"So I took out a BMW technician from a dealer on the following Tuesday (had the car 9 days at this point). He confirmed the rumbling noise sounds bad and should get it fixed"
What did he reckon it was then?
It may be a good idea to get a proper diagnosis of the problem first.
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So we have
A loose bulb, a leaking headlamp washer, and an undiagnosed noise, and we dont know if the tyres are legal or not but they looked ok 9 days ago. And for this we are going to court?
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>>. And for this we are going to court?
Well you might be, i have better things to do that day. ;o)
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>'for which I paid a 4 figure sum'
So you think that a thousand or two is a lot, then? (I'm just guessing what you might have paid, but you are suggesting that you are in 'banger' territory. Which is the sort of car I drive.) Not for a BMW it's not. I think you might struggle in court over a loose bulb, borderline tyres & a leak in the headlights. Any sensible court would say well frankly it's an old car; if you want a perfect example, then buy a new one!
Had you paid a five figure sum then it would be a different matter.
The as-yet undiagnosed noise is the only real ground where you might have a leg upon which to stand. It really isn't the trader's fault if you're now regretting the purchase because it isn't a brand new car and has an inconsequential leak or two, and are regretting not having bought the cheaper Polo instead.
Look at it the other way round. Once you've paid your few pounds to sort out the bulb & washer then you will have a superb condition car. Be cheery about your new motor & you'll enjoy it more. It's all psychological, after all.
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Well, '4 figures' goes up to £9999, which is quite a lot of money.
Anyway, I don't know how much you paid but I wouldn't worry too much about the headlight or washer. They are unlikely to cost much at all to fix. The rumbling noise under acceleration could be a number of things (gearbox/prop bearings, driveshaft joints etc.) - all of these are likely to cost a few bob to fix, so concentrate of getting that noise diagnosed.
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>'for which I paid a 4 figure sum' So you think that a thousand or two is a lot, then? (I'm just guessing what you might have paid, but you are suggesting that you are in 'banger' territory. Which is the sort of car I drive.) Not for a BMW it's not. I think you might struggle in court over a loose bulb, borderline tyres & a leak in the headlights. Any sensible court would say well frankly it's an old car; if you want a perfect example, then buy a new one!
Did you not notice which car he has bought? A BMW 330d. If you can show me where I can get one of these for a couple of grand, I would be very grateful to you.
In reality it's far more likely that he's paid close to 5 figures for it - I'd guess at between £8k and £10k.
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sorry lads to correct myself I meant 5 figure sum - I paid £10,950 for the car.
So I expect more than what I'm getting at the moment in terms of car in decent state.
Cheers Rich
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That's quite an amount of money then.
First off you really do need to get that noise checked out. That should be your immediate concern. If you are an AA or RAC member then ask them to investigate - it would cost £200 maximum.
If I had a pound of every person who's been seduced by the BMW badge and then had problems with a used one, I'd be a rich man. Ideally you should have had a car of this value inspected prior to purchase. BMW's suffer as many maladies as any other car.
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Juyst in case it helps; The deep rumbling/grinding noise from under my BMW 330d turned out to be a broken engine mount.
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do you know how much it cost to replace the broken engine mount then? And is it an easy job? And had this caused any further damage or is it just a case of a new mount and problems over?
Must admit this makes a lot of sense to me as the problem only occurs when the engine is under load - it's pushing hard against the transmission so that could be enough to 'move' it slightly within its mountings - the grinding noise could then be the driveshaft coupling not being quite fully lined up...
Rich
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If I had a pound of every person who's been seduced by the BMW badge and then had problems with a used one
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i know at least two score of people who own bmw cars. their ownership extends from one year to 12 years, mileages covered by the owners from 20k to 150k, yet none of them has had anything done apart from routine servicing. and even that does not cost much at all, especially if you diy.
my own is an e39 with over 120k miles. absolute perfection. best car i have ever owned (including jap nissans, toyotas, and nissans. ) currently looking for another one - having looked at many makes, even my wife is convinced that bmw is the one to have. absollutely nothing to do with the badge, everything to do with ride and quality of manufacture.
i could go on and on, but won't.
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:: edit ::
(including jap nissans, toyotas, and hondas. )
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They aren't perfect though, we have owned an E36 from new, which we are very happy with, but we can't pretend that it has only ever needed routine servicing.
Suspension bushes, coil springs, oil seals etc.
We've done all of the above, most happened when the car was about 4 years old and had about 35K miles on the clock, it's 8 years old now and has less than 50K on the clock, had to change a snapped spring last week.
So, on the whole we're very happy with it (we wouldn't have kept it 8 years otherwise) but they're bound to need some stuff doing occasionally.
I've only skim read so far (always a bad idea) but it doesn't sound like there is actually that much wrong with this car that I would want to reject it.
Blue
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>> If I had a pound of every person who's been seduced by the >> BMW badge and then had problems with a used one >> i know at least two score of people who own bmw cars. their ownership extends from one year to 12 years, mileages covered by the owners from 20k to 150k, yet none of them has had anything done apart from routine servicing. and even that does not cost much at all, especially if you diy. my own is an e39 with over 120k miles. absolute perfection. best car i have ever owned (including jap nissans, toyotas, and nissans. ) currently looking for another one - having looked at many makes, even my wife is convinced that bmw is the one to have. absollutely nothing to do with the badge, everything to do with ride and quality of manufacture. i could go on and on, but won't.
Oh, for goodness sake! I have worked on BMW's since the 2002 of the 1970's and have a lot to do with the company today. I must have done repairs on at least 150 BM's in my time and have owned several myself. They are good well made cars, but they go wrong and break from time to time. In general the engineering is good; but their electronics are not as good as the Japanese and some of the castings can be a bit suspect (porous alloy castings is a BMW Achilles' heel that also aflicts their motorcycles). There are a lot of duff ones out there that have been thrashed to within an inch of their lives; a lot of clocked ones too. If you want I can list the common failure points on most of the models made over the last ten years.
I have seen a fair number of people desperate to get into a BMW and jump at a 'good value' used one that has turned out to be a dog.
A trader friend of mine has a very smart 1999 320i auto with leather for sale at the moment - it looks absolutely super, under 100k miles and is up at a good price. But I know its a dog - the engine has been rebuilt twice due to cooling problems.
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I have worked on BMW's since the 2002 of the 1970's and have a lot to do with the company today.
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reminds me of my friend who is a heart specialist ( for over 20 years ).
he has seen nothing but heart patients in all that time.
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Like a customer asked one of my computer engineers.
"Are there machines reliable"
"Every time I see one its broke mate"
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asked one of my computer engineers.
A chartered engineer? Thought not. Fitter then.
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everyone is fitter than a chartered engineer.
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>> asked one of my computer engineers. A chartered engineer? Thought not. Fitter then.
Actually a 'fitter' in the traditional sense of the word was quite a skilled individual. He would literally make parts 'fit' - so there was quite some skill and knowledge involved.
Someone who swaps out computer parts until the machine works is probably best described by the catch-all term 'technician'.
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>>>Actually a 'fitter' in the traditional sense of the word was quite a skilled individual. He would literally make parts 'fit'
Which I well appreciate - but you've obviously never tried to make the case fit back on a computer! That's a job for a skilled person.
I poured a bottle of inhibitor into my central heating system last week, and was disappointed to see that the sticky label for the boiler asked you to get your heating engineer to check the concentration when he serviced it.
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>> I have worked on BMW's since the 2002 of the 1970's and have >> a lot to do with the company today. >> reminds me of my friend who is a heart specialist ( for over 20 years ). he has seen nothing but heart patients in all that time.
I do some pre-purchase inspections so I get to see a lot of good ones as well. As I said, they are good cars but they do go wrong from time to time. On the whole they are a lot less reliable than Japanese cars. Some people just go totally OTT on BMW's though - they get suckered into it throught the slick marketing - get desperate to buy one, rush into a deal and end up with a dud. Check out ECP and GSF - they hold big stocks of a wide range of BMW parts, and not just for the old models either. Either those companies are really stupid and like to tie up money in stock that sits on the shelves - or they are selling the stuff and making a good profit.
To return to the original poster's problem - the engine mount is a good thing to check. If it has broken then it needs sorting ASAP because it throws out the drivetrain alignment. Another common problem on BM's is failure of the prop centre bearing mount (failure of the rubber in the bearing locating bracket). On hard-driven cars these will fail again and again. Fairly cheap to fix.
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I'd never buy a used BMW - not because I think they're unreliable but because by their nature they get driven fast. They can of course take good fast driving - that's what they're designed for - but too many of them are abused by the aggressive 'look at me, I've got a BMW' types.
If I go anywhere by train I often see stone-cold BMWs being raced out of the station car park by Butch who is frustrated because he hasn't driven all day. Think what that must be doing to the engines.
Fairly few Toyotas or Nissans, apart from the sports models, are driven like that.
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To be honest I think modern engines can take a certain amount of that.
I have driven a number of used manual trans BMWs where the synchros are prematurely worn -esp. 2nd and 3rd gear. I think that's because some get driven hard and people try to rush changes, especially when the oil is cold, or they 'power shift'. It damages the synchro rings.
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Ok to give you an update:
Taken the car in to today to a second nationwide place. They have driven it and phoned me up to say: 'definitely something's wrong with the car - needs fixing'
But they say they don't know what and aren't prepared to spend any more time looking into it (what kind of a warranty is this?!).
I've been back to BMW and they offered to produce a report to say what's wrong with the car - this will cost around £120ish.
So what should I do now? I'm currently indifferent about returning the car for a refund or getting it fixed - it was a good car for the price but with these problems I'm starting to feel like just returning it and buying a new car - less hassle.
Figure my options are to pay £120 to BMW for a report, which would help me if things got as far as court, or going back to the trader now - he'll no doubt then try to get the car fixed by a garage himself.
Thoughts? Rich
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You need to pay out the 120 quid for the inspection. BMW or AA, you need to know whats wrong with it. Then armed with *FACTS* not speculation or guesswork you have something to beat the dealer with or use in court later.
Frankly it sounds to me like your car has been soured in your mind, you are never now going to be happy with it, so invest the money, take the car back and beat the dealer over the head with the technical report and demand your money back or else ( you could even try for the refund of your technical report)
Do it quickly tho, the longer you wait the less room you have.
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Just take it back mate, paying that amount of money you don't have to put up with any hassle.
Not much point speculating too much about the noise. Engine mount is of course possible, but then it could be one of a hundred other drivetrain-related problems - none of which are likely to be cheap. One downside of RWD on everyday cars that don't really need it - there are more parts to break.
The tyres are NOT subjective. There is a legal limit, 1.6mm of tread across 3/4 of the patten. Go and measure it - it either complies or it doesn't. I know various places recommend changing at 2mm or 3mm or whatever, but then they would because they sell tyres. 1.6mm is the only number than means anything - it's what matters for an MOT test.
A possible explanation is that they look a little low and the BMW dealership are telling you that they are illegal because they hope to sell you some overpriced tyres.
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I'm a bit puzzled by this. Why £120 for a report? An hour of anybody's labour should be enough to discover what the noise is. BMW's are pretty straightforward in their engineering and any half-competent motor technician should be able to spot a broken engine mount, grumbling gearbox bearing etc etc well within an hour.
How about taking it to a local independent garage (the sort of place that does MoT's and general mechanical repairs) - they should be able to tell you what the problem is.
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£120 was the inc. vat price for 1 hour of BMW technician time...
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Ouch! I take it you live in the South-East then!
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yep - High Wycombe.... I thought it was a bit steep too!
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Update for you all. Dropped car off at trader's place on Sunday afternoon. He gave me a cr4ppy Fiat Brava as a loaner which was a bit annoying but never mind.
Phoned for an update yesterday, he said car was being worked on at a BMW specialist. Got another update from him today. Had a long chat - he seems a nice guy. Apparently they've changed the propshaft for a new one. This didn't fix the problem.
So now they think they're going to change the flywheel which is a big job. So far the bill (with flywheel changed) is apparently coming to £850 - which the trader has agreed to pay in full.
Hopefully this fixes it!
Useful side note: The garage told the trader that they'd recommend changing the clutch whilst they have the gearbox and flywheel out anyway. Because this would mean only an additional cost of £150 (for clutch parts) rather than the usual cost of changing a clutch which is £600 inc. labour.
So the trader has offered this to me - if I cough up £150 he'll get the clutch changed. Given that the car has done 110k miles on the original clutch, should I take him up on this? I only consider keeping the car for about year and the old clutch felt perfectly fine. What would you guys recommend?
Thx Richard
PS: All the work is being done at Hampshire BMW in Basingstoke - they're a BMW specialist - anyone have any experience of them?
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why not give hampshire bmw a ring - or drop in and speak to them. See what they say about the clutch, at £150 inc parts it isnt as if they are going to be making a huge sum on it, sounds like just a sensible precaution. Sounds like the dealer is being pretty good about it all, and you are getting a couple of things done now at no cost to you, that could go wrong in the course of time.
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For £150 quid i would get the clutch done - if you leave it and it went in three months time you'd be kicking yourself for not having it done.
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Just to give you a quick update: Trader replaced flywheel and propshaft and clutch. He got car back from garage, found it to still have the same rumbling problem - as before, under load you'd get a rumbling / grinding from under the car...
So he offered me a full refund which I accepted - this included everything I paid for the car including the warranty. So I'm very happy and think the trader really has come good in this situation...
I'll be writing to him to confirm that I'm very happy with the outcome and thanks for being so decent about things (and cc:ing in trading standars)
Cheers for all your advice
Rich
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