caravan "once". Towbar ball covered tightly by rubbery cover, seemingly not removed remotely recently.
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