Self driving. - Non skilled driving

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 07:14
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - HGV ~ P Valentine

What are the six SAE levels of self-driving cars? (msn.com)

I saw this and wondered on your thoughts ?

For me I love driving, made a career of of driving lasting 35 years ( I am 58 ) driving all sorts including class 1 training ( alas I did not pass ) and most people believe I should not have failed for the reason the examiner gave, including my instructor, anyway forget all that I am mussing about class 1.

I have always believed that the more automation you get on a car the less skilled the driver/passenger becomes, for example I do not need abs to prevent myself from losing control under braking, because I do not leave it until the last minute to start the procedure of slowing down or stopping. etc etc etc

I can park the car both forward and parallel park without having to engage anything other then my eyes and the skill of my driving, I can maintain the speed of a car on level ground and over hills without electronic aid. But this is not about me, but I do wonder if those who advocate electronic assistance still have the ABILITY to drive ?

It will never happen but, I would love to put those with modern cars that do everything, into an older car where, if the driver does not do it then it aint going to happen. From forgetting to turn the heater mode to windscreen only and leaving the windows slightly open initially to help clear the windscreen, to the more complicated thing of getting the vehicle at the right speed for the corner, in the right gear.

I simply do not like where the industry of machine driving is going, with people being on the sidelines. I also find it disturbing that in the adverts the companies are displaying someone operating it illegally by sitting in the passenger seat reading a book, when the law states you still have to be sitting in the driving seat ( yea right ) ready to jump in when the self driving machine decides to go on strike.

[Amended typo in header - Mod]

Edited by Xileno on 25/10/2023 at 10:53

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 07:29
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - mcb100
‘ I also find it disturbing that in the adverts the companies are displaying someone operating it illegally by sitting in the passenger seat reading a book, when the law states you still have to be sitting in the driving seat ‘

Which adverts? Is it Tesla in the US?

Like the vast majority of cars on the roads, ours have ABS. But I can’t (thankfully) remember the last time I activated it. It’s not about the ability to offer a chauffeur’s stop at the traffic lights, it’s about retaining more control of the car whilst under emergency stop conditions whilst different tyres have differing levels of grip.
Yes, you can cadence brake, but that’s taking braking effort away from tyres that are still in good contact with the road, whilst ABS will can do a better job than any of us by monitoring grip of a tyre by tyre basis.

Edited by mcb100 on 25/10/2023 at 07:49

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 07:51
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - badbusdriver

Your job is a driver, whereas most people on the road are commuters. it seems apparent from previous posts that you don't seem to be able to get past your own opinion and point of view, but consider that for a moment.

Someone driving to work, a job which entails a lot of stress, a lot of physical work, a demanding job mentally, long hours, etc, etc. Those people, rightly, want to get to and from their work with the minimum of added hassle. If the car can make the journey to work easier, and assuming all the automation systems work as they should, that is absolutely fine with me. As far as I am concerned, less over tired, stressed, anxious, unskilled drivers being in control of a car the better.

You love driving (good for you), IMO most people don't, it is simply a means to an end.

It will never happen but, I would love to put those with modern cars that do everything, into an older car where, if the driver does not do it then it aint going to happen.

Why?

I also find it disturbing that in the adverts the companies are displaying someone operating it illegally by sitting in the passenger seat reading a book

Please provide a link to one or two of these adverts you are referring to, because I have never seen any.

A rambling diatribe of a post which doesn't appear to serve any purpose other than "proving" how much better a driver you are than most others on the road.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 08:31
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - Xileno

Apart from the claimed Tesla advert that we haven't seen to comment on, the subject seems a reasonable one to discuss (And I'm sure we have before in relation to certain modern car features such as electric handrakes)

To what extent is modern technology deskilling the driver?

Does this matter?

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 08:41
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - skidpan

In recent weeks I have seen incredibly poor (and sometimes dangerous) behaviour by what the OP would consider to be "professional" drivers. Their lane discipline is abysmal, they seem not to have a clue what to do at roundabouts and I have had more than one sit inches from my rear bumper when I have been in a 60 mph zone of the M1 trying to frighten me out of the way.

Based on that I cannot wait for the day when HGV's have more self driving technology that stops these drivers threatening the safety of normal road users.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 08:49
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - badbusdriver

I enjoy driving under certain circumstances, but it is just a necessary evil most of the time.

I see truly appalling driving standards being displayed every day and I find it difficult to imagine automated cars driving themselves to a lower standard (assuming their systems work as they should).

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 09:48
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - John F

I see truly appalling driving standards being displayed every day ...

After time, it's normal to take one's expertise for granted and forget that some people are mentally incapable of being educated to GCSE standard and some are physically incapable of complex neuromuscular co-ordination. To be good at something, continual practice is necessary. Some need hardly ever to drive at all. I read yesterday that a prominent Scottish politician eventually passed her driving test - aged over 50 - in an automatic car. I guess the skill of double declutching down through the gears of loaded vehicle ascending a hill is rapidly becoming extinct.

Edited by John F on 25/10/2023 at 09:51

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 11:19
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - badbusdriver

I see truly appalling driving standards being displayed every day ...

After time, it's normal to take one's expertise for granted and forget that some people are mentally incapable of being educated to GCSE standard and some are physically incapable of complex neuromuscular co-ordination.

Not sure either is relevant to what I see on a daily basis.

From my observations of poor driving, I would say there are two camps. First are the aggressive and selfish drivers drive, made worse by the never ending quest/need for more speed and power (way more than is necessary). On top of that, cars are so big, and laden to the gunnels with the means to protect the occupants in all but the most extreme crashes. So those aggressive and selfish drivers give not the slightest consideration to other vehicle drivers/occupants who may end up being victims of their ill judged speed/overtaking manoeuvre.

Second camp is the "distracted" drivers, those paying at least as much attention to their smartphone as the road. Just the other day I was faced with an LGV coming towards me drifting over to my side of the road, his head jerked up (presumably from his smartphone) with about half his wagon on my side of the road and he swerved back to his side of the road. Scary!.

If the general standard of driving I see was good, I would see no need for automated vehicles. But it isn't so, IMO, (and again emphasising that the automation works as it should) self driving vehicles can't come quick enough.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 12:16
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - bazza

Well all I can say is that there is absolutely no way I would want to go back to a car without ABS. It saved me from hitting a car sat across the main road one dark wet morning, the fact that I still had steering meant I missed it. There is no way I could have achieved that through manual cadence braking.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 13:15
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - alan1302

I see truly appalling driving standards being displayed every day ...

After time, it's normal to take one's expertise for granted and forget that some people are mentally incapable of being educated to GCSE standard and some are physically incapable of complex neuromuscular co-ordination.

Not sure either is relevant to what I see on a daily basis.

From my observations of poor driving, I would say there are two camps. First are the aggressive and selfish drivers drive, made worse by the never ending quest/need for more speed and power (way more than is necessary). On top of that, cars are so big, and laden to the gunnels with the means to protect the occupants in all but the most extreme crashes. So those aggressive and selfish drivers give not the slightest consideration to other vehicle drivers/occupants who may end up being victims of their ill judged speed/overtaking manoeuvre.

Second camp is the "distracted" drivers, those paying at least as much attention to their smartphone as the road. Just the other day I was faced with an LGV coming towards me drifting over to my side of the road, his head jerked up (presumably from his smartphone) with about half his wagon on my side of the road and he swerved back to his side of the road. Scary!.

If the general standard of driving I see was good, I would see no need for automated vehicles. But it isn't so, IMO, (and again emphasising that the automation works as it should) self driving vehicles can't come quick enough.

And the third camp - driving very slowly without good cause...was following behind someone doing 25mph in a NSL - no reason for it.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 10:42
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - Maxime.

Love the title.

Self diving.

[Now corrected so the Search facility will find it - Mod]

Edited by Xileno on 25/10/2023 at 10:55

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 11:16
Self diving. - Non skilled driving - Terry W

There is satisfaction in deploying skills, whether driving a car well, or any other task requiring hand/eye/brain coordination - eg: welding, woodworking, crochet, painting etc etc.

That a large part of the population have no interest in driving should not be a criticism. The technology which ensures their much safer progress is to be welcomed.

In a few years autonomous vehicles may be commonplace once it is proven they are safer than flesh and blood drivers. In a couple of decades automated transport may be the norm - those wanting to "drive" will need extra training and face very high insurance costs.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 12:39
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - Andrew-T

I do not need ABS to prevent myself from losing control under braking, because I do not leave it until the last minute to start the procedure of slowing down or stopping.

That is fine if you can be certain to have time to anticipate every problem you might meet while driving - not forgetting patches of black ice, for example ?

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 16:33
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - Adampr

I do not need ABS to prevent myself from losing control under braking, because I do not leave it until the last minute to start the procedure of slowing down or stopping.

That is fine if you can be certain to have time to anticipate every problem you might meet while driving - not forgetting patches of black ice, for example ?

I disable my airbags and drive with no seatbelt as I have no intention of crashing.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 13:12
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - alan1302

For me I love driving, made a career of of driving lasting 35 years ( I am 58 ) driving all sorts including class 1 training ( alas I did not pass ) and most people believe I should not have failed for the reason the examiner gave, including my instructor, anyway forget all that I am mussing about class 1.

You do realise you can do the test again?

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 16:28
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - gordonbennet

Someone who has worked a job for many years jolly well should be better at it than someone who only does that job at best part time.

I wouldn't expect to go whipping out varicose veins or teeth to the same standards as the doctor or dentist (i'd manage but whether the victim survived is another question entirely), so why should someone who drives for a living, and presumably takes a pride in their work, expect what should be expert standards of driving finesse from said doc/dentist.

In reality the standards of driving from some alleged professionals has deteriorated drastically, it doesn't help that commercial vehicles and buses are now as easy to drive as a car, at one time they weren't which tended to limit the types who would be able, but no one's going to turn the clock back.

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 17:00
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - madf

I used to love driving:

But at 76 years of age, reversing is a pain, changing gear is a pain and roads can at times be very busy.

SO I drive an auto ,use reversing aids and would happily accept fully automated transport if feasible: It is NOT as many roads I use are in out of the way places with single track roads. Passing is by passing places or going onto the verges. There are LOTS of drivers incapable of reversing 4 meters in their new SUVs let alone 40 meters downhill to a passing place. So I have to reverse uphill 200 meters.

And horses!

Fully automated driving in those conditions is going to be "challenging".

And that is before mud or snow..

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Wed 25 Oct 2023 17:18
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - skidpan

It will never happen but, I would love to put those with modern cars that do everything, into an older car where, if the driver does not do it then it aint going to happen. From forgetting to turn the heater mode to windscreen only and leaving the windows slightly open initially to help clear the windscreen, to the more complicated thing of getting the vehicle at the right speed for the corner, in the right gear.

I own both those cars.

The Superb iV has all mod cons, its a doddle to drive.

The Caterham does not have any mod cons (other than a heated screen which is essential with the lack of any vents to clear the screen when the hood is up - not had mine up since about 2006). There is no power steering, no power brakes, no windows to leave slight open.

With the short gear lever the change is fairly heavy on the 5 speed Sierra V6 gearbox) but with the right combination of clutch parts (Granada/Scorpio) at least you don't require monster leg muscles.

The 2 litre Focus Zetec engine is docile enough for granny to drive to the shops with its Jenvey/MBE injection system despite putting out about 175 bhp. Pulls from idle to 6800 rpm (safe to 7200) in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, 4th and 5th need a few more revs, 1500 is plenty enough.

And if you think getting the right speed in the right gear for a corner is difficult you should send your license back

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Wed 1 Nov 2023 00:25
Self driving. - Non skilled driving - edlithgow

I suspect I'm not a particularly good driver. so the world might have potentially benefited from me having all these fancy driving aid gizmo's.

Whether this would enhance or detract from the little pleasures involved in driving I dunno, never having had any, but I have owned an automatic, and didnt much like it.

I wouldn't want the gizmos because they would make it harder for me to maintain the car. I understand that even your basic ABS makes it a lot harder to work on brakes, and a dynamic stability control system, also IIRC now mandatory on new cars, seems likely to be impossible for DIY.

So no thanks.

Fortunately I wont have to maintain the bus so dont care what gadgets its burdened with,

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