HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Leon on Derv
Anyone had any dealings with HMC&E regards illegal fuel? Would be interested to hear about your experiences.

Was "done" this time last year for having red diesel in the running tank of my car. I paid 70p per litre for what I believed should have been clear diesel. This was bought from a reputable supplier (well I thought they were reputable up to that point)who provided a receipt which I offered as evidence to customs.

The initial fine of £500 was reduced to £250 because the car was filled at an attended pump and becasue I co-operated with the "investigation" such as it was.

I feel I have been "done" twice, robbed by a rogue fuel trader and mugged by HMC&E - is there any other crime where the victim is deemed to be guilty and punished.

Still bitter 12 months on......

Leon

"Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly..."
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - smokie
Where was this attended pump? In a petrol station?

Was 70p the going rate at that time?
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - dom grimes
if you did not know it was moody fuel, surely you should be able to make a claim aginst the garage selling it - providing they are still in business after customs have finished with them.
Dominic
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Leon on Derv
yip was on a forecourt, however not a shell, esso, BP etc. Location was in Northern Ireland - at the risk of injury to my health from those who profit from such activity I would prefer not to divulge the location of this garage.

70p was the supermarket price at the time. Customs confirmed this was the lowest price at which legal fuel could be possibly be sold.

I doubt customs would enter this area to conduct their investigations - when I enquired of the local police if I should pursue the owner of the outfit - they were less than enthuasiastic about my idea.

There is a possibility of it being a genuine error by the garage, but the thing that pink fluffy dice me off is that as the victim of the crime or someone elses poor judgement, why should the \"innocent party\" be charged before a full investigation has been carried out.....

Leon
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - BobbyG
Without wanting to appear naive, how did they catch you? Was it a "random" check or were they already watching the garage?
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Vansboy
& I'm still amazed at how blatant the (farmer??) fueled the Escort van, he'd just bought from Peterborough auctions was, one Friday pm.

Drive van, untaxed & no trade plates of course, into auction car park. Remove opaque 25ltr drum of 'red' from Land Rover, place drum on roof of van & syphon fuel into it!

Now where were HMC&E spies, that day?

& when they do an inspection on our accounts, I'm pulled up for claiming VAT back on a jacket, 'cos I could wear it privatly. Is DayGlo reflective yellow, with grease stains, IN this year??

VB
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Altea Ego
Good old HMC&E

They have greater powers than the police. Dont need a warrant to search or confiscate. Dont need the same powers of proof as criminal law. Had a few run ins with them during my illegal CB days. Anyone who has been on the wrong side of the VAT man will tell you all about HMC&E
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - andymc {P}
I know exactly what you mean, LoD - I think I've posted elsewhere that (at least until recently) more than half of the fuel sold here in NI was illegal one way or the other - it's either home heating oil, red diesel, red diesel with the dye bleached out with acid, or smuggled. In a high number of cases, the profits fund paramilitary organisations.

Where I live, a rural area, four local filling stations within five miles of one another (which means four out of six!) had samples of diesel taken by C&E - not one of the four samples was the same as any of the others. Unfortunately, with this happening on such a huge scale, it's simply impossible to be assured of buying fuel you know to be legal every time you fill up. I think you've been very badly treated here.

I know this is bolting the stable door somewhat, but if you're ever near Belfast or Crawfordsburn you could try the biodiesel I've used for running my Leon over the past 30k miles - always one or two pence cheaper than the average local price for derv. I can vouch for the quality and legality of the fuel (usual disclaimer that I am not connected with the supplier other than as an extremely satisfied customer) as well as the fact that you can be certain your money isn't going anywhere unsavoury. In fact, when I buy at the plant, the guy always gives me a receipt stamped "Duty Paid", in case I ever do run into C&E.
andymc
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Leon on Derv
Cheers Andy,

We did briefly discuss biodiesel on your thread a few months ago. I did take your advice and now only buy from either of the two locations to which you refer.

- slightly off subject, like yourself I am well pleased with the performance and having had numberous chats with Terry I am content all is above board. Have heard from a friend in Germany whos leon developed all sorts of problems that although Seat have no problems with using Biodiesel in their engines, the injector manufacturer has stated biodiesel will damage the injectors. I am currently awaiting more details.

Like yourself I carry the receipts and a log of my mileage in the glovebox - just in case.

It was a mobile checkpoint type customs / police operation. When I get a chance I will put the full details on here if anyone is interested.

Leon
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - andymc {P}
Ah, I'd forgotten about our chat on the other thread.

Be interested to hear why the injector manufacturer (Bosch? can't be bothered to check) would make such a claim, when the biodiesel is within the same viscosity range as derv, burns more efficiently and has higher lubricity. I'd say Terry would be interested too, or at least amused! I know that people experienced problems running straight veggie oil (not biodiesel) in cars/vans with rotary pumps (old Ford Transit springs to mind), but haven't heard anything about injectors. I'm just wondering whether this is more guff of the kind BMW tried to trot out when they claimed that biodiesel was too high in sulphur, when it doesn't contain any sulphur at all ....

BTW, not my intention to hijack your thread. Still interested in hearing anything about the C&E experience.
andymc
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - smokie
Hmmm....you surely look to be hard done by Leon.

HMC&E do seem to get above themselves sometimes - weren't they responsible for confiscating some old dear's car after a booze cruise?

HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Dynamic Dave
I would prefer not to divulge the location of this garage.


And I would appreciate that you refrain from doing so in any future posts. This site has a strict no naming and shaming policy.

DD. BR Moderator.
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Leon on Derv
heres the details for anyone who may be interested. This is a true version of events as encountered by myself.

A few weeks before Christmas Last year I was leaving Belfast City centre to head home. A few miles outside of Belfast to the south of the city I joined the end of a long queue of slow moving traffic. Believing there to be an accident ahead and knowing the area reasonably well I turned into a side street to retrace my route and take an alternative route home.

On turning into the side street a police officer on a motorcycle blocked my way ahead. He asked to see my license and asked why I had turned off the main road. I expalined that I didn\'t want to sit in the queue and there was a slightly longer route I could take home that would beat sitting in traffic. He asked if he could take a sample of diesel from my car. I agreed. I switched off my engine, and opened the fuel cap. I stood outside and chatted to the police officer, as he tried to get the syphon tube into the fuel tank. Just as I was enquiring about their success in apprehending those using illegal or \"washed\" fuel he drew off a few hundred millilitres and you guessed it it was pure red.

He radioed a colleague and asked him to send a customs official to give a second opinion. If I am being totally honest had someone asked what colour is the fuel in your tank - I would have said clear - not because I had checked its colour but because that is what I believed I had bought and paid for from the garage. The police officer was very quick to put an alternative slant on my actions. According to him I had turned away to evade a checkpoint and when my car was checked for fuel I was found to be using rebated diesel. The fact I could not see the checkpoint was irrelevant, it could have been 100 yards away or 100 miles away - to this day I don\'t know how far up the road it was. In thirty years of living in Belfast and covering 30,000 miles per year over various roads I had never until this occasion encountered such a checkpoint. I had only heard reports from others. Mainly in more rural areas.

Anyhow the customs official confirmed using only a visual check that the fuel was red diesel. I thought well trhey have taken my details they have the details of the vehilce, I will be free to go and wait for a few weeks to learn my fate. Not pink fluffy dice likely! i was given the old \"you do not have to say anything, but anything you do say....\" routine and my car keys were taken by the police officer. I was told my car would be recovered to the local police station where it would be held pending a HMC&E investigation. The customs official was about to drive off in my car when I stopped him. I asked to see some documentary evidence that he was in possession of comprehensive insurance to drive my vehicle. As he couldn\'t produce this I refused to allow him to drive. After some debate I drove my car with the customs official in the front passenger seat under police escort to the local police station. As I turned onto the main road back towards belfast, I couldn\'t believe my eyes. There were police motorcyclists chasing every car that turned away from joining the queue.

On reaching the police station my vehicle was booked in and I was promptly ejected. I questioned the police officer who stopped me regarding how I would get my car back and how soon. He was very quick to extract himself from the situation, stating only that it would be upto customs to decide that. I requested that the HMC&E duty investigator be contacted if such a person esisted. The customs officer made a phone call but said the earliest I could speak to the investigator would be early next day. I was ejected from the police station and left to my own devices to make my own way home.

Next day I called customs and they advised an investigator would meet me at a convenient time at the police station where my car was impounded.

I met with their investigator who was a guy in his early 30\'s dressed in a naval style uniform. He asked me a few questions about where and when I was stopped and what went on when I was stopped. he then tested my knowledge of the legal use of rebated fuel. He asked how much I paid for my fuel, where I bought it, did anyone else have access to my car or would anyone else have refuelled it. I co-operated fully with their enquiry and produced the receipt for my fuel. The customs officer took three small samples of fuel from my car, he asked if I wanted to take one of the three samples for independant testing, I declined his offer - tempted to make a comment about whether or not he was colour blind.

He told me the charge for a first offence was a £500 fine, but at his discretion, based on the evidence and because I had co-operated with him, this would be reduced to £250. Once I signed the statement, I posed a few questions to him. ie - without looking in the tank of my car how could he or I have told what colour the fuel was or that it was legal for that matter - I got the stock response about buy from a reputable source etc... I also enquired why I was being fined as I had acted \"in good faith\". Again stock answer about committing an offence by having this fuel in the running tank of my car. How it got there was of no consequence in this charge. I asked if it would take the gamble out of buying diesel in this country by buying it just over the border in the republic. He said possibly, but to transport it in jerry cans even for personal use, or in a modified (ie larger) running tank was illegal, and subject to a similar penalty if caught.

Finally I asked if he could give me a concession to run my vehicle for a few days to run the remaining red fuel out of it. He declined, giving me only 24hours to do this, I managed to persuade him to extend this to 36 hours as I had to work for the rest of the day.

Within one week I had recieved my fine in the post. I offered to pay the £250 over twelve months but this was declined. I was permitted to pay the full amount over six month, with the caveat that if I missed a payment customs would sieze the car to recover the outstanding amount and I would incur the costs of attributable to the seizure. There was obviuosly little to no investigation carried out with a view to tackling the source of this particular crime. It was easier to sting the victim of fraud for £250 rather than stake-out and apprehend the perpetrator of the fraud.

Apologies for the length of this posting but I think it is justified in presenting the full facts.

Leon
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - No Do$h
Regret this is an all too common example of HMC&E mightier and holier than thou attitude. The sooner they are reigned in, the better.

Even when the courts stamp on them, their response is "you can't stop us".

Grrrrr!
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - LHM
IIRC, HMC&E has its origins with the armed forces, rather than the 'civil' service - which helps to explain why it has far more draconian powers than, say, the Inland Revenue. Of course, this does not excuse such behaviour!
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Mark (RLBS)
>>Anyone had any dealings with HMC&E regards illegal fuel? Would be interested to hear about your experiences.

Providing that, like Leon's, they are related to motoring.

Mark.
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - terryb
Mark

Wouldn't illegal fuel by definition be related to motoring? :o)

Terry
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Mark (RLBS)
Central heating fuel ? Aviation fuel ? Train Fuel ? Model Airplane Fuel ? Generator Fuel ? Rocket Fuel ? Submarine Fuel ? Hot air ballon Fuel ? Factory machine fuel ? Ship Fuel ? Solid Fuel Heating ? Nuclear Fuel ? etc. etc.

And I'm sure you knew what I meant, anyway.
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - helicopter

What kind of fuel am I? - Sorry

If Diesel was a reasonable price instead of being the Chancellors favourite way of milking us then the Customs could be better employed catching the drugs,arms or people smugglers.





HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - terryb
Fuels rush in...but the day C&E start checking on my home coal bunker is the day I definitely leave the country.

Interstingly enough, I took a coach full of 49 people to Antwerp last weekend. Stopped at the chocolate and tobacco place just outside Ostend on the way out and a Calais beer & wine warehouse on the way back. Also on the way back the coach stopped to refuel with 400 litres of cheap Belgian stuff (it was less than half empty!). Anyway C&E girlie at Dover climbs aboard and asks where we've been, how long for, where we're going and then if we've stopped anywhere else. "Yes, says I, wine and beer warehouse in Calais", "What about tobacco?" she asks - quick as a flash the driver says "They don't sell tobacco in the warehouses". "Neither, it seems" says C&E girl "do corner shops in this country!", gets off coach and lets us through.

Would be much more worth her (their) while to restrict the amount of sensibly priced diesel that can be brought back. Not that I wish to give them ideas in a "free" market.....

Terry
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - helicopter
This whole tax differential on diesel in France / Belgium has I believe caused a number of Truck Operators in Kent to register their vehicles abroad to save money.

Why should we pay through the nose for fuel - I sure as hell don't see the benefit in Road Construction.

Regarding tobacco there was a story recently that the best selling rolling tobacco in Britain was a brand called Drum beating Old Holborn and Golden Virginia.

The thing is its not for sale in the UK shops , its all brought in from abroad for 'personal' use and sold in pubs etc. I think the customs lady may have had a point and thank heavens a sense of humour - a quality I do find sadly lacking in a lot of uniforms.

HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - terryb
Helicopter
Definitely a sense of humour - and very easy on the eye too. As you say, qualities all too often lacking in those in authority.

Terry
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - smokie
Have just remembered that bro-in-law (works in senior position at the Treasury) quizzed me once on buying fags in pubs. The revenue lost to the country through illegal reselling of foreign fags is staggering...
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - terryb
So much for the European single market then :o)

To drag this back to motoring (looks over shoulder to see if Mark's watching), I know HMC&E's powers extend beyond the port and right across the country. If they caught someone flogging contraband to landlords could they then confiscate the smuggler's car (or the landlord's)?

Terry
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - Altea Ego
Yes. They can (if he owns it) even confiscate and sell the landlords pub!
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - helicopter
To bring it even further back to the point , why can't they close down the garage (s) that sold the illicit red stuff to Leon in the first place?
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - frostbite
Since it was in NI, it was probably a no-go area.
HMC&E - An out of control private army?? - helicopter
The trouble is that LoD went there and I am sympathetic to his cause. I can understand the fear of retribution if an individual complains back to the source of supply but not the reasons why Customs or Police have taken no action against all garages selling the red stuff, especially if the problem in NI is as widespread as is suggested above.
Does anybody our there know of any garage prosecutions in NI for this offence?