Sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find anything! My daughter has received a NIP and can't believe that she was where the notice says she was at the time it states, so she wants to ask for a photo.
Please can someone advise what the correct proceedure is for asking for a copy of the photographic evidence as she has to provide driver information by 08/12/06.
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It depends on where you are. Humberside states that the only way to get the photo is by going to court. Other places seem to send them out with the NIP.
Martin
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Have a look on www.pepipoo.com all the info you need! See also recent thread on here by DaveN regarding a very similar situation.
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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If it was me, I wouldn't say anything, as you haven't been cautioned under Police & Criminal Evidence Act. Just send the NIP back blank and write "See attatched" on it. Include a letter like the ones on www.pepipoo.com/
until the 11th hour and then send it recorded delivery.
Good luck.
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I wish I had as much faith as you Ashok....
The position is this. At the Conditional Offer stage ( pay £60/3points all over) there is no obligation on SCP to divulge and evidence whatsoever. This comes later before a Court case when all evidence has to be dislosed under disclosure rules.
However some SCP's are helpful and will send a photo even if they are not obliged to do so. I would consider writing back to say difficulty in establishing who the driver was and photo needed to help in this respect. May produce a result and assist and also rebut any suggestion clones vehicle involved.
Be aware that there is a 28 day deadline on the return of the S 172 Form to name the driver after which they can go into Court prosecution mode for speed/failing to name driver. If this happens and still have doubts then enter a Not Guilty plea and ask for all evidence before Court. Again bear in mind that if their evidence puts you down the creek without a paddle. CPS costs will add another £30 -50 to any fine imposed.
dvd
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I forget the details but isn't there a way of using the Data Protection Act to obtain copies of images held?
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yes DVD is quoting what the police would like you to know about the law, not the full story, and to be honest I do not think most coppers are trained in a more balanced view
Data Protection Act gives you an absolute right to the picture, and if you make a formal request for the picture USING THE CORRECT WORDING under the data protection act, then the police have to supply or they become the criminals, and you can then make a complaint of a crime against the police
However time limits applying to this, and potential time delays, may mean that you do not get picture quick enough using this route
There are ways of forcing disclosure of evidence prior to the trial so that you have sufficient time to consider the evidence, ways of phrasing this are available on the web
Sounds like you should study the Tiff case recently etc
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Using the Data Protection Act can be a bit iffy. Only the Data Subject in the photograph can ask to see the photo AFAIR so by asking for it are you saying it is you??
Martin
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Only politely request the photo's, usually two are sent, to assist in identying the driver. NO mention of evidence or anything else. This usually works and at present Cardif are relasing photo's without charge unlike some counties (£10 Admin charge ). Good Luck. Regards Peter
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Was it a forward facing camera? if not, the photo will be of no use to you.
You may have trouble getting a photo under the data protection because it is potential evidence, and different rules can apply.
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Dave N - forward or rear facing, the photo will confirm whether or not the reg plate has been cloned, which I think is the possible concern of the OP.
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Dave N - forward or rear facing, the photo will confirm whether or not the reg plate has been cloned, which I think is the possible concern of the OP.
That's true, as long as they haven't copied her plates onto the same colour and type of car! That would be the logical thing for them to do.
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Fortunately (?) she currently has distinctive damage to the rear of her car!
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Luckily the photos are quite a decent resolution, so even things like number plate layout, rear-window stickers and minor accident damage are easily visible.
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DP Act deals with personal data; FOI act deals with non personal data; Most public authorities are subject to both regimes. The police certainly are. IMHO when making a request you do not have to specify which act. The public authority should supply it whatever regime applies. If they supply the image and it is not you then they may have made an unlawful disclosure of the personal data of as third party. If it is you and is recognisable you have no leg to stand on. If you cannot be certain it is you then things get interesting.
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Cardiff will send photos if you ask for them. - you just have to either write to the safety camera partnership at the address given or phone them up. I believe there was a case in court where the defence was that as the police had not allowed him to view the photographs he was not able to use "due dilligence" to identify the driver - being prosecuted for failure to ID the driver - case dismissed IIRC. So I don't see why some have said that some forces will still not release the photographs?
There is the issue of not having been cautioned under PACE which AFAIK has gotten a lot of people off and as I am not a member of pepipoo I don't know if there are any cases that have been defended on this basis in the magistrates (who would no doubt find you guilty) or more importantly in the high court (on appeal).
Does anyone know if there have yet been any PACE caution based cases that have reached the high court? Have there been any cases to the magistrates (and presumably not appealed)?
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What does the photo show?
I ask because on the way to work yesterday I was flashed when doing about 5 miles an hour as I had pulled over on a two lane road to let a paramedic car (with lights on) go past. The camera flashed and I assume that the photo will show both cars.
But I have heard that sometimes they zoom in and show only the number plate. If this is the case how do I prove that I was not speeding?
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What I can't understand is why they don't supply the photo with the NIP. What purpose is served by making you fight for it?
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What I can't understand is why they don't supply the photo with the NIP.
For one thing, it adds to the cost.
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L\'escargot.
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The whole matter of the PACE issue is being ruled on shortly by the ECU Court of HR and their ruling may, or may not, be binding on the UK Hight Court who will rule when the EU court has. Anybody currently using the PACE route will, eventually, get a summons to a court hearing and they should apply for an adjournement, on the basis the matter is being ruled on by higher courts and that this ruling will affect lower court procedures, SFAIK.
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When my car was snapped by a Thames Valley Safety Camera Partnership mobile van, I didn't get a photo with the NIP. I wrote back to the address on the notice and asked politely for the pic as I genuinely didn't know who was driving the car at the time, and a copy of the photo arrived a few days later.
Cheers
DP
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Zippy. Only fixed camera falsh and fixed cameras do not zoom and the markings on the road are used to establish which vehicle triggered the camera. Regards Peter
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I think Zippy means the scamera dept enlarges the photo to show the number plate only.
Zippy,
You may be partially correct, to work out your speed you would need the full photos (2 of) (if fixed camera with road markings) and they may send a blow up of the car only - not the road markings.
If they sent a photo of just the no. plate you could argue that you need to see the full car in order to use due diligence to identify the car and the driver, just the number plate does not enable you to identify either the car or the driver.
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You may be right, but I thought the EC court case was about not signing the form.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/dorset/35166...m
This is slightly different from the PACE letter arguement which only came out as a way around it after the Idris Francis High court case. - which is about not signing the form.
The PACE letter is IIRC that you do sign a declaration identifying the driver but you include something along the lines "As I have not been cautioned under PACE I understand that this evidence is inadmisable in court and that you shall therefore not be using it to form the basis of a prosecution against the identified driver" The full version is on pepipoo somewhere.
So I'm not sure that Idris Francis is fighting on the idea that he was not cautioned. He refused to sign.
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If you are CONFIDENT that you were not involved I suggest you phone the safety camera partnership helpline (on the form). Tell them (politely) you catagorically deny that your car was involved and can they please first check that they have the registration correct and that the photo is of exactly the type and colour of your car and if they will accept photos of your car for comparison, as you believe it may have been cloned.
If they confirm they have the right reg - they MAY be willing to compare the photos' of any obvious differences.
I recently was sent a NIP - stating that my car reg and exact car type etc was speeding - where I knew I had not been, thus I suspected cloning, but not what I found out.
On asking the helpline to check the photo details I discovered they (some) don't as a matter of course check the registration has been read correctly initially, they just retrieve your details using the DVLA and issue the NIP.
Seems they don't check anything unless you question it, they are far too busy issuing NIP's
In my case they found they had misread the registration - and dropped the case, although it did take me about a month to extract this in writing with an apology.
Personally I found the whole NIP intimidating and was appauled by the lack of their quality control in not checking before issue.
When the Police state they have a photo of your exact car reg and model model, you sort of belive them - when in fact they have probably not checked this.
If it had been a local camera - I would prob thought I had done it and accepted it !
Good Luck
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I asked north wales police for a copy of the said photograph and they were very forthcoming as I have a company vehicle which is legally driven by various members of the family. The photo revieled that a male was driving a female passenger and the rear passengers in more detail. From a process of elimination it was clear who was driving.The copy I recieved was a colour print out from a pc with an apology for the not very clear picture but reminding me that the picture on their pc was better quality and could be enhanced if necessary.
The result was £60 plus speed awareness course.
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rustbucket (the original)
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What I can't understand is why they don't supply the photo with the NIP
Watch this space - London Authorities using CCTV to fine drivers are making video of the offence available on the web so the accused can see exactly what they have done.
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What I can't understand is why they don't supply the photo with the NIP Watch this space - London Authorities using CCTV to fine drivers are making video of the offence available on the web so the accused can see exactly what they have done.
Wiltshire do this, when you get the NIP, there's a reference number on the letter, so you can log into their website, use the unique reference number and see various pictures....quality was pretty good and easy to establish who the driver was........this was from a scamera van, parked under a flyover, in the shade on a bright sunny day
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