agreed.
Berlin transport is superb, cheap and reliable. Had a very enjoyable weekend with the wife there.
One complaint. the sign posting from Templehof Airport to the local S-Bahn station is appaling. One there tho its as easy to understand as a london underground map. Never got lost or stranded or delayed anywhere in Berlin.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I've been to Austria and Germany dozens of times. Found the public transport exceptional, especially Germany. Only had a severe delay once when someone committed suicide on the train line. Can't hold the train company responsible for that.
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It's a level of organisation, planning , management competence and investment that the powers that be in this country just wouldn't understand. Cheers DP
Tell me about it.
Just add 'rational behaviour by organized labour' to your list of qualities, and you can apply it to the success of the German car manufacturing industry compared to the British one.
British bolshiness, stubbornness and determined anti-intellectualism have much to recommend them in some areas. But not in this one.
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Another amazing thing in Germany is rescue response on the roads. You have crazy van flip over on M25 the traffic is blocked for half a day, if driver is dead road will be closed for days, taped across three lanes, pilgrimages, shrines, photo spots, theme parks with bouncers and tickets. In Germany getting traffic to move seems to be first priority after ambulance leave the place. If coroner has to be flown into the zone by helicopter, so be it, in,out, sweep the road, lift the wreckage, everyone move. Once in winter we were gridlocked in massive snow storm, autobahn closed for miles waiting for plow trucks to clear the route from opposite direction, within an hour there were numerous 4x4s with flashing lights driving on the side of the road offering hot tea, coffee and blankets...
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Somehow public transport appears not to be a political football in Germany or some other continental countries. Decade in decade out there is consistent investment and a public buy in to the "common good" rather than carping between interest groups on roadspace/subsidies etc....plus as far as I can tell no absurd expensive experiments in contracting out services that people see as public services....plus also the public sector workers do seem to do their job well and with pride (eg wearing uniforms tidily etc. being helpful etc.etc).
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I can only concure with the above comments.
I am in Germany for about 3 days each month (have been for the last 3 years or so) with work and travel to see clients all over the country.
On only one occassion have I had to hire a car as I could not fit in all my journeys on public transport.
Other than that if in one city for a few days the area travel passes are great value and take you a remarkably long way. As I recall in Berlin the day pass allows you travel on the S Bahn for about an hour and a half in any direction from the centre (S bahn is overground suburban services) all for 6.40Euros plus all the trams buses and U-bahn included.
Intercity services by ICE are fast and reliable coming back from Kassel to Frankfurt to Koln the first leg was delayed by snow but every service was held so no journeys were missed by anyone and we were only 20 minutes late into Koln.
Walkup fares for mainline rail are expensive on the day (but nowhere near as expensive as in the UK) but if bought at least by the day before are much much cheaper by up to 80%).
The stock and faciities are always clean and only once was I on a service that broke down and I was surprised to find that within 10 minutes a replacement train had appeared.
We have a lot to learn here and the Belgian Rail Services are very good as well.
As always
Mark
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..........I should have mentioned, in fairness, that there is an awful lot of grafitti on the underground (and elsewhere), but not once did I see an empty Big Mac polystyrene container on the floor, not were there coke cans or bottles rolling around.
One other thing..............cyclists! Did not see any run a red light, there were bike lanes galore and they seem to be well catered for. Damn, they seem to love their bikes. There were a lot of cycle hire places in Berlin and apparently cheap too!
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I lived in Hanover for a year in the late eighties. It is a city comparable in size to my native Leeds. The contrasts are amazing. Efficient trams that took me home in the middle of the night from the pub (pubs basically stay open until the last person goes home) and a weekly ticket for unlimited travel used to cost me 10 deutschmarks ( about 3 or 4 quid). The trams went over and underground in the centre and linked with buses and local trains.
Last year that prat Alistair Darling turned down Leeds' bid to build a tram system because at £500 million it "didn't offer value for money". It makes my blood boil. The government whinge on about us using our cars all the time but a major city like Leeds is still not deemed important enough to have a modern tram system. And even then it was only ever going to be three simple overground lines into the suburbs.
As and when the government introduces road charging across the country the centre of Leeds will doubtless die a death because people will not be prepared to pay the congestion charge and the alternative is to catch the bus which will still be stuck in traffic in the suburbs outside the congestion zone.
Germany may as well be a different planet it is so far more advanced than this dump of a country.
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Thats why I live in Dresden but unfortunately have to come to the UK for most of my work,I am always amazed when the Germans complain about public transport and the health service my wife included the problem is they have no knowledge of anything really bad to compare it against.
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vastly under rated country imo.
the average brit thinks Germany is a dirty backward place full of ignorant people and the truth is so far the opposite it is untrue.
They have such an organised system that people can just get on with their lives!
I dont know anybody who has been there who doesnt like it; but every body who hasn't has such anti views about the country.
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I dont know anybody who has been there who doesnt like it; but every body who hasn't has such anti views about the country.
I've spent quite a lot of time there through work, and as my post above suggests, have a very positive view of the place. The only repeated and consistent criticism I have heard from both native Germans and immigrants is that the authorities seem even more fond of bureaucracy than they are here.
That, and the language is a swine to learn! ;-)
Cheers
DP
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A lot of European countries seem to still have nationalised utilities and transport systems. No doubt they have to pay the taxes to support them however they seem to get a good service from them. Public transport was very good when we were in Switzerland. If the bus seemed to be late it was probably your watch that was wrong and the bus time that was right.
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I LOVE Germany. Adore the place. Clean, efficient, not expensive and for the most part very very beautiful. (Places and people).
My only misgivings are in parts probably what makes them so succesful! They are very hierarchical, inclined to snobbishness on a scale undreamed of by even the most ardent Margo and Jerry-alikes in the UK, and they LOVE rules. Especially the pointless ones. And I HAVE to say, older Germans have turned rudeness into an art form, even allowing for the abrupt Teutonic delivery that us stuttering Brits don't appreciate!!
But the company of younger Germans (and I am old enough that young is under 50!), in a bar or restaurant in a civilised city or town is a vision of what the UK should be like.
We'll never manage it. We're "too far behind" if you understand what I mean.
PS I went to a bierfest in July, in Würzburg. Everyone was drinking great Steins of beer, and getting absolutely WRECKED. Was there any trouble? Yes, I saw one domestic and some American GIs arguing. Did I feel intimidated? No. Could I get home on a tram at 3am? Yes.
Do I wonder why I am sitting in the UK, wishing I was there? Yes.....
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If you saw the Despatches programme last night about Commuting in Britain it was pretty obvious why we have such problems and it's been alluded to above - privatisation. Get on a train and you will make use of at least three different organisation's property - none of whom talk to each other and none of whom can make decisions about the whole network.
The Newcastle transport system was highlighted. 1980 the Metro opens, buses take passengers to metro stations, who then transfer to Metro for trip in to town. Fast, efficient, cheap, convenient, buses not running in to the city centre, all services integrated and run by the Council. Privatisation comes along and the whole of the Newcastle Integrated Transport Policy which took years and milions to develop ends up in tatters - no integration, no services and prices rise. Now buses only run on profitable routes, bus companies say the Metro is dangerous despite this not being the case. This negative publicity therefore ensures passengers continue to use the buses and the Metro becomes an expensive white elephant.
Until someone has ultimate control over the public tranport network it will never change.
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Get on atrain and you will make use of at least three different organisation's property - none of whom talk to each other and none of whom can make decisions about the whole network.
Our buses are the same in effect. We have a long road which has two bus routes running on it, one from one company, one from the other, each at half hour intervals, you would think 4 buses an hour therefore a bus every 15 minutes along that stretch; oh, no! The buses run five minutes apart so we have a 5 minute gap twice an hour and a 25 minute gap twice an hour. The local radio asked the companies why and were told that they are not allowed to consult each other in any way about their timetables as this would contravene the competition regulations as they would not then be seen to be competing but colluding, maybe but they would be better serving the public! You couldn't make it up could you.
The Newcastle transport system was highlighted.
I had a little experience of this system, IIRC it started as the North East Passenger Transport Executive in the early 70's or thereabouts, one of my friends at the time was involved in setting it up. The grand vision was that all buses and trains in the North East were to be co-ordinated by one overall authority to seamlessly integrate as far as practicable. He waxed lyrical about how this was the future for mass transit transport not only for this country but a leader for the world. Became a early sacrifice on the altar of the great gods of profit, competition and greed. Now we look around the world and see the same model working elsewhere and think, 'now why don't we do that?'
We now have a system which is barely fit for the third world. I've recently come back from a Greek island where the buses are cheap and crowded and not particularly comfortable BUT the first bus is at 07:00, the last bus is at 02:00 and they run every 15 minutes and EVERYONE uses them, including the man taking his goat to market but that's another issue!
One day we'll wake up and realise what we've done, but I'm not holding my breath.
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The closest I've seen to trouble during my visits to Germany was a bunch of very drunk football supporters stood outside the Hauptbahnhof in Hanover at about 1 in the morning wearing traffic cones on their heads, singing loudly and very appallingly, and doing some kind of very bizarre dance. It drew quite a crowd until the police arrived, and with both of the coppers getting out of the car clearly struggling not to crease up laughing, moved them on.
The other big think to strike me was walking through the city centre at 2am without seeing a single security grille or shutter on the shop windows. It's not something you are even aware you notice until they are not there.
Cheers
DP
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I was there in 1988 when it was still West Berlin. Although I wasn't driving, we were bussed around a lot and the traffic light system was explained to us. On the main roads from the outskirts into the centre of the city, there were gantries over the road holding up the lights. Next to the lights were small displays showing a number (30, 40, 50 etc). If you stuck to the speed shown then you would get green lights all the way. I thought it was a brilliant idea.
I'd love to go back now that the wall has come down. The difference from West to East Berlin was scary! We passed through Checkpoint Charlie (yes - it was real) into a different world. Trabants everywhere. Ladas were posh! Yet on the West side it was BMW, Mercedes and Porsche everywhere. Amazing city!
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You cannot tell the difference now there are so many new buildings and roads its amazing.The traffic flow system is still used we have a 5km long section in Dresden with stick to 50 and they are green all the way also in the east we have the green arrow allowing you to turn right at a red light providing its free of course. There are still a few trabants around but in very few numbers a lot of people keep them for nostagia we have a estate with a golf motor and discs brakes one of the last built its not registered at the moment it will just sit there forever .
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Just celebrated our 4 year anniversary here in Frankfurt, great city, great country, we´re enjoying it tremendously. I would echo all the comments above, and the new generation of Germans are such a mellow and likeable bunch you can´t help but feel the future of the country is in safe hands. No plans to return o the UK any time soon!! Andy B, let me know if you´re in Frankfurt anytime soon for a beer.
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I agree with all the above comments - which is why I am spending all my spare hours at the moment working out how I could re-settle in the country (ie what jobs I could do as a Brit, albeit one who speaks reasonable German). The main problem is that German employers are really not used to people changing careers - whereas in England people look at you for your overall talent and experience (in addition to specific qualifications), in Germany they tend to look only at your formal training in that particular area of work, and are very suspicious of people changing careers. A (British) friend of mine set up a company in Germany, which ultimately did very well - but he had enormous, unbelievable trouble getting the banks interested in financing it, because it wasn't precisely what he had been doing previously - they simply didn't believe that with his (proven) talent he could run a whole range of businesses. In the end, he got so frustrated with the lack of enterprise that he sold the firm for a tidy profit (to a larger Germany company which did similar things), and has now moved to SE Asia!
Getting back to the motoring topic - the traffic flow system is called the "Gruene Welle" (green wave), and is used in most large towns and cities. Unlike the UK, the German town planners attitude is to get the traffic to the destination as quickly as possible, whereas UK traffic planners seem to want to make life so miserable for drivers that they give up altogether. The green right arrow at traffic lights was just about the only DDR traffic regulation that the West took on at reunification - as a sop to the Ossies, but actually very sensible. Really, the only motoring woe that irritates me is the way that you can be driving along quite happily on a motorway at 130 mph, and suddenly, as the merest hint of a bend approaches, or a slight ripple in the tarmac, they slap in a 50 mph limit - sometimes (though IMHO less often these days) with a speed camera pretty sharpish thereafter. Oh yes, the numbers of lorries on the main East/West motorways (esp A2) can be also be horrendous. But otherwise it really is a country far ahead of the UK in so many, many areas, motoring and otherwise, and so little appreciated in the UK. Sure, it does have its faults (the comments about the rudeness of pensioners made me chuckle wryly), but we could learn a lot from the Germans.
\"Archie\"
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I always wonder wryly given our propensity to outsource everything is why we could not contract out alot of our public services to the French, Germans or the Swiss.....I suppose they'd struggle to deliver any better if they realised how semi-literate and ill trained most UK employees are (and also because of the shake ups driven by "performance targets" are in a "Look after No1 mode and sod the company/public service ethos") and also that the budget they have to do a job is both too small and only available for 18mths before another bidding round begins...
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The A4 through Slough trading estate used to be set like that. If you traveled at the speed limit you would get green lights all the way, indeed a sighn at the foirst lights proudly proclaimed so.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I spend about half my working time in Germany - working for German companies. I've been a regular visitor for about the last 15 years and speak the language pretty well now. I spent a whole year there in the '90's When I'm back in the UK I often watch ARD and ZDF news on the satellite for an 'alternative' view of things.
I agree with most of the comments above about what a great place Germany is - although I can't agree with the snobbishness bit - there is some snobbishness about academic qualifications, but I've never encountered the snotty middle-class arrogance so common in the UK. I find Germans (to work with) generally more honest and (there's no easy way to say this!) more intelligent that British people - or perhaps I should say better educated. German managers are particularly good, and better at getting the best out of their workforce than UK managers. Role for role they tend to be older than their UK counterparts. In the UK we have too many boys trying to do a man's job - we don't value experience. I also tend to think that the British know 'the cost of everything and the value of nothing' - the 'dead hand' of the accountant and the audit culture has ruined much of industry and public service.
The reason that the transport infrastructure in Germany is so much better than in the UK is very simple - sustained long-term investment. Whilst the UK squandered the benefit of the growth of the '80's on cutting direct taxes, rising property prices and making a small number of people wealthy through privatisations and massively expanding 'financial services' (i.e. high-commission pension plans and endowments etc), much of continental Europe invested money back into their infrastructure. The result of this is that we have the highest property prices in Europe and the highest proportion of millionaires of the major European economies, but a threadbare public infrastructure. 'Private affluence, public squalor' sums it up quite neatly.
It does make me laugh when I tell people I've been in Germany and they comment on how badly the German economy is doing - invariably they've never visited the country. I have been offered jobs over there, but unfortunately my wife won't leave the UK due to family reasons. I'm making sure that my children are learning German though and the hope is that when they leave school/college they will have the opportunity to move over there if they wish. Its certainly not Utopia, and there are some rough areas and some social problems to deal with, but in general its a far better place to live than the UK, particularly for anyone on an average income - you can have a life.
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And contrary to the widespread British stereotype about the Germans being arrogant, humourless sun bed hijackers, in their own country they are the most hospitable, friendly and social people I have encountered. They couldn't do enough for me when I lived there.
And the beer is just fantastic!!!!!
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in their own country they are the most hospitable, friendly and social people I have encountered. They couldn't do enough for me when I lived there.
I couldn't agree more.
Cheers
DP
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>>we don't value experience
In many ways, this is a good thing. In many cases when I hear about someone saying they have n years of experience, what they really mean is one year's worth of experience repeated n times - why respect that?
Number_Cruncher
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Experience is probably more important than qualifications in a lot of situations in life including business.
And it can't be learned from books.
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>>And it can't be learned from books.
What have you got against books? Virtually all of human knowledge is written in a book somewhere.
In my experience, learning by experience means learning from making mistakes - which everybody does. When things are going just right, you aren't learning much. If I can avoid a mistake by doing something that I have read about, I have no problem with that. If the end result is the same, does it matter if you get there painfully, or via the guidance and wisdom which can be found in the literature.
Alas, too much of my experience has been gained the painful way!
Number_Cruncher
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I don' t think I am allowed to respond !
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>>I don' t think I am allowed to respond !
Why ever not?
I don't see why we can't discuss a point reasonably. We don't need to agree, all we need to do is to respect that the other person has a reason for holding their view. You never know robcars, via the course of the debate one or other of us might change our minds, and agree that the other guy had a valid point - actually, I suspect it is much larger and much stronger to admit to being wrong than to cling to an argument that is a lost cause.
Among the last things I would be happy being accused of is being bigotted and deaf to reasonable argument. As this is an open forum, even HJ can't put a bad point and get away with it - each point of view is held under close and intelligent scrutiny, it's one of the things that makes this forum worthwhile - no one can just put their views and think they will just be accepted!
Please respond, lets have that debate!
Number_Cruncher
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Sorry, not allowed to.
We will disagree, 1 of us will be sarcastic or offended (i note your sarcasm in your reply but DD will not! and found it humourous) and I will be shown through the door I was shown (and commented about but which has been removed)
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>>i note your sarcasm in your reply
Sorry, but there wasn't any sarcasm meant - I wasn't trying to be clever or to joke or take the mickey, I was just being serious. I find it really difficult to put or get the full meaning of a post - you lose so much information when you aren't face to face, there's no facial expression, no tone of voice, no hand gestures - it's no wonder that we all sometimes get the wrong end of the stick.
I enjoy and thrive on a good open discussion, and I've learnt lots from reading the wise posts which you can find on this site.
Anyway, this will be my last post tonight, my eyelids are drooping, and my thoughts are straying lustfully towards Antipodean threesomes!
Number_Cruncher
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one of us might change their minds?
night!
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Sorry, not allowed to. We will disagree, 1 of us will be sarcastic or offended (i note your sarcasm in your reply but DD will not! and found it humourous) and I will be shown through the door I was shown (and commented about but which has been removed)
For pitys sake Rob, how many times have I got to explain it to you?
Discuss and disagree by all means, BUT do so in a polite and civilised manner, and without the opinion that what you say is correct and everyone else is talking rubbish. That is all I ask of you.
I note no sarcasm from anyone but you. If I find that you cannot respond without talking in riddles, having continual digs at how this site is moderated, the raw deal that I have supposedly inflicted upon you, then you leave me no choice but to eject you. I really cannot be doing with the bickering from you all the time.
I have previously said "this is your final warning", but didn't follow it up. Don't push my buttons any further, otherwise I will be pushing the one that removes you.
If when I next look in here and find that you have responded to this post with any views on the above, then you're out.
End of.
DD.
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Sorry DD, responded to Rob before I read your post.
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"Sorry, not allowed to."
For pity's sake Rob, stop being pathetic. Your whining is really getting annoying now.
You offer valuable opinons, but suffer from being pompous and agressive if people disagree with you, and then sulk when you are slapped down (correctly I believe) for it. Get over it or do as you keep threatening and go away!
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"Virtually all of human knowledge is written in a book somewhere."
Sorry, can't agree with you NC. I've never read a book in my life yet I frequently have a threesome with two Australian chicks. How? That is the kind of wisdom which cannot be found in the literature.
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How?
I don't want to know BBD, that's too much detail!, but I'm sure it was fun!
Number_Cruncher
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Dave
I think you are getting your imagination, dreams and aspriations mixed up with facts.
Hmm Maybe on second thoughts, you are still in denial. You really need to come out mate.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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That is the kind of wisdom which cannot be found in the literature.
Oh I don't know. There are various publications that document this kind of thing in vivid detail. ;-)
So I'm told...
Cheers
DP
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Amusing story off the Britboard:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5275866.stm
Not particularly motoring related, sorry Mods.
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