Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Petebham
Ok - we're having a mare with an alfa (shock!) - i'm after some advice as we're pulling our hair out!

Bought a 159 as a non runner (v6) - after investigation it turns out there was limited/no compression when tested... Diagnostics show a crankshaft sensor error. It has a timing chain (3 of them)... And it would try to start - but ultimately wouldnt.

Anyway, after a few hours of tinkering we decided to call it a day and sell the thing on - it was due to be collected yesterday.... Half an hour before the truck was due to arrive we tried to push the thing off the drive and, for a bit of a laugh i said 'lets press the start button again.... Y'know, just for kicks!'

Would you believe it, the thing b***** started... Drove lovely for a couple of miles and idled perfectly. But the engine had no ******** compression when tested by ourselves and the place we bought it from.

Pulled key out and now it wont start again.

Soooooo.... We ran diagnostics again - crankshaft sensor error. Got it lifted to a garage who will fit the sensor for us.

Garage do a compression test and - no compression. Good bloke at garage says we're just wasting money by chucking a £300 sensor at it - needs furher investigation and its probably timing chain... At worst a new £2500 engine.

Right, i'm hoping someone can offer advice on next steps... Anyone any experience of this sort of thing before? How the hell does an engine start with almost zero compression???!

Any help/advice appreciated


(And no, this isn't a wind-up!! I know i've just rewritten the laws of engineering!)

Edited by Petebham on 17/10/2015 at 10:01

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - hardway

Dissapearing compression,

only thing I can think could account for that and the fact that it DID run then wont again would be a fault with the hydraulic valve lifters.

I,E the oil iswrong,

drain the sump and I would remove all the lifters and squeeze all the oil out of them.

I just put them into the bench vise and close the vice th squeeze all the oil out.

Refill the sump with the correct oil grade and WITH THE SPARK PLUGS OUT!

Spin the engine over until the oil lamp goes off.

refit the plugs and give it a go.

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Big John

Don't know the engine but to be able to run and then have zero compression sounds like some sort of valve timing issue or something holding vlaves open (sticking or hydraulic tappets).

I had a problem with an old Ford years ago which had been stood for a while where the valves were sticking open due to being stood!

With yours could be a timing chain /tensioners issue or does it have variable valve timing?

An inspection camera down inserted down a spark plug hole to see whats happening re valves as you turn the engine should help diagnose

Edited by Big John on 17/10/2015 at 11:47

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - jc2

We had a similar concern years ago with an Escort-turned out to be use of 20w/50 oil instead of recommended 10w/30.

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - bathtub tom
I had a problem with an old Ford years ago which had been stood for a while where the valves were sticking open due to being stood!

Often cured by dribbling some Redex UCL into the carb with the engine turning.

How to create your own smokescreen!

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - madf
I had a problem with an old Ford years ago which had been stood for a while where the valves were sticking open due to being stood!

Often cured by dribbling some Redex UCL into the carb with the engine turning.

How to create your own smokescreen!

In 1967 - as a poor student - I bought a wroking 1957 Rover 90. Lots of rust but the chassis looked like teh Forth road Bridge so OK. The engine was rather tired so sprak plugs out, Redex into bores and leave 48 hours.

Started it up and drove down the lane we lived in and along the main road. It was a cold windless day: we left a trail of gray smoke about 10 meters high for about a mile.... and it just stayed there and made the return journey rather smelly..

The engine ran well afterwards!

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Petebham
Thanks to all for taking the time to reply.

I wonder if someone could clarify... Would this engine have started if the timing chains were at fault? I'm going to garage tomorrow to discuss next steps and i have a feeling that that will be the way they want to go...

The logic behind the valves not closing properly being caused by wrong oil sounds like it is probably worth investigating before they start pulling engines out... As is testing the crankshaft sensor before replacing it (resistance test i guess???)

I strongly suspect that there is an issue with the valves which can be resolved 'remotely' and not having to pull the thing to bits ... But the timing chains are going to come up in conversation and i see no point replacing if the car wouldnt start if they were sligtly stretched....

If i may ask... What steps would you take? From a conversation i had on friday with the garage a rather expensive timing belt change would resolve... But i'm reluctant as i dont feel thats the issue.
Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - hardway

IF the chain timing wa at fault that implies the chain has jumped teeth,

that would knock the valve timing to hell,

meaning valves were open when thet should be closed,

that does happen.

BUT I've never heard of the chains jumping back into alignment just so you can go for a spin then jumping back.

Now it is concievable that a fault with the chain tensioners "could" create valve timing varience,

but that brings us back to oil,

as far as I can recall all 3 tensioners are ol pressured,

So I would want every drop of oil out the engine,

thats why I suggested squeezing the followers in a vice,

Which grantedis over 20 hours labour to remove and refit!

Though it is just possible to lever the followers closed while still in the head,

all oil must come out!!

Chain timing check is around 4 hours labour.

At that point if your garage has a cylinder leak down tester the exact cause of the compression loss can be pinpointed.

But even without all this if you were to come into me with the stated facts my prime suspect is still going to be oil problem resultng in jacked up followers.

It really doesn't take much for the follower to open the valve enough for enough compression loss to make a no start,

Ignore the CAS for now,

It's irrelevant until there's compression.

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Big John

BUT I've never heard of the chains jumping back into alignment just so you can go for a spin then jumping back.

Ignore the CAS for now,

Unless its got variable valve timing thats not working (I'm suspecting it does)- especially if the engine management unit doesnt know the crankshaft position.

The variable valve can hugely vary the valve timing to get the best out the injection and minimise the need for EGRs etc - and there is enough scope in the setup to leave the engine without compression.

By the fact it has been running for a while probably rules out cam chain. Crankshaft sensors do fail in an intermittent way - you have already seen it working briefly and its logged a fault with this -

You have a known fault with the crank sensor - I'd fix that and go from there.

Edited by Big John on 18/10/2015 at 11:32

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - V4 Heaven
Odd that you make reference to Alfas being unreliable when you bought it as a known non runner in the first place.
Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Big John

Taken from else where on the internet:-

"Numerous important components have been designed from scratch and are exclusive to the Alfa Romeo V6 engine. To start with, the cylinder head is aluminium and has 4 valves per cylinder, 2 camshafts per bank with the "Twin Phaser" continuous variable valve timing (intake and exhaust) already adopted on Alfa Romeo 4-cylinder engines and now applied on a 6-cylinder engine for the first time. Variable valve timing allows the phase angle on both cams to be varied by 50°, maximising performance on one hand, because the best phase can be chosen at all engine speeds, and reducing consumption and emissions with partial loads on the other."

Change the sensor first


Edited by Big John on 18/10/2015 at 11:43

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Big John

Also - I'd find a specialist garage that understands this great but very complex engine

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - hardway

All valid coments on engine complexity,

BUT my statement stands.

compression has to be established!

Before anything else.

It is a compression engine

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Big John

All valid coments on engine complexity,

BUT my statement stands.

compression has to be established!

Before anything else.

It is a compression engine

But what I'm trying to say the variable valve setup can leave valves partiality open on compression
Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - Big John

Its needs crank sensor to calculate where crank rotation is. This then sorts valve timing which should sort compression and as previously shown shoul run the engine.

Id still change that sensor first (its cheap) everything else gets expensive

Alfa Romeo 159 - Alfa 159 3.2 - having a mare - hardway

Acceptable,

But as the crank angle signal is fixed a simple occilliscope trace will show an acceptable trace or not.

One of the easier traces to "see" a faulty" pattern.

And a test that does not even require the engine to start.