Well as an ex HR exec, and leaving aside the legal eagles who bill for 16 hours but only work 8 --TIC, what about the go-getter employee, say salesperson, who really grafts and puts in all manner of voluntary excess hours because that's the kind of worker he is (I assume they stil have a few like that left in UK ;-)), meets and exceeds targets consistently, and that's how he likes to work. Do I take him one side and say sorry old chap you're bringing in too much revenue which means you're working too hard and I'l have to ask you to make a few less sales?
Or the self-employed businessman who is probably working 16 hours a day just to build his business/keep afloat.
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That's why I tried to differentiate between the types of rep. Growler. I suppose if someone chooses to do something because they're highly motivated etc. that's up to them and I don't see how a company could be held responsible since it's the individual's choice. There are still plenty of people here who fit that bill - I have 2 brothers who have more money than they'll ever need and numerous friends/contacts for whom money and success is the Holy Grail.
That's not the same, however, as being effectively forced to exceed the rules/limits because the territory you've been given and are targeted on is simply too big or, in the case of a bus driver, the bus you have is too congested and your timetable impossible to stict to.
Once again I find myself having to say I'm not suggesting what's right for everyone here, just posing the question. Being self employed (albeit almost retired) there've been plenty of times when I've burned the midnight oil and that was my choice, not dictated by an unrealistic employer. If I'd have caused a car crash through the resulting stress/ tiredness I have had only myself to blame.
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BTW that should read ".... in the case of a bus driver, the ROUTE you have is too congested..."
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There have been some occassions in the past when I've worked three/four days non-stop without sleep. Its only when you take a holiday that you realise how tired you've become and end up sleeping 12 hour stretches to make up for it.
Thankfully I've grown older and wiser now and I try to enjoy life more and live at a slower pace; I'm far less status and money concious than I used to be.
No one can function properly and make sound decisions when very tired and stressed; I'm sure the current high-stress working culture is responsible for risk taking and 'nodding off' behind the wheel.
No doubt Growler will tell us things are different in Asia - but then life is much cheaper (in every sense) out there.
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Middle East is a standard 6 day week. We used to work our delivery couriers 0730 to 2100 with 2 hours off in the middle of the day. That was the deal. But then we were all there for the money.
But don't get the wrong idea. Asia has well codified and defined Labor Laws, people just work harder as a rule because that's the ethic.
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The onus on health and safety falls both on the employer and the driver/employee.
With reference to the go getter rep who works his butt off, that is his responsibility. If he causes another Selby due to lack of sleep or is tired he will be prosecuted. If he knowingly drives a car that has faults he again will be at fault.
However the employer would be legally culpable if they refused him reasonable overnight hotel bills, his targets and territory were too big, operated a policy of badly maintained cars etc etc. They should also be able to prove they offer education and or health and safety awareness to the employee.
I have in the past driven three hours, worked from 7am till midnight, and then driven three hours home. It was foolish and dangerous and I would have shouldered full blame in the event of a fatal accident because my employer had the facility to book an expensed hotel, and had made me aware of the risks of such working practises.
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Good on you Aprilia and very informative RF. Anyone know if a rep. or similar has ever successfully brought a case for unacceptable or intolerable working conditions ? I've dealth with hundreds of sales people of the years and whilst many of them appeared to have impossible jobs/targets were highly stressed and accordingly either resigned or were 'let go', none ever mentioned the possibility of taking legal advice/action as a result.
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Don't suppose anyone fancies a tachograph in their Mondeo though, do they?
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That's a good point (even if TIC) but it wouldn't be necessary if territories weren't too large to cover and targets unrealistic. That's the route of the problem I believe and probably the cause of much of the stress, road rage and carnage we see on our roads.
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Volvoman
Lets get to basics. Salesmen are a simple breed. They are motivated by a few simple things. Money and status. Usually status within their peer group. And that status has to be visible.
So status is shown by having a higher spec car than an inferior member of the same pack. The Rolex has to be bright shiney and visible. Status is being on the top of the sales chart that month. The award visible on the desk.
But the big motivator is money. Money to be earned with bonuses.
Now any sales manager worth his salt knows that to set an unrealistic sales target, something that can never be reached, is a real downer. Aggressive yes. Stretch it at the right times yes. But something that can never be reached demotivates faster than being given a 1.2 clio as a company car.
Show me a company with impossible sales targets and I will show you a failing company.
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You're right to an extent RF but companies do often set unrealistic targets and the fact that this may be a sign of a bad, stupid or failing company is no comfort to the poor employee - you know the one who isn't a Rolex wearing high flyer and is just trying to earn a reasonable living but can't. Can't name names here of course but I've experience of numerous companies - field sales, retail, manufacturing, etc. etc. who routinely set impossible targets for all but a very few. Some of these are very big names and in a difficult economic climate tend to pass the buck onto the sales staff Yes, the few survivors at the top do very, very well, but I've lost count of the number of times I've dealt with a rep. at the end of his/her tether because they're being asked to achieve the impossible for all sorts of reasons.
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Yes agreed to an extent VM. Problem is its a high pressure job, with rewards based on results, and a lot of people are just not cut out for that kind of role. Good sales managers will exert a little pain, squeeze a few sensitive parts. Those that can will, those that cant squeel.
*There has always been, and will always be an element of putting on the pressure to weed out the non performers. Fact of life I am afraid. One way of doing this is to lump the poor performers with unreachable targets, and make them or break them. The broken ones leave. I suspect these are the ones you meet.*
Principle still holds tho, Alienate and demotivate the majority of your sales workforce and you will loose market share. Unhappy salesmen means unhappy customers and declining revenue.
*Getting back on track, if one of those in the process of being made or broken were to cause loss of life in a motoring related accident, and there was no company backup as I described earlier, the company would have a case to answer under health and safety legislation.
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they would also have a case to answer, even with all the facilities you spoke of above, if it could be shown that they were aware that their employee was pushing too hard.
For example, simply making it possible to book a hotel for the night is insufficient. they must make you aware that it is available, explain to you why it is available, explain to you the risks of not taking advantage and if they subsequently become aware that you are not using the facility and are driving too tired, then must then take positive and firm steps to resolve the situation.
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So, aside from the fact that a sales rep. in such a situation would have a possible remedy in law (tribunal?), if he/she were involved in a serious accident, for example, as a result of the stress and impossible demands placed upon him/her, the company could well be liable in law.
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I know a bank area manager that has the same problems, he has recently picked up 2 speeding convictions due to time constraints.
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Yes, retail is just about the most competitive sector there is and I've dealt with plenty of stressed up area/relief managers who've no doubt been forced to take similar chances due to the workload placed upon them and for fear of otherwise losing their jobs.
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they would also have a case to answer, even with all the facilities you spoke of above, if it could be shown that they were aware that their employee was pushing too hard. For example, simply making it possible to book a hotel for the night is insufficient. they must make you aware that it is available, explain to you why it is available, explain to you the risks of not taking advantage and if they subsequently become aware that you are not using the facility and are driving too tired, then must then take positive and firm steps to resolve the situation.
Mark yes that was the message I meant to convey. In effect provide the resources and inform, educate, and police conformance to the policy.
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A previous bus company employer of mine used to (as all bus companies do) set massively unrealistic timetables and therefore speeding was essential.
However, the same company had use of a Home Office approved speed gun and would use said gun to catch their own drivers speeding whilst trying to keep to their wholly unrealistic timetables. Double standards if ever I saw them.
PP
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PP - I suspected this would be the case (although not the use of speed guns to trap their own drivers!!) and that's why I included bus drivers in my original post. I use buses quite a lot nowadays and feel I have a very good idea of the sort of stress they have to put up with not only with respect to timetables but also other drivers and of course low life passengers! A much maligned bunch IMO.
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You're too kind Volvoman, I'm glad you've seen and believed the bus driver experience.
PP
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Serious Question here. Apart from getting buses out of the depot and back again ASAP and maximising time on the road, what is the business benefit of setting a timetable that can not be acheived, bearing in mind you may loose your franchise if timetable performance is not met?
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The majority of routes are perfectly timed, at least they would be if there were no other vehicles on the road, every traffic light was green, and most importantly, there are no intending passengers.
PP
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'Show me a company with impossible sales targets and I will show you a failing company.'
Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson?
Matt35.
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volvoman
- can you enlighten us please, why do you want an answer to this question?
Matt35'Show me a company with impossible sales targets and I will show you a failing company.'
Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson? >>
Surely you mean "UK plc. " ?
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Hi eMBe - no other reason than the fact that in a quiet moment the other day I was thinking about the stresses of life and how people cope. It occured to me that whislt some groups seem to have a clear remedy and often exercise this to secure compensation worth ££££'s for what seem like relatively trivial issues, I've had men and women on the phone to me virtually suicidal because they're being aksed to do the impossible and are unable to make ends meet. I then started wondering why it is/appears that so few people in the aforementioned sectors seem either aware of or willing to exercise their remedy. I've never much liked being told what to do by people derserving on no respect (hence the self-employed route I took years ago) and I do think employers should have a responsibility for the welfare of their staff whether they be office workers or sales reps. Sadly my experiences have proved to me that this remedy is rarely used and it is often other people who pay the price of the employer's inability to manage what we're often told are their most important assets i.e. their staff, their families and, possibly, the wholly innocent victims of any resulting negligence. I don't like this situation much and would like to change it - hence the question. I'd also like anyone who visits this place and is in that unenviable position to be aware of their rights and act accordingly. What else I may do about it will have to wait a while however 'cos I've got rather a lot on my own plate at the moment.
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