Why does everyone hate these things so much?
The arguments against just don't stack-up, as follows.
"Most people don't use their full potential". True, but the only time I ever used the FULL potential of a car is when it doesn't have much (an unloved 1.4 8 valve Megane I used to run comes to mind).
"They use a lot of fuel". True in some cases, but so do big Mercs and not many people complain about them.
"They take up a lot of space". True, but so does an Espace.
"They take up a lot of UNNECESSARY space". True, but so do most 2 seat Ferraris.
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While we're on the stereotyping issue, I have it on good authority that most Focus' (Foci?) are driven by stunningly handsome (and quite frankly, damned intelligent) young men aged 19-19.
:-)
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Adam
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While we're on the stereotyping issue, I have it on good authority that most Focus' (Foci?) are driven by stunningly handsome (and quite frankly, damned intelligent) young men aged 19-19.
Most, but -- as you point out -- not all.
No doubt you had an exception in mind when wrote that ;-)
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Damn you woman! One day, I'm going to post something that's airtight.
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Adam
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Why does everyone hate these things so much? The arguments against just don't stack-up, as follows.
[snip]
Peter, you have been rather selective in your choice orguments to knock down. It's all been gone over in lots of other threads, but you are omitting, amongst other, the evidence of the hugely-increased dangers which those vehicles pose to other road users as well as to their occupants.
You have also managed to identify other types of vehicle which share on or more of the problems which critics identify in 4X4s -- but the point about 4X4s is that they share all of them. To me, the safety problems are enough on their own to give them a black mark, but try adding them all together.
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For once, I agree with NoWheels. Well, sort of. Yes they annoy me - yes I see them as pointless for the majority. Do I care? No. Does if affect me? No.
When I get killed by getting T-Boned by a Landcruiser, by all means say "I told you so".
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Adam
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Adam
E3 to the rescue
All manual, gold Foci saloons (with boot lid rust repairs?) in the Wigan area are driven by handsome, young males aged 19.
That do you?
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Here we go again bout 4x4's & you lot know what i say with my signature? ;-)
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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Anyway what do you think of guys in their early 20's driving Ford Ka's? lol
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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"by all means say "I told you so"."
Adam? I shall be first in the Queue. Never mind tho - there will be a huge turn out at the funeral.
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I'm sure there'll be a massive turn out at the funeral RF. So many people will want to make sure I'm really gone! And of course to say, "I told you so!"
E3 - Someone sticking up for me! Finally! He's right of course people. Try and fault his logic NW!
Cheers Espada...and RF....I think.
:-)
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Adam
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E3 - Someone sticking up for me! Finally! He's right of course people. Try and fault his logic NW!
Well, if you insist ...
He left out the intelligent bit. But since he was referring to Wigan, I assumed that the omission was a deliberate act of diplomacy ;-)
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Everyone knows that all Wiganers are intelligent.
I can say that because I'm not a Wiganer!
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Adam
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I'm sorry NoWheels but 4x4s are not unsafe. No vehicle in isolation is unsafe. It's people who are unsafe.
Why do people keep banging on about the school run? Are parents supposed to buy a small car to take the kids to school? If the school is only 450 yards away as mentioned earlier, that is a different matter and has nothing to do with the size of car. That is simply idleness.
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\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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I'm sorry NoWheels but 4x4s are not unsafe. No vehicle in isolation is unsafe. It's people who are unsafe.
Not quite:pPeople on their own don't crunch other cars, and cars without drivers don't usually have accidents. It's the combination of car and driver that's unsafe (or, to be more accurate, less safe).
A bad driver in any car is more likely to be involved in a collision, but plenty of good drivers are involved in collisions too.
Either way, when a collision occurs, the 4X4 does more damage than an ordinary car.
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Cars are not unsafe!! They go where the driver tells them to at the speed the driver tells them to. If they don't stop in time it is driver error. Obviously the damage done in the event of a collision is more serious but that is no argument for banning them. The only sure way of not having accidents is not drive at all. Driver education is the way forward, not banning certain types of vehicle.
I agree with Renault Family that this topic is such a bore. I would like to see the 4x4 rants blocked by the moderators as it has been done to death so many times.
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\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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The only sure way of not having accidents is not drive at all.
Exactly. That's why we have very rigorous type approval regulations designed to make cars much safer when accidents do occur. Sooner or later, those same regulations will catch up with a category of vehicle which is much more dangerous than than the norm.
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>>That's why we have very rigorous type approval regulations designed to make cars much safer when accidents do occur. Sooner or later, those same regulations will catch up with a category of vehicle which is much more dangerous than than the norm.
Err isnt it time to realise.That a motor is not Dangerous..It is the person driving that is..A motor wont drive itself.It has to be told where to go.Why do people rely on crashometers. To say how good or bad a vehicle is on a collision.Get real. driver is one that if not used to vehicle can make a mistake.If someone in the way/something.they get damaged.It isnt the motors fault only driver.regs have nothing to do with it
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Steve
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Got to agree with Steve there I'm afraid NW. We've had this debate before though. Thrice.
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Adam
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If someone in the way/something.they get damaged.
And if bad luck, error of judgement, lapse of attention or whatever puts you in the way of an SUV, then you get much more badly damaged.
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And if bad luck, error of judgement, lapse of attention or whatever puts you in the way of an SUV, then you get much more badly damaged.
Can you point us in the direction of any credible data that are not derived from US statistics relating to American "trucks" which do not have to meet car safety requirements?
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Can you point us in the direction of any credible data that are not derived from US statistics relating to American "trucks" which do not have to meet car safety requirements?
The US studies are very relevant, because the same dangerous design features are found on lots of the 4X4s sold in Europe, including:
* high, bluff fronts with a lot of ground clearance, so that pedestrians are run over rather than thrown clear
* high and unyieleding points of impact, so that a 4X4 hitting an ordinary car will cause much more damage
* very poor low-level rear visibility -- in the USA, one parent a week kills their own child by reversing over them, see www.kidsandcars.org
Some of the new hybrid soft-roader type of vehicles reduce those dangers, but even the likes of the Honda CRV still has the most of trhe attributes which make it more likely to run over a child. Unfortunately Euro-NCAP doesn't test for that problem, which is why it is at best very misleading to cite NCAP pedestrian safety results for 4X4s.
If you want to dismiss the exentensive research in the US, why not show which of the dangerous design features are inapplicable here?
There are some intersting snippets on a website I only just found: www.stopurban4x4s.org.uk/safety.htm -- including an interesting quote from Adrian Hobbs, who is Secretary-General of NCAP and is (or was) chief research scientist at the Transport Research Laboratory in Berkshire.
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"Yawn......................here we go again!
and what about
"most Renault Clios are driven by women"
"most Ford Ka's are driven by women"
"most McLaren buggies are pushed by women"
Most of the above untrue but easy to stereotype if you want to!"
Actually its not a stereo type, all the above *ARE* true!
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But i aint a woman, i just prefer small cars!
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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I think we're going to have a thread dedicated to this type of 4wd "discussion".
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Don't encourage her Mark....please.
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Adam
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Actually you'll find it is really rather limiting. People don't like getting on their soapbox when nobody is watching.
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