8< SNIP
Non motoring comments removed from this and several other posts.
Unfortuantely there *may* have been some motoring related subjects caught up in the cull. Sorry about that - DD
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Exxon have a well known and trenchant view on global warming (they don't believe in it and are widely believed to be a keen supporter of President Bush on that issue) and I would imagine a keen environmentalist would protest by not buying their fuel.
Agreed. You then go on to say
If that is correct then it would imo be fairly typical of most green campaigners who articulate badly and then come up with programs to reduce CO2 output by 50% in the next 4-8 years. If they came up with achievable programs (that did not cost as mmuch energy to produce as they save in a lifetime ) and which did not result in reducing the human population by 50% then they might have a chance. of persuading me to take action. But they remind me of the LibDems: propose anything knowing you will never have to implement it
How does the one statement lead to the other? I don't buy Esso. I don't have a solution for global warming either, but at least I recognise that it's a problem. Esso won't admit to the problem, so I'm not giving them my money. My choice.
It's good to have a choice, which brings me on to your flippant comment about the LibDems - Gordon Brown = Tony Blair. David Cameron = Tony Blair. Menzies Campbell = an alternative. My choice again.
CO2 emmissions need to be reduced. I try and do what I can. All the electricity in my house is provided by an offshore wind farm. I haven't found an ethical petrol company though. I mostly buy Shell - who have been suspected of suppling weapons to the Nigerian government in the past. There is a market for ethical petrol. Just because madf wouldn't buy such a product, doesn't mean no one else would. So it should be made available. Bio ethanol would be good - a 10% solution (E10) would increase my car's horsepower, but no one sells it outside of East Anglia.
Well, the car sticker did it's job, spawning this thread.
There now follows a load of posts about tree huggers. I love this bulletin board - so friendly. Yes, I am in Greenpeace. I also have a degree in Geography and have studied climate change, and don't like the patronising tone of this thread so far.
Phew. Time for a nice cup of tea and a sit down.
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'Shell - who have been suspected of suppling weapons to the Nigerian government in the past.' Oh purlease. Conspiracy nutjob alert.
'Yes, I am in Greenpeace.' All I needed to know. Greenpeace are not an environmental group they are an anti-west anti-industrialist pressure group. Proof. Brent Spar. Agreed by all the experts including the treehuggers own employed experts that the most environmentally friendly thing to do was tow it out and sink it in deep water creating an artificial reef. Greenpeace decided to throw its weight around and demand that it be brought onshore and dismantled by FAR the most environmentally damaging solution but hey if it means getting one over on the oil companies thats all right then? The Greenpeace campaign lead to amongst other things the firebombing of petrol stations in Germany. Very environmentally friendly.
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>>Like I say, we're screwed.<<
To be honest, I don't really care. Of course, you probably think that's ridiculously insensitive of me. In fact, there's a chance you could be right. But ice ages have come and gone without humans having any control whatsoever.
We can pass all the ridiculous laws we like. We can all buy tiny cars that are fuelled by Fairy up liquid and it will still happen.
We can tax whatver we want and it will still happen. China doesn't care, America doesn't look like it cares either but so what? They can't control it either.
In the grand scheme of things, humans and everything we build are tiny compared to the rest of the things going on. I suppose the fact that the dinosaurs roared loudly somehow attracted a meteor into the Earth and blew them all up.
You're probably reading this post now with your mug of coffee, fruit juice or in RF's case, a sherry and shaking your head in disgust. But other than making you feel better, being "environmentally friendly" (never understood that - it's not quantifiable is it - at what point does something become unfriendly?) won't make the slightest bit of different.
So, like I do with everything else, I'm going to stick my head in the sand and get on with life. It's worked so far.
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Protestors demonstrated at our local (Chesterfield) Esso for a number of years. Never very busy anyway.
Shut down and now closed as part of a general redevelopment.
--
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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"All the electricity in my house is provided by an offshore wind farm"
How does that work? you have your own or share of a community owned windfarm on a dedicated feed?
"I haven't found an ethical petrol company though"
Oil is a dirty business
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Scottish Power do a scheme where they guarantee to buy in at least as much renewable power as you use. I suspect that's where the poster was coming from.
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Scottish Power do a scheme where they guarantee to buy in at least as much renewable power as you use. I suspect that's where the poster was coming from.
Really? didnt know that. I wonder if they provide any auditing behind that. Should be failry simple like
"we have xxx consumers on scheme who consumed xx kwh"
"we have bought in xx kwh, from xyz renewable energy source."
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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"How does the one statement lead to the other? I don't buy Esso."
I was pointing out
1. Esso are well known for their anti global warming views
and 2.
It is possible the person with the anti Esso sticker was an envirnomental activist. I then commented on how many activists manage to preach a message in such a way it has NO chance of being heard becuase the impacts are so extreme they are unacceptable. I then compared that attitude to the LibDems who propose policies that are also (not just MY opinion) so extreme as to ensure not enough people will vote for them to be in power..in order to implement them.
Example 1.
About 2-3 weeks ago, I woke to some enivonmental Professor (??) seriosuly telling us we were all doomed unless we cut CO2 emissions by 50% in the next 5 years..otherwise CO2 levels will ballon out of control and the world will end etc. Now I have NO idea if that is true but even if it is (and it is not worthy of debate), the proposal of a 50% cut in CO2 levels in 4 years is totlly IMPOSSIBLE> Why? Because it would means closing most coal and gas fired power stations - in 4 years. As it is IMPOSSIBLE to replace these in that time, I assume half the population of the UK would suffer power balckouts and die in the winter... Becasue that is the LOGICAL CONCLUSION.. as is stopping most holiday flights /car journeys etc.
It just is NOT going to happen..
Example 2.
The LibDems are proposing a new system of taxation which amongst other things will mean RFL on Mondeo type cars rising to around £2000pa. And since the majority of the car owning polulace own cars of a similar size, what are the chances of them voting for such a measure..?
It is just NOT going to happen.
Such stooopid extreme campaigning leads one to believe the people who propose such measures do not understand how democracy works..
Bog standard claims he is green.. or attempting to be . Good for him/her He drives a petrol car!. Wot no diesel?
"Just because madf wouldn't buy such a product, doesn't mean no one else would."
No where did I say that. I actually happen to believe in green issues. But the extremism in which they are presented and the apparent ignorance of the effects of those measures (or hypocrisy?) shows me the people who suggest them don't live in the real world.
My attack on the petrol sticker is not on the message itself.. it's on the fact that much of the so called green campaigners don't really practise what they preach and really have no idea of the consequences if they did.
I recycle most of my waste, grow much of my own food (organically), and run small diesel cars..That does not mean to say I can't criticise those green campaigners who advocate measures that 30 minutes thought would show would only be effective if half the population dies..
(and would be responsible for their deaths).
madf
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Q: Why does a presumed green lobbyist have a sticker saying "I don't buy Esso" in the back window of his car?
A: Because Esso are a known brand name. A sticker saying "Don't support ABC Drilling and Refining Inc" won't mean much to the driver stuck behind him in traffic.
Same thing with McDonalds (claimed to be unhealthy - but hardly any more so than other, smaller, lesser-known fast-food chains?), Shell, Nike or any other company targeted by lobbyists. Big names are well known, so they target the biggest. Whether that's justified or not is another question entirely.
My question is, if the driver of this car is so opposed to Big Oil, why does he drive a car? Why didn't he take the bus instead and minimise his use of fossil fuel?
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Gromit,
Your point is well made. Esso is a known brand and accessible. There are service stations with the name on them for the enviromentalists to harass for example.
The real wild boys who for example will load up a knackered tramp steamer with toxic waste run it aground in Africa and run away (a more common occurrence than you would think) you have never heard of and probably never will.
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Thommo's raised a conspiracy nutjob alert, so I'd better quote my sources. The one about Shell importing weapons came from Greenpeace, which you won't like. archive.greenpeace.org/comms/ken/observer.html
TVM - My electricity comes from npower Juice. "Juice is generated from a number of renewable energy sources, primarily at North Hoyle Offshore Wind Farm. As a Juice customer, npower matches every unit of normal electricity that you use and feeds the same amount, generated from renewable sources, into the electricity network." www.npower.com/at_home/juice-clean_and_green/about...l
Back to madf:
I was pointing out 1. Esso are well known for their anti global warming views and 2. It is possible the person with the anti Esso sticker was an envirnomental activist.
Ah - the sort of logic that unearthed a witch in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Indeed the scare stories from extreme environmentalists are counter-productive. I see what you're saying now. There is some global warming though, and I believe we can do something about it. Esso doesn't. Hence I don't like them.
Example 2. The LibDems are proposing a new system of taxation which amongst other things will mean RFL on Mondeo type cars rising to around £2000pa. And since the majority of the car owning polulace own cars of a similar size, what are the chances of them voting for such a measure..?
Not one of their best policies, in my opinion. If they managed to succeed in discouraging oil use, their tax income would dry up, and they'd have to implement the 50% highest tax rate anyway.Bog standard claims he is green.. or attempting to be . Good for him/her He drives a petrol car!. Wot no diesel?
Nope - the petrol one was faster. Bio-ethanol would be even faster, but there's no demand, so it isn't produced. The reason why there's no demand is that few people would buy an ethanol engine until there's a supply. Something needs to kick start this one.
My attack on the petrol sticker is not on the message itself.. it's on the fact that much of the so called green campaigners don't really practise what they preach and really have no idea of the consequences if they did.
Point taken. I love debates like this - I get to read new ideas.
Suzuki Swift 1.5 GLX
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Global War-ming!
E$$O
C(sad face)2
etc...
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I haven't bought Esso since 1960 (well I couldn't then as I was a nipper). In fact none of our family have.
They bought some land to build a filling station and when fencing it off included half an acre of our back garden. It took two years to get them to dismantle their car wash and shift the fence back to where it should have been. Me, hold a grudge ;>)
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Back to the original question. I seem to remember these stickers were a part of a protest against fuel pricing, nothing to do with "green". Several emails were flying around suggesting that we all stopped buying Esso so they would reduce prices and others would then follow suit. Some bright sparks at the time suggested we did not buy petrol on certain days - which would have no effect as the petrol companies don't mind if you buy your petrol on Monday rather than Tuesday, as long as you buy it.
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