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I used to be supportive of the POLICE, but now find they are not really there for our benefit any more. I spent the whole of today in the company of the Police, many are thoroughly ashamed of the way they are being used these days, and others simply resort to picking on the most trivial crimes such as those above, which they are still able to deal with.
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Rishab C might I boldly suggest that by spending your day with the Police you didn't do too much learning?
By targetting offenders for, as you so eloquently put it 'trivial crimes', it helps the Police deter and disrupt crime.
Think about it. If you know that a particular thief uses a particular motor vehicle to get about, then if you stop him/her whilst driving and then ask him/her to produce his/her documents and they fail to produce them at the time and in seven days time, then that criminal will be sent to Court for, yes a minor infringement, of fialing to produce his/her documents. But over time, if s/he persists in failing to produce his documetns, the Courts will lock him/her up.
By disrupting and deterring criminal activity and the means with which Criminals move about - you are surely preventing crime? OPffence might indeed be trivial, but if you keep putting that criminal through the Criminal Justice System over and over again, it will pay dividends over the longer term. no offence is trivial, no offence should be ignored by the Police. But this is the real world and common sense needs to prevail.
It's a shame that you feel the Officers are only concentrating their efforts on trivial matters - but to someone having no tax might seem trivial, to me shows that this person might not have any insurance or even a DL and needs to be taken off the road before they kill a child? It aint trivial then is it?
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Leaving aside police at all times, surely it is common sense to carry your licence with you at all times along with photocopies of your reg docs?
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Leaving aside police at all times, surely it is common sense to carry your licence with you at all times along with photocopies of your reg docs?
If you get mugged and your driving licence is stolen it costs £19 for a duplicate photocard licence. If you still have a paper licence the replacement will have to be photocard licence and for this you could have to pay a "responsible" person to verify your photograph. When I moved house, which necessitated me getting a photocard licence, my doctor charged a fee of £20 to verify my photograph. I'm not sure about carrying a photocopy of my car registration document ~ if that is stolen then it probably makes it a whole lot easier for someone to clone your car.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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of my car registration document ~ if that is stolen then it probably makes it a whole lot easier for someone to clone your car.
Correction ~ of YOUR car registration document.....
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Maybe they should make it law that licenses and insurance docs etc should be carried at all times when operating a vehicle. Makes it much easier to weed out those who do not have the proper documents without wasting police time by doing the job twice. Once to stop and ask for documents and again when the documents have to be produced at a station or whatever. Certainly would clear up confusion about what is compulsory/recommended/suggested etc.
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I South America if you do not have all of your documents and all of the car doucments available to show instantly, then the car is impounded. (the fines are awful).
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The police are allowed to stop a vehicle and request the driver shows them the relevant documentation. It is an offence not to, but one of those laws that in this day and age wouldn't work-thieving of document from the glovebox would be a nightmare, company vehicles where the MOT cert is stored centrally etc. So the Police provide a HORT1 which give you 7 days from midnight of the stop the produce the indicated documents at a Police station. The officer will explain (hopefully) that failure to produce said documents at the police station will mean you are reported for the offence. I think thats right!
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>>but one of those laws that in this day and age wouldn't work
It does in the United States, Brasil, Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Peru, Columbia, Ecuador and many others.
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Why have documentation in a glove box?.
*sit tight for yet another weary USA commentary*
When I lived in the US, insurance companies would send out small wallet sized cards with all your insurance/vehicle info on it along with the regular papers and contract etc. When you renewed your registration (equivalent of tax disk) you also got a small wallet sized card with all the vehicle info on it. These two things were issued in smaller wallet sizes so they would fit handily in...you guessed it.
Granted some people don't carry wallets, but unless they like to dress like Robin Hood, they most likely have clothing with pockets which will also handily fit the small cards.
You are required to have a ticket on your person to board a train, a passport on your person to board an international flight, so why not a license and docs on your person to drive a car?.
For fleet vehicles I drove the documents were always in the vehicle and I don't see how having those documents in the vehicle made it any easier for thieves.
A HORT1 producer which requires you to produce your documents at a later date won't get an unlicensed, uninsured driver off the road. If they weren't bothered about being legal to drive, why would they be bothered about showing up at a police station to produce documents they don't have?.
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A HORT1 producer which requires you to produce your documents at a later date won't get an unlicensed, uninsured driver off the road. If they weren't bothered about being legal to drive, why would they be bothered about showing up at a police station to produce documents they don't have?.
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The British system is designed on the basis that an English Gentleman's word is his bond. If I say something to you then it is true. But in any system where 'goodwill' is given/received, can be open to abuse. Trancer hit the nail on the head with his comment about the HO/RT1.
But also note that that there is NOTHING directly in the Road Traffic Act (or others) that gives a Police Officer the power to PREVENT an uninsured driver from driving? Scary isn't it? All that can be done is for the driver to be summonsed for the offence and be dealt with 'at court at a later date'.
Rediculous IMHO.
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...umm. All I know in the numerous countries where I've lived, carrying your licence and evidence of ownership have been mandatory. A day in a Saudi traffic jail is not something you need on your sightseeing calendar of the Kingdom for example. Mind you I've been told the chicken curry in the Bahrain Police Fort isn't half bad.
Here if you can't produce the reg docs your vehicle gets impounded and when after a great deal of effort you recover it it will be minus battery, spare wheel, radio and anything else you had in it. Our police are such fine upstanding chaps, running regular vehicle checkpoints to flush out terrorists, guerrillas and wealthy looking foreigners.....
(of course I do "know" someone here who "gave" me about 6 drivers licences for a small consideration.... ;+) ) All legal ones as well. End of worries there.
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lhpj,
Think about it. If you know that a particular thief uses a particular motor vehicle to get about, then if you stop him/her whilst driving and then ask him/her to produce his/her documents and they fail to produce them at the time and in seven days time
These are exactly the activities the Police are prohibited from doing these days!!! You have obviously missed my point.
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These are exactly the activities the Police are prohibited from doing these days!!! You have obviously missed my point.
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Oh right, sorry...obviously Crime Prevention is something the Police shouldn't be active in and of course, we must apologise to the Law Abiding Criminal for infringing his Human Rights by stopping and asking him/her to produce his Driving Documents because s/he might not have any - so we should let them off and allow them to drive with impunity to travel (by using the car) to commit crimes?
We should, as a Police Service, persecute the good and law abiding citizens of this country who pay their dues and abide by the very letter of the law...
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Badger
Technically speaking one should carry Driving Licence etc.
Why:
Section 164 Road Traffic Act 1988 states under various circumstances (including person driving a m veh on a road)a driver MUST, on being so required by a Constable produce their Driving Licence and counterpart. A person who fails to do so commits an offence. BUT in any proceedings for fail to produce it shall be a defence to show that the Licence/Counterpart was produced personally at a Police Station nominated by the driver at the time of the requirement within 7 days or as soon as was reasonably practicable or the day before proceedings were commenced.
So on one hand the law requires you to prouce at the time but accepts this can be done later.
DVD
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DVD: "Technically speaking one should carry Driving Licence etc."
Thanks for yet more clarification/confirmation.
Leaving aside the question of whether the law should be changed (personally, I don't think it should - the police have access to all manner of checks by radio now and it will always be far too easy to leave home in a hurry, without papers - why criminalise yet more ordinary people?), the real issue here was the misinformation allegedly conveyed and the way in which it was done.
I'll keep trying to find the outcome of this sorry tale and will report back, if possible
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Mark,
'In South America if you don't have your papers with you the vehicle is impounded and the fines are awful.'
Come off it. In such areas there is a small 'fine' when stopped whether you are carrying your papers or not...
ihpj,
'We should, as a Police Service, persecute the good and law abiding citizens of this country who pay their dues and abide by the very letter of the law...'
Well lets be frank thats all your lot do these days...
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>>Come off it. In such areas there is a small 'fine' when stopped whether you are carrying your papers or not...
I didn't know that you had spent much time down there. Where were you ?
Lets take two;
Chile [law-abiding] - Your car *will* be impounded. You may be imprisoned.You *will* be heavily fined.
Brasil [not law-abiding] - Serious stuff. If you do not pay a very large bribe, your car *will* be impounded. It will frequently be impounded anyway because there is more money in it that way. If they decide to go the official route the fines are huge. No small fine or small bribe will be involved.
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Driving licences and vehicle registration certificates are valuable documents which need to be kept in a safe place until as and when it is necessary for them to temporarily come out of hiding. In this lawless day and age, permanently carrying them on your person or keeping them in your car cannot be classed as safe. I intend to keep my documents as safe as possible, and if that means running the risk of falling foul of the law then I will take that chance.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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