What about the blasted Buses and Lorries that fill the air with rubbish
I always find that a strange tilt on this argument. A bus can carry 70-75 people and still put out relatively the same amount of pollutants. If those 75 people we all to use a car for the same journey, the emissions output I imagine would be significantly greater, even if they were using 1.0 pint-pot cars. Similarly, if the payload of a lorry was put into a fleet of Berlingo vans, they too would probably produce more pollution than the lorry. Not forgetting the extra amount of road space for both of these examples. I may be wrong, but that?s how I view it.
There is another answer to get people out of cars ,give affordable public transport that is pleasant to use
Well I use it, only because it IS cheaper and in some cases more convenient than a car for commuting. I agree that this would be a tremendous help for congestion, but some of those who live many miles from their workplace can't use it. Cheap and pleasant public transport wont fix everything. You need to get the 'looser cruiser' image out of people?s heads. Similarly, those with the 'I have a car, I?m gonna use it hell or high water' and the 'I don't want to sit next to other people incase i catch a cold or leprosy? mentality wont be interested neither, and there is probably more of them than you'd think. If you can do something with these people and the price/quality of public transport in some places, then we might be on to something. Whoever thought of privatising PT has a lot to answer for, in fact that very same person once said ?Any man who rides a bus to work after the age of 30 can count himself a failure in life??..
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those with the 'I have a car, I?m gonna use it hell or high water'
TBH why shoudnt they,it costs enough to keep a car. PT needs a lot to be desired anyway during rush hour.
drivers of these vehicles are on bonus so are wreckless,those passengers that cannot move very fast are thrown around to find very uncomfortable seats and given little time to find them as vehicle moves off so fast,Would need a lot to convert me to PT cheaper to drive where I need to go with less agro
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Steve
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>>Cheap and pleasant public transport wont fix everything>>
We have an excellent bus service in my town - every 10 minutes during the day where I live - and I have a pass entitling me to free travel over a very wide area.
Even so I still use my car most of the time for the simple fact that the buses don't always go where I want or I have to catch at least two in both directions.
I can be there and back in the time involved by bus and, in the case of the weekly Tesco shopping trip (four bus rides), would mean humping several very heavy Tesco bags home.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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According to government's own data, buses carry 8 passengers per average mile. This is because they carry so much redundancy. When you drive to work unlike a bus you park your car, your car doesn't keep driving to and from home with no-one in it.
The overall pollution from a bus compared to petrol car was around 250x about 6 years ago, mostly, this was particulates.
"I always find that a strange tilt on this argument. A bus can carry 70-75 people and still put out relatively the same amount of pollutants. If those 75 people we all to use a car for the same journey, the emissions output I imagine would be significantly greater, even if they were using 1.0 pint-pot cars. Similarly, if the payload of a lorry was put into a fleet of Berlingo vans, they too would probably produce more pollution than the lorry. Not forgetting the extra amount of road space for both of these examples. I may be wrong, but that?s how I view it. "
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>According to government's own data, buses carry 8 passengers per average mile. This is because they carry so much redundancy. When you drive to work unlike a bus you park your car, your car doesn't keep driving to and from home with no-one in it.
Hmm. So you want to have the 8 passengers per average mile and have the "it's running empty a lot of the time." That won't wash my friend. Either buses run at 8ppm, or they don't. Which is it?
(a modern single decker does about 10 mpg and isn't affected much by load. Do the math.)
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Hmm. So you want to have the 8 passengers per average mile and have the "it's running empty a lot of the time." That won't wash my friend. Either buses run at 8ppm, or they don't. Which is it?
In what way are the two mutually exclusive?
If it's running empty a lot of the time, but then on a couple of runs per day it's full, that could easily average out at 8 passengers per trip.
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If you are going to properly compare modes of transport you need to compare pollution per passenger mile using actual passenger data not work it out on numbers of seats as they won't always be full. I do notice they always quote pollution for PT at full capacity and cars are always said to be one person or just over one person in the claim that 'that is always how they are' conveniently forgetting buses are often half empty. I don't think the greenies would like the result as it would often show cars were less polluting per mile than buses and trains so people should use their car to be green. For little used services then taking the car will always be greener. The irony is the government are always pointing us to off peak public transport journeys which is when they are the most pollution causing.... Cars don't drive around empty either. Someone should do a real world pollution study of mileage of a bus in a week and the same mileage in someone's car and work out per person carried per minute what the relative pollution levels are. I bet it would be very interesting.
The issue of catching infections on PT is a serious problem. Those that use it have more infections and suffer more stress than those that commute by car. I wonder how many works days are lost due to colds etc caught on a bus or train?
teabelly
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Well I use it, only because it IS cheaper and in some cases more convenient than a car for commuting.
I agree. I use it for this reason too. And at some way over 30 I doubt many people would consider me a failure (well, my mother loves me anyway). With public transport I can guarantee I can be at my place of work in 45 minutes. Now it's true that I do this journey only a couple of days a week, but I've been delayed once in six years, by about ten minutes. By car it takes between 35 and 90 minutes. It can't be predicted. And since the reason I make this journey is often so that I can talk to a room with upwards of 50 people waiting for me, it's important I'm on time.
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I live 34 miles from my workplace in London. I do av. of 340 miles a week, 1450 miles a month purely for commuting. And my journeys to work and back cost me on average £135 a month in fuel. The cheapest possible public transport from Medway to London is season ticket which works out over £230 a month plus whatever zone 1&2 underground travel card works out nowadays. Case for public transport closed.
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[Nissan dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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All I can say is thanks to Gordon Brown my yearly tax disc has gone DOWN £5.
£100 a year suits me fine, Thanks Gordon.
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I live 34 miles from my workplace in London. I do av. of 340 miles a week, 1450 miles a month purely for commuting. And my journeys to work and back cost me on average £135 a month in fuel. The cheapest possible public transport from Medway to London is season ticket which works out over £230 a month plus whatever zone 1&2 underground travel card works out nowadays. Case for public transport closed.
Presume you have free parking.
I live 70 miles from my office. Annual rail season Northampton to Euston is £3400, ninety minutes door to door. Read, sleep or plan day on train. Car to station, bike or foot at the London end. Car commute would be anything from ninety minutes to three hours. Parking, eg NCP, nearly as much as the rail season. Arrive knackered, fall asleep and die on way home.
Case for PT wide open.
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>. A bus can carry 70-75 people<<
I know it's been commented on already but I've never been on a bus with even half those numbers on.
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Clearly Adam you never travel at peak time. If you did, you would have done.
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I used to get 4 buses a day when I was at school all at peak times!!!
I must have lived in a small town!
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I believe the issue can be broken down into three separate areas:
1. Commuting in rural areas or between towns away from large cities;
2. Commuting into (from suburbs) and around large cities;
3. Travelling long distances across the country.
For the past two years I travelled from Hertfordshire into central London to work - no point in using my car as it would take too long, would cost more than the Annual Travelcard and parking is almost a joke now. What I did find strange was how much more expensive it was just one or two stops further out. I noticed that many commuters travelled in from these towns to my station as it was cheaper than buying the ticket at their station. Not really much encouragement for people to use their local station.
I now travel across the county to work (about 35 miles on mostly motorways) - this takes about 45-50mins on a good day, occasionally up to 80mins if a serious accident occures (about once a fortnight). Petrol cost about £170 per month. The quickest journey by PT would take a minimum 90mins (assuming all 5 interchanges went smoothly!) and cost over £300 a month. It would also invlove travelling into then out of London to get there!
Again, for long-distance travel, it depends the complexity of the PT route, and the reason for travelling.
This all shows unless there is blaket PT coverage (not possible due to cost) in non-city areas, private transport is a MUST. That does not mean people should be responsible when making journeys (no 200yd trips to the newsagent 'cos its raining'!)
Where PT is viable (in cities), it should be made more user-friendly and have a common-sense outlook (better routing and siting of bus stops). Most seating on commuter trains and buses are too small (OK for women size 8 & under and small kids only) and too close together (no leg room for anyone taller than 5ft 8ins). They become like Doctor's surgeries on a Monday morning - a great place to pick up whatever's 'going around' at your local school. I once sat in front of a man who had been smoking extremely strong cigarettes and was gagging for the entire bus journey (30mins)! I have also noticed that I haven't had a single cold/virus since I started to use my car for commuting again.
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& the £95 saving covers all the costs of servicing, tyres, oil, depreciation..........?
Chris M
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Servicing and depreciation cost would still be present if the car stood on my driveway all day long.
Let me put it in perspective:
- on one hand air conditioned car, coffee in travel jug, Nick Ferrari on the radio.
- on the other hand almost twice more expensive seat on South Eastern orient express to Waterloo, fight my way to Underground in rush hour, cheap perfumes and sweaty armpits, rat maze of corridors, freezing train platforms, spit on floors and chewing gum stuck to posters and handles..
.. ouch I'm tired even thinking of it.
I didn't move out of London to re-live horrors of Livinstonian Utopia every morning and pay over the odds for it.
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[Nissan dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Servicing and depreciation cost would still be present if the car stood on my driveway all day long. Let me put it in perspective: - on one hand air conditioned car, coffee in travel jug, Nick Ferrari on the radio. - on the other hand almost twice more expensive seat on South Eastern orient express to Waterloo, fight my way to Underground in rush hour, cheap perfumes and sweaty armpits, rat maze of corridors, freezing train platforms, spit on floors and chewing gum stuck to posters and handles.. .. ouch I'm tired even thinking of it. I didn't move out of London to re-live horrors of Livinstonian Utopia every morning and pay over the odds for it.
I totally agree (almost!) - I prefer Simon Bates on Classic fm - nice and relaxing to take my mind off the idiot white van men, repmobiles and yorkie brigade who all believe they are God's gift to driving. Also Radio 5 Live in the evening drive home (can't stand that Campbell fellow in the morning!).
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15,000 extra miles per year must increase depreciation, an extra service and half a set of tyres. I'm not critising your choice of how to get to work, just your mathematics for justifying it.
I commuted into London by train for twenty years and would never have considered driving. Fortunately, I moved south and now drive 18 miles in 25 minutes. Much nicer!
Chris M
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It's very easy to justify, even if I drove absolute fuel guzzling dissaster and couldn't save a penny on my journey (and that's not possible with trains and PT before 10am in South East being the most expensive method of traveling in Europe). I do my shoppings en route, collect packets from Post office depo if I need to, drop off friends, pick up my girlfriend if she finishes early. After 8 years on trains and PT I swear, I have never, ever felt as happy and as good about commuting as I do now, driving in my car to work.
Commuting from South east, anywhere between Canterbury and Darford to places like Canary Wharf, Bank or even Old Street is always faster, easier and cheaper by car, even with bottleneck of Blackwall tunnel on the way. And if you could actually work from 10:30 to 6:30 I promise you you'd be driving through almost completely empty streets, give or take few stops to give way to bendy busses stuck on tight corners and roundabouts.
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[Nissan dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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