Two wheeled maniacs - Raymond
I have the misfortune to live and drive a car in London.
The increase in bikes and particularly scooters in this city is understandable. The way most of them ride is not.

Their aggressive, ill-mannered and downright dangerous riding is infuriating and is starting to provoke a backlash from car drivers.

I speak as an ex-biker.
Two wheeled maniacs - Darren
Is the backlash caused by the fact that these bikes/scooters will not need to pay congestion charges and can more often find parking.

Or is it that whenever you leave any gap it is quickly filled by one of these leaving no margin for safety.
Two wheeled maniacs - KB.
Statistically, you can take comfort from the fact that you, the car driver, stand a much, much higher chance of making old bones than the riders who cause the irritation. I've also ridden cycles and motor-cycles, so have some sympathy/empathy/understanding.....but am also very aware of the desperately hazardous things I see. The fact is, if one drives into you or I (or vice versa) you or I will very likely survive with just the administrative inconvenience assosiated with an accident. He/she will have their legs and pelvis bent into all manner of odd shapes - with all the inconveniece assosiated with that. The motorcyclists reading this will are, I feel, more likely to be a bit older and safer and less likely to need reminding of the dangers - the ones who would benefit from a salutory lesson are probably doing other things.


KB.
Two wheeled maniacs - Tom Shaw
The majority of bikers are well aware of their vulnerability and ride accordingly, but there is an element whose riding style makes the blood run cold. A couple of years ago I was going through the Limehouse Link when both lanes were moving at about 15mph in heavy traffic. Down the narrow gap in the middle comes a dispatch rider, doing about 40+. Keeping the bike vertical he was flicking his body from side to side on the saddle to just avoid contact with the vehicles he was passing. A highly skilled bit of riding, well beyond my capabilities but all it needed was one little twitch from a driver and he was in a big accident.

I often wonder what it was that made him put so much trust in a couple of hundred strangers to hold a perfect line in order that he would not die.
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
I hope all bikers here keep safe, as well as all car drivers.
HF
Two wheeled maniacs - JamesH
I still don't understand why motorcyclists can't use bus lanes.

Since they do cut congestion and weaving amongst the cars is dangerous, surely letting them use that empty piece of road on the left is sensible?


James
Two wheeled maniacs - JamesH
I still don't understand why motorcyclists can't use bus lanes.

Since they do cut congestion and weaving amongst the cars is dangerous, surely letting them use that empty piece of road on the left is sensible?


James
Two wheeled maniacs - JamesH
Sorry, didn't mean to post twice!
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
Motorcyclists DO use bus lanes!!! See Toad's postings, it's common bike policy!
HF
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
Motorcyclists DO use bus lanes!!! See Toad's postings, it's common bike policy!

HF>>

It's aso common car policy!

However, if you get it wrong and pick up a fine it's also expensive whatever you're on/in.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
Hi, I believe that in some cities they can, I think it't Bristol that's trying it and I think my own town is in the process of gearing up for it, however here in Sheffield that could mean about the same time as oil runs out.
You're right about the way some 2 wheelers ride, especially the young kids on the 50cc scooters, but as a motorcyclist, bike rider and car driver I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that for every idiot riding there's one driving. Several people I know are of the opinion that no one should be allowed to drive a car until they have learnt to ride a bike, there's nothing I've tried that makes you so aware of how much force and possible damage can be caused by a vehicle, either 2 or more wheels. Common sense really!

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Shigg, yours is the posting making sense here.

Maybe just maybe it's the congestion, the cost, the inconvenience caused by all those cages and an oppressive gov't regime towards roadusers that's causing all that 2-wheel proliferation.

Maybe just maybe they're the ones adapting to change.......

I also agree that there is no education better than motorcycling to a deep understanding of road surfaces, conditions, weather effect, braking distances, consequences of one's actions.
With your knees out there in the wind you're a lot less likely to doze along listening to the radio at 80 mph and a lot more likely to be aware of what's going on around you.

I remain both a rider and a cager and am convinced the experience of the former is invaluable in that of being the latter. Given always, proper rider education.

Doesn't mean you won't get the rice-boy idiots on their plastic fantastics pulling wheelies while lane-splitting in falling snow at over 80 mph on the M25, as I saw two do the other week. 700lb Harleys can't do that :->, so that along with anno domini makes us old dogs a bit more responsible, if only from the standpoint of self-preservation.

My daughter studies in UK. The trains don't work, the buses hardly ever appear, she can't get to class on time, the fares are ludicrous, running a car is a rip-off there's nowhere to put it and you're forever dealing with little Adolfs (all these are her words, not mine). So she buys a scooter. It'a a no-brainer for her and she must be one of an increasing many. As her old man, I wish she wouldn't but she has no choice period.

So even Einstein would probably agree it's an increasing phenomenon.

Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Sorry, I somehow zapped my final para which was aimed at bringing me back to the thread point. THis is that car-drivers in many cases also have to show more consideration and understanding of the two-wheelers' situations. Many car drivers speak as though they own primacy over road use (perhaps not unreasonable given the way UK govt gouges them) without taking into account 2 wheelers have the same rights.

I have seen in UK< and it's very common here as well, examples of motorists deliberately taking out their envy on bikers in their frustration at traffic conditions by crowding, blocking or harassing them. Maybe they should try a spell on two wheels to open their eyes. They might even enjoy it (but not in the winter!)
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
Sorry, I somehow zapped my final para which was aimed at
bringing me back to the thread point. THis is that car-drivers
in many cases also have to show more consideration and understanding
of the two-wheelers' situations. Many car drivers speak as though they
own primacy over road use (perhaps not unreasonable given the way
UK govt gouges them) without taking into account 2 wheelers have
the same rights.
I have seen in UK< and it's very common here as
well, examples of motorists deliberately taking out their envy on bikers
in their frustration at traffic conditions by crowding, blocking or
harassing them. Maybe they should try a spell on two wheels
to open their eyes. They might even enjoy it (but not
in the winter!)


Growler, I try all the time to look out for motorcyclists, of any type, scooters, bikes,whatever. In fact it's a major priority of mine, having learned what the roads are like for bikers.

But yeah, guess you're right, a lot of motorists will simply take out their frustrations on a biker- why, I do not know, but yes, it happens.
HF
Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
Is the irony of the Honda Jazz advert lost on many people? Hopefully those who need to will take heed.

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - Raymond
In London bikes do use bus lanes all the time and I have no difficulty with that. Whether it is illegal or not is irrelevant as they ignore most of the rules and laws of the road anyway.

The latest fad is to pass 'keep left' islands on the right and force oncoming drivers to swerve to avoid them.
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
"The latest fad is to pass 'keep left' islands on the right and force oncoming drivers to swerve to avoid them. "

Sorry Raymond, it's not the latest fad it's benn going on for years, often provoked by car drivers being so close to islands but aggravated now by the car being forced over by bus lanes.

The aim, though, is to do it WITHOUT inconveniencing traffic coming the other way.

What is new is that car drivers are now adopting the same tactic.


Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - JamesH
I spotted today that part of the A23 in London is allowing motorbikes into its bus lane on a 'trial basis'. I hope more do this soon. If there's a motorbike symbol on the sign it's fine, otherwise they are risking an £80 fine.

Then again, on Sunday that bus lane is a free for all so I happily passed plenty of queueing cars in my car.

James
Two wheeled maniacs - Raymond
"often provoked by car drivers being so close to islands"

Mmmm - as someone used to say - not sure I agree with the term provoked. They could always wait their turn.

It is really the mind set of bikers that I object to. Nobody minds if they overtake and get to the front of a queue. It seems however that they believe it is their absolute right to cut up motorists, undertake and weave between moving traffic at huge speed differentials and cross to 'your' side of the road and attempt to force you over.

Your aim might be not to inconvienience oncoming traffic - not many seem to share that ideal.
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
Raymond

I agree that not all bikers are perfect (come to think of it, neither are all car drivers).

Anyone not applying the criteria of observation and consideration are guilty of bad driving, whatever vehicle you're on/in.
I am always mindful of the fact that if you get it wrong on a bike you get hurt, in a car it's more likely to be only your wallet that gets hurt!
Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Tom Shaw
I think we make the mistake of classifying people as bikers, cyclists, drivers etc when we discuss road behavior. It is instead a question of the attitude of the individual concerned that causes the problem. The biker you see passing a keep left sign on the right would do the same in a car, just that you don't see it so much because the opportunities don't arise so often. Similarly he or she would ride his bike the wrong way down a one way street, sprint across a busy road and push to the front of the bus queue.

Attitudes are part of the individual and not formed by their chosen mode of transport.
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
Tom,
"Attitudes are part of the individual and not formed by their chosen mode of transport."

I think you could turn that statement on its head and say the reverse was true and that the mode of transport determines the behaviour.

I think the majority of us in cars conform to the pattern of behaviour of other car drivers. We speed on motorways, perhaps go through Traffic Lights just a little after they have gone amber etc. By and large however we drive with a degree of consideration for other car users.

Because so many bikes, particularly in London, are ridden in an appalling ill mannered and dangerous manner it seems that many other bikers conform to that standard. They seem to think it their right to act in this manner; I really don't think they would attempt to do so in cars.

Rather like 'respectable secretaries from Croydon' go wild on holiday in Ibiza, so some people act out of character when on two wheels.

Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - volvoman
As a 'reformed' (thankfully not literally!) biker I think that many bikers do these things simply because they can.

Why ride behind a car when you can overtake ?

Why follow a queue of traffic when you can pass it ?

Why keep left when you can very quickly slip around to the right and cut in ?

Why overtake when you can so easily undertake ? After all there's always plenty of room for a bike isn't there ?

I think many bikers don't realise how unsettling and even intimidating their actions can be, especially for drivers who've never ridden bikes. The bikers know what they're about to do and know they can get away with it but do the other drivers in the vicinity ?

I can understand bikers not wanting to hang around in traffic but the often crazy acceleration and speeding I witness almost daily leaves me speechless. In my younger days, many friends of mine had very high powered bikes and some are now dead as a result. They regularly used to race at crazy speeds on local roads - it frightened the pants off me then and still does !


Most are, however, only doing what some car drivers do and what many would do if they could.


IMHO they're all at fault and need their heads tested !
Two wheeled maniacs - Cardew
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments about the antics of many bikers in London - they are a complete pain. Not so sure about a backlash starting though.

Short of spreading diesel on the roads(as someone suggested in an earlier thread) or giving them a nudge - which could have dire consequences for the biker - I cannot see what you can do.

Has anyone any suggestions what we motorists can do to curb their aggressive, intimidating and dangerous riding? - without causing harm that is.
Two wheeled maniacs - Tomo
"Has anyone any suggestions what we motorists can do to curb their aggressive, intimidating and dangerous riding? - without causing harm that is."

Just accept that they can often get on where we can't, stop resenting that, and give them the little space that is all they need?

Tomo
Two wheeled maniacs - Cardew
Tomo,
"Just accept that they can often get on where we can't, stop resenting that, and give them the little space that is all they need?"

Why have you assumed there is resentment about them making better progress, and also not giving them space? I suggest yours is not the most reasoned of replies.

C
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
I believe that I do detect a certain amount of obstructive behaviour by car drivers in London, for example by driving four or five feet out from the kerb when coming up to islands or by speeding up to close a gap as you are going past, but on the whole the majority do allow bikes space to get through.

A little space IS all that is required. Whereas cars may be gridlocked, a bike only needs two feet of space to make progress but some cars insist on pulling up to within a foot of the car in front or tight up alongside another vehicle or island.

If I see someone actually pulling back or over to give me some space I do try to acknowledge it with a wave, but this is not always possible because both hands are otherwise engaged.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Cardew
Brian,
You are 'preaching to the converted'. I can't think why anyone would want to delay a bike, unless it is some form of revenge for biker's behaviour.

I note from your earlier posts you ride in London. You must also witness the widespread aggressive, intimidating and dangerous riding.

C
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
Cardew
Yes, I've been riding in London (one third of my total journet) for nigh on ten years.
I wouldn't say that "aggressive, intimidating and dangerous riding" is widespread, however.
Despatch riders seem to be the most aggressive, but mainly avoid accidents as their skill levels are higher and reactions are quicker.
Commuterslike myself are probably the most vulnerable, particularly if new to it. There is bound to be an influx of new ones when congestion charges come into force and I hope that car drivers will make allowances for their inexperience in the jaws of hell.
IMHO the majority of accidents to bikes come from car drivers not taking account of the fact that although they are stationary other traffic, i.e. bikes, may still be moving. I have seen this lack of observation result in several accidents.

In fact, lack of observation seems to be THE major cause of accidents. Four examples where I have been hit by cars were all due to that single cause, one where I was stationary behind a car and the driver reversed into me to let someone turn right in front of him, one where I was stationary to the front offside of a car at the front of a traffic light queue and the driver simply started off when the lights changed completely ignoring the fact that I was there, one where a car pulled out to overtake whilst I was already overtaking him (plus a near miss from the same reason), one where I stopped in slow moving traffic to let a car turn right in front of me and the car following me rear-ended me (the driver then lectured me to say that you NEVER stop to let other traffic go).
I have also seen two other riders brought off by cars attempting U-turns without checking their mirrors.

Dangerous driving by bikes must include trying to use your acceleration to beat traffic lights as they change. Most of that danger is to themselves, leave it too late and the only person to get hurt will be you.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - RichL
If I see someone actually pulling back or over to give
me some space I do try to acknowledge it with a
wave,


Kudos to you sir, that would make you only the second biker I've met in ten years of driving to do that.

but this is not always possible because both hands are
otherwise engaged.


Although by some strange quirk of fate, if you fail to get out of the way for a biker they always manage to find a free hand to give your their opinion of your personal habits with. ;-)
Two wheeled maniacs - martint123
>>>> If I see someone actually pulling back or over to give
>>>> me some space I do try to acknowledge it with a
>>>> wave,

>>Kudos to you sir, that would make you only the second biker I've >>met in ten years of driving to do that.


>>>> but this is not always possible because both hands are
>>>> otherwise engaged.


Maybe hanging on for grim death with both hands is needed in London, but if you venture 'up North' courtesy is much more noticable. I think I must have given a (nice) wave to a dozen of so motorists who made a little space with no inconvenience to themselves. I'm near DvD's area and life is so much less hassle up here.

We should be ganging up against fuel tax, bad roads rather than each other ;-)

Martin
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Tomo is right. Most bikers I know would agree that frustrated cagers often cut them up, whether out of envy or whether because they've got faster-than-a-Ferrari-away-from-the-lights peformance for Fiesta money, or PMS or they aren't meeting their targets for endowment sales, who knows. Nothing excuses bad riding, but equally, nothing excuses bad driving for the sake of it.

Try two wheels for a while then have another think.
Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
Why not ask the question, how many drivers that complain about motorcyclists have actually ridden one? I find quite a few car drivers are spiteful with each other not to mention motorcycles.
Good manners like the lack of them show better on the road than almost anywhere else. I like a few others always acknowledge courtesy.

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - volvod5_dude
I was stuck in a traffic jam in France last year on the motorway to Calais. French drivers actually opened their car doors to stop the m/cylists from making progress. How sad is that!!
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
Like Growler I find myself agreeing with Tomo.

Have no problem with bikers filtering and often position in traffic queues to give them more space. Also when not in a queue if a biker would have a difficult overtake made easier or possible by driving closer to the kerb, then providing its safe to do so then why not? Acknowledged more than 50% I reckon.

However have to say that (some) bikers in London seem to be a breed apart. OK come from hill-billy country, but sitting or creeping in queues having a stream of bikes blast past on both sides 30 mph quicker than all the other traffic can travel is unnerving.
Two wheeled maniacs - Cardew
Well I am a strident critic of many bikers in London. I also rode bikes for many years and still consider myself a fan and The GRowler's prose in earlier threads has got me thinking about buying a Harley-Davidson. SWMBO is not keen on the idea - but no doubt would find it preferable to his other pleasures!

I wonder how many of those contributing to this thread drive in London. FiF is right saying bikers there are a breed apart, except he underestimates the speed at which they pass you on both sides.

I'm with the pro biker lobby about making room for them where possible. However I have lost count of the times I have had to panic brake for a bike diving into the gap in front of me with his brakes hard on. Of oncoming bikes misjudging their overtaking and forcing me to take avoiding action, or not misjudging their overtaking but deliberately heading straight at you in a bizarre game of chicken.
Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
>>I wonder how many of those contributing to this thread drive in London?

Well, for a good few years I worked for a company that held a servicing contract with Whitbread, which would involve loading up for a weeks work, drive down to London and spend the rest of the week hopping from job to job then back to the guesthouse in Sidcup. Following this I worked for a DIY chains head office in Surrey, once again travelling from up here to down there, driving to various branches and staying over until Friday.

My opinion of the dispatch riders was that they were nuts, but it would be them that came off worse in a collision. However my opinion of a lot of the car drivers was that they were spiteful and when you drive in that kind of enviroment it's very difficult not to follow suit. This may offend some members but remember this I drive a car, ride a motorcycle and a push bike. So like a few other members I see both sides, but from experience I would say motorcyclists are far 'nicer' to each other than car drivers. I said this before and I'll say it again, the Honda Jazz advert is bang on!

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Bikes don't hold up cars (usually) so four wheels should allow room for two wheels in traffic ....... as long as two wheels gets out of the way on the open road twisty bits ;-)

The short term answer for London congestion is two wheels, I'm sure there's a good reason why it's illegal for m/bikes to use bus lanes ...... but I can't think of one. More parking bays for m/bikes, more use of cycles, downside could be increased accident rate.

Travelled 10 miles into Central London on a daily basis throughout the '80s: train, car, bus (aaaarrggggghhhh), m/bike and cycle.

Quickest door to door? Cycle.

Most exhilarating? FZ750 but too much really for London traffic (great away from the lights though .. and no revenue cameras)

M
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
"The short term answer for London congestion is two wheels, I'm sure there's a good reason why it's illegal for m/bikes to use bus lanes ...... but I can't think of one. "

The official line seems to be: Slow two wheels good, quick two wheels bad.

Can't think why.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled polited elderly gentlemen - THe Growler
Hey Cardew!

1) Buy the Hog. Life has no rewind button;

2) What do you mean my "Other pleasures?"

Should I instruct my manservant it be pistols at dawn?
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Do what ? Open twisty roads vs any car ?!!
The only cars I hold back from are WRXs and a few Jap exotica, various high-end Porches/Ferraris and the odd TVR.
Otherwise it's bye-bye time. Oh and anything over 2 litres when it's wet. I'm not stupid ( contrary to appearance ! Clean licenc e and 1 minor accident in 16 years ).
The problem with 90% of bikers is they have machines that clear 100mph in 7s or less but never learnt to corner properly. Witness Milles and Fireblades wobbling around bends at 60 when a Mondeo could put 20mph on that easily.
It's down to lobbies. Black cabs have a strong lobby thus the bus lane exemption. The BMF/MAG should have disbanded years ago and stuck to Saga holidays or gardening.
Quickest door to door is not a cycle. It's not just always a large bike either. I found my Gilera 180cc Runner was unassailable door to door; quick knee pads, boots, jacket, helmet and gloves and I'm away. 0-60 in 6.5s and 90+ top speed but able to follow a push bike in and out of the Trafalgar square maze.
I see the ideal as 1 or 2 seater ultra efficient GDi engined roofed scooters. If the law forces cars go from London altogether then there should be an emission based admittance system for other forms of 2 wheeled transport.
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
BTW one well known fact is that on twist B-roads you need a LOT more acceleration to overtake cleanly and quickly than you think.
Like a V6 Golf won't get past a well driven 2.0 Mondeo but a 330i might and a litre bike won't even notice the 2 smaller cars.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
BTW one well known fact is that on twist B-roads you
need a LOT more acceleration to overtake cleanly and quickly than
you think.
Like a V6 Golf won't get past a well driven 2.0
Mondeo but a 330i might and a litre bike won't even
notice the 2 smaller cars.


Nor will a budget 600....
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Agreed.
Personally I say up to 100mph on dry roads bikes rule and that most certainly includes cut'n'thrust city traffic.
At the end of the day if bikers observed the rule book to the letter then they wouldn't find it worth their while riding bikes.
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
orbit500 wrote:

">The only cars I hold back from are WRXs and a few Jap exotica, various high-end Porches/Ferraris and the odd TVR.
Otherwise it's bye-bye time. <"

Caterhams. Westfields, Sylvas, Tigers etc you can wave goodbye to these as well??
That's impressive.

">Witness Milles and Fireblades wobbling around bends at 60 when a Mondeo could put 20mph on that easily<"
Yup.

">I found my Gilera 180cc Runner was unassailable door to door; quick knee pads, boots, jacket, helmet and gloves and I'm away. 0-60 in 6.5s and 90+ top speed but able to follow a push bike in and out of the Trafalgar square maze.<"

Door to door. By the time you've donned your protective outer-garments and checked out the mirror to ensure the image is just right (15 mins), I'm 5 miles up the road on my trusty Claud Butler, allow another 5 mins for you to start and warm-up the Girlea and I'm nearly there (10 miles remember). I can park the Claud Butler "on-site" in Central London, you - on the other hand - will have to find an empty m/bike bay, not always an easy task.
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
FiF is right saying bikers there are a breed
apart, except he underestimates the speed at which they pass you
on both sides.


Furry nuff Cardew, perhaps I should have phrased it

at least 30 mph quicker....

I'm OK with that amendment if you are.
Two wheeled maniacs - cockle {P}
As another who cut his teeth on two wheels I also try to be aware of bikes and have no wish to impede anyone, just because I'm stuck doesn't mean everyone else has to be.
But I would like to make a heartfelt plea as a van driver, my vehicle has no rear windows for security reasons, basically my company got fed up with all and sundry using our vans as DIY supermarkets. Therefore I have large blind spots which no amount of tweaking the mirrors will compensate for, unfortunately the amount of bikers who seem to take delight in sitting in my blind spots and then blasting by is growing by the day. Now if I, as someone who is on the lookout for bikers is taken unawares then a lot of drivers out there who are not wideawake are never going to see them.

So I would ask the bikers among us, please make yourself visible before passing simply by making sure you can see my mirrors, if you can see my mirrors then I will see you. And then, God willing, none of us will be visiting anyone in hospital.

Stay safe.


Cockle
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
Cockle,
Nice post - but the 'maniacs' who are the subject of this thread are not likely to read it.

As has been said by many contributors, of course we should try to give bikers room and not impede them. The problem is that many bikers now think their tactics are acceptable. Appealing to them is hardly likely to work and they won't stop unless made to.

The question is how do you make them stop.

Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Marcus

To fully understand both "sides" you need to ride and drive; I do, do you?

M
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
Micky,
I rode for many years, but not now and I do appreciate the problems of riding a bike. So please do not tell me that some car drivers are less than considerate towards bikers - that point is conceded.

However it is not a question of 'understanding both sides' as you put it. I don't have a pilots licence but I feel qualified to say a pilot should not be above the drink driving limit when attempting to take off from Stockholm.

Similarly, like the author of this thread, I work in central London and I feel qualified to say that the road behaviour of many bikers is a disgrace and is getting worse. I see it every day.

So I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. Is it that I, and all the other car drivers, don't understand what constitutes dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate riding?

Or one must be a current 'rider and biker' to contribute to the discussion?
Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
The one thing on which I think we can all agree is that careless or dangerous driving should be condemned, and preferably prosecuted for, regardless of the mode of transport of the culprit.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
i just ask the one question : why are you DRIVING in central London ?
The way I see it any muppets daft enough to embroil themselves in 4mph traffic really have set themselves up as obstacles and can be treated as such.
I see a pecking order of priority :
pedestrians
cycles
buses
motorbikes ( reluctantly including scooters )
taxis
cars, inc. minicabs
lorries

I give way to those above me and quite simply don't to those below. Being a biker you feel you've achieved a happy medium between mobility, vulnerability and responsibility.
I'm armoured, insured and liable so not the worst but not the best either.
Biking is the ONLY viable cross city transport for office workers who don;t want to smell like compost heaps.
Two wheeled maniacs - Graham
I also "cut my teeth" on bikes. It was years before I got a car. I can never see any point in delaying the bike by blocking. But I have to say the biker is becoming more and more his worst enemy. It really annoys me when the squeeze by and then expect to use my stopping distance to slipp into. There is no safe room between me and the guy in front beleive me. I had a bike try to do it to me in stationary traffic the other day, just nudging his wheel between me and the guy infront as if to reserve the space as his when the traffic edged forward. This was because the lorry in "his" lane had stopped to turn right.
He got very upset when I ran into him saying that he was in the lead!.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
He got very upset when I ran into him saying that
he was in the lead!.


You drove into him?

I've tried to avoid this thread because it seem blatantly obvious that dangerous driving is a trait of people, not of vehicles and assessing it on a vehicle by vehicle basis is pointless.

However I am going to say that colliding with a stationary vehicle because that vehicle has been rude is inexcusable and should be prosecuted in every case.

Have you informed your insurance company of this incident as you are required to do?

--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Interested to know what your stopping distance is in stationary traffic. I always ask myself just where am I thinking of going when I think about nufging forwards 3 feet into a 2 foot gap.
So ... when you run into him you're essentially taking advantage of the size and strength of your vehicle to insulate you against injury. You're deliberately using your vehicle as a weapon.
Poof goes your impartiality and even temper.
Now if you do that to 10 people then 1 is going to hurt you badly back.
At the end of the day we go and you crawl. Your decision, not ours so don't throw rattles around ! :)
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
At the end of the day we go and you crawl.


This sums it up. Every biker that passes me in the morning is someone who isn't in a car in front of me.

One thing bikers don't do is hold people up. If every biker and cyclist in London drove there would be deadlock.


--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - owen
I agree completely with Toad and orbit. After spending six months of last year commuting into Nottingham every day, i got loads of stick off drivers who didn't like the fact that I could filter to the front of traffic queues. My attitude (which I sometimes had to shout at them!) was if they got a bike, they could do the same - the more people who ride, the less congestion occurs, and the safer motorcycling becomes as a result of motorcycles becoming a more frequent sight on the roads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
You really are missing the point big time.

I don't think car driver on this thread has expressed any resentment about bikers getting ahead - filtering etc. I have never heard anyone express that opinion either. Of course we are pleased to see them get away from us and not block the road.

It is also conceded than some motorists are less than considerate of motor bikes and scooters.

This thread was about the maniacs who ride in London. Are you condoning their behaviour? Or do you believe they are justified in riding the way they do because some drivers are less than considerate toward them?

It is the classic 'Which came first the Chicken or Egg' situation. Are more drivers blocking bikers because of the way some ride or vice versa?

As has been said earlier many bikers behaviour is a disgrace and cannot be defended.
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Marcus wrote:

">I don't have a pilots licence but I feel qualified to say a pilot should not be above the drink driving limit when attempting to take off from Stockholm.<"

What's a drunk pilot got to do with sober bikers/cyclists/drivers?


">Is it that I, and all the other car drivers, don't understand what constitutes dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate riding? <"

No, not all car drivers, only the majority. Evidence? Ride a cycle and see how many cars obey the following: ">When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room<" Answer? Virtually zero.

"> Or one must be a current 'rider and biker' to contribute to the discussion? <"

No, all are welcome to contribute, but how can meaningful comment be made about riding on two wheels in traffic unless it has been experienced? Easy enough, get cycle, use it for short journeys.

Let a biker/cyclist into the small space in front of your car, I do; biker/cyclist will be away again at the earliest opportunity, where's the problem?

M
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
Micky,

"Let a biker/cyclist into the small space in front of your car, I do; biker/cyclist will be away again at the earliest opportunity, where's the problem?"

I will say this s l o w l y and for the last time. There is no problem with doing that, and we should all do that.

Got that?

Have you really got it?

I mean understand what has been said repeatedly?

Now what has all that to do with the maniacs who ride in London?

And in case you have not understood what has been written before, many of us contributing to this thread are ex bikers.

And lastly you did not understand my analogy about the airline pilot. You appear to be saying that only bikers current riding(like yourself) are qualified to recognise dangerous and inconsiderate riding. I do not agree.

Now I have only explained the last point once so I will explain it 2 or 3 more times if you really need me to.

Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Marcus wrote:

"> Micky,
"Let a biker/cyclist into the small space in front of your car, I do; biker/cyclist will be away again at the earliest opportunity, where's the problem?"
I will say this s l o w l y and for the last time. There is no problem with doing that, and we should all do that. <"

The reality is very different, drivers deliberately ram bikes and seem quite proud of the fact (see Graham's posting above)


"> Now what has all that to do with the maniacs who ride in London?"<

And what about the maniacs who drive in London?


I asked: ">What's a drunk pilot got to do with sober bikers/cyclists/drivers?<"

Still waiting for a reply, if it is an analogy then it's a meaningless analogy, because the pilot was apparently drunk.


Marcus wrote "> I will say this s l o w l y and for the last time ........
Got that?
Have you really got it? .......Now I have only explained the last point once so I will explain it 2 or 3 more times if you really need me to. <"

Nothing worthy of a response there, but you might want to try and keep the discussion reasonably civilised.


Marcus wrote: ">You appear to be saying that only bikers current riding(like yourself) are qualified to recognise dangerous and inconsiderate riding. I do not agree.<"

No, I said that the majority car drivers don't understand what constitutes dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate riding; otherwise car drivers would obey the following ">When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room<"


Anyone can comment, but to comment meaningfully about riding (cycle and m/bike) in traffic you need to do it. Then you can see the fuller picture.

M
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
Micky,
I give up - your logic has defeated me.

Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Marcus wrote:
">Micky,
I give up - your logic has defeated me. <"

I accept your more than gracious surrender ......
Two wheeled maniacs - Raymond
Micky,
You wrote
"And what about the maniacs who drive in London?"

Well that was the subject of this thread.

I can see why Marcos has got exasperated with you failing to see the point of the thread.

You cannot seriously contend that "the majority car drivers don't understand what constitutes dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate riding" can you?

Ray
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Ray wrote:

">You cannot seriously contend that "the majority car drivers don't understand what constitutes dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate riding" can you?<"

The majority of car drivers do not use two wheels in heavy traffic, therefore they can only see a part of the picture.

The majority of car drivers drive in a dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate way when they overtake two wheelers (usually cyclists) without "giving them plenty of room." Try cycling in the UK and see how many car drivers overtake without allowing sufficient room. If the majority of car drivers can't understand that their own driving is dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate, then how can they possibly comment meaningfully about bikers/cyclists?

M
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
The majority of car drivers drive in a dangerous, aggressive and
inconsiderate way when they overtake two wheelers (usually cyclists) without "giving
them plenty of room." Try cycling in the UK and see
how many car drivers overtake without allowing sufficient room. If the
majority of car drivers can't understand that their own driving is
dangerous, aggressive and inconsiderate, then how can they possibly comment meaningfully
about bikers/cyclists?
M


I must be in the minority then. :-(

But seriously Micky please don't tar everyone with the same brush. I think most of the car drivers in this thread have been careful not to tar all bikers.

No m/bike but Claud Butler ATB if it helps to clarify.
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
FIF

The thread started with a broad tarry brush:

"> The increase in bikes and particularly scooters in this city is understandable. The way most of them ride is not.
Their aggressive, ill-mannered and downright dangerous riding is infuriating ......<"

With hindsight, it's probably a well written piece of trolling, and should be recognised as such ;-)


"> must be in the minority then. :-( <"

When you are young and impressionable, being one of the herd is very desireable, then you form your own personality at the age of 30 (approx). This is why advertisers target the young (and gullible) with dubious products; as you age so you become more cynical about the herd (majority). I could go on ............. but I won't.

So nothing wrong with being in the minority.

I ride and drive, so should everyone (I've even ridden a horse but far too scarey .......... no "off" button)

M
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
>>(I've even ridden a horse but far too scarey .......... no "off" button)


Exactly, biggest brown trews moment ever for me was on the back of a hunter. And that includes quite a few years of motorsport and related errrm "incidents."
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
>>When passing
motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room


Forgive me for intruding into ths argument, but 'passing motorcyclists'??? Is that actually possible?

Cyclists, sure, I always try and give them plenty of room, and I also look out for motorcyclists in a way that some people probably wouldn't.

However, passing them???????!
HF
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
HF
You'd be surprised how many cars undertake me in London even when I'm slightly over the posted limit.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
Point taken, Brian, never driven in Central London, and nor do I intend to :)
HF
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
Brian,
"You'd be surprised how many cars undertake me in London even when I'm slightly over the posted limit."

At the risk of incurring the wrath of another biker, can you explain the above?

You on a bike? leaving enough room on your left for a car to undertake at a speed above the limit?

Unless I have misunderstood something shouldn't you be over to the left and let the car overtake?

Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
It seems to me that there might be something rather familiar going on here.....
HF
Two wheeled maniacs - Marcus
HF,
Don't understand what you mean.
Marcus
Two wheeled maniacs - HF
No probs, Marcus, I just have a deeply suspicious mind. Ignore me!
HF :)
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
I'm a staunch biker (In case you haven't noticed (sickly grin) and nothing can separate me from my Harley and the pleasure I get from it), BUT I cannot help but think it is only a matter of time before those seatwarming nannies come up with a way of governing speed, limited engine capacity, or even banning outright high-powered sportbikes. I, and a good few responsible bikers I know, believe they now have far more performance than anyone with less than fighter-pilot faculties and reactions can handle. After all if Brussels can force cereal manufacturers to warn you there might be nuts in there, think what they could do to bikes. Nothing, nothing needs 200 mph road capability.

Now it is conventional wisdom that Harley Riders are the villain of the piece (oooh tattooes, lotsa chrome, straight-thru pipes, guys with beer bellies and skull caps, wouldn't let my daughter near one of those). Nothing could be further from the truth. Every Harley-based MC I have known and ridden with has a strict code of conduct, rides are disciplined with an assigned leader and a sweeper at the back in case someone has a problem. They have internal disciplinary procedures for any rider who breaches the club code. Frequently Hog clubs make it their business to be come involved in community projects. In fact one club here has just completed renovating in their own time an orphanage for street children. Our Xmas Toy Run saw 200 bikers donate toys to kids under the auspices of UNICEF and give them backrides round the local mall carpark. The authorities even briefly closed the expressway so that all the bikers could travel in convoy. We also have huge fun, boisterous parties, metal and rock, and there's always lots of girls around, (something about those big old shiny Hogs) but I have never seen anything unpleasant at these unless you count wet T-shirt contests (!).

Further, many older riders give roadcraft tuition, teach correct attire etc voluntarily to up and coming riders, scooter riders etc. Our racing circuit holds regular track days so the boys and girls (oh yes we have a few and can they ride!) can work off their frustrations at the week's traffic, learn how to handle their bikes and have a damn nice day out into the bargain in a supervised and educational environment.

This is not an apologia or a marketing drive for Harleys, bikers or anything else. All of us hate it when we see some biker doing something dumb. We know that this is what sticks in cagers' minds and all of us suffer as a result. Personally I believe responsible authorities need to give more attention to bikers (scooters especially) as valid contributors to road congestion problems and provide better road systems, parking facilities etc to recognise this.
How many cars do you see with just one person in all queued behind each other for example, yet one on a scooter is off and away? Perhaps 2 wheelers deserve some positive discrimination by city planners?

For our part, us bikers need to work ceaselessly to keep our own house in order and to promote biking as a positive and responsible use of the road. Proudly, you will frequently find this attitude prevails nowhere more strongly than it does among those shaven-headed tattoed ruffians in leather vests on 750 lb mountains of rolling chrome.

Mark, I'm HOGging this site (feeble joke, sorry all).
Two wheeled maniacs - Mark (RLBS)
No Growler, you carry on. Good stuff.
Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
I think that the following point is worth noting, to ride a powerful bike you have to be over 21 and earn your full license on a bike over a certain power rating (45 bhp?). However a 17 year old can pass his test in a uno/panda/whatever, then if he/she or his parents can afford the insurance he/she can drive anything. Also bare in mind that if you don't pass your test you have to re-take your CBT every 2 years.

The point that I REALLY object to is the MANY bikers part.

I suppose the main thing is that 2 wrongs don't make a right, being more aggressive towards bikes will only escalate the situation. I'm sure if more courtesy was shown towards bikes then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Well now I've added more fuel to the fire I'll stand well back.

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - RichL
After all if Brussels can force cereal manufacturers to warn you
there might be nuts in there, think what they could do
to bikes.


I can see it now :

"Motorcylcle - may be ridden by nuts."

:-)
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
Marcus
This is me starting off from the offside front at lights, picking up speed fairly rapidly, preparing to do as you say, i.e. pull over to left, when a car undertakes at 40+ .
That's why my nearside mirror is angled down and out slightly.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Two wheeled maniacs - Alfafan {P}
I think the word "snide" fits the bill here. I certainly don't mind some healthy disagreements in the site, but some comments can cause a sharp intake of breath. I don't always agree with Mark's comments but am none the less glad he's here.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Two wheeled maniacs - Alfafan {P}
I think the word "snide" fits the bill here


Toad, this was referring to the comment "some rich guy", not the original post.
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Don\'t worry about it. I still say Harley\'s aint bikes they\'re
fashion statements. Bit like Gucci handbags aren\'t for carrying things in
( my missus knows what I\'m talking about ).


I subscribe to Growlers (deleted) view that it\'s not what you ride it\'s the fact that you ride. However, like you they seem a lot of polishing and noise for not much go!

I do like the look of v twins though! It\'s an unpopular view but I used to like the V twin in the VT500. Rubbish bike but looked great! And a shaftie!

................

--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Shock news! - No Do$h
Had a totally uneventful ride home last night. Nobody pulled out in front of me, nobody cut me up, not a single motorist overtook before immediately turning left, a bus signalled to pull out then saw that I was alongside and waited, even pedestrians stayed out the way.

When I got home I had to bash my elbow on my car's wingmirror just to check I wasn't dreaming.

Perhaps I now have enough lights on my bike and person. My neighbour burst out laughing when they saw me coming down the lane. Thought I was an extra from a Steven Spielberg production.

Ah, the simple joys of pedalling to & fro.... Shame I have to support industrial pollution by purchasing £20 of batteries a month for all the flashing lights... and as for running a charger for the main ones, well best I don't think about the power-station at the other end.

No Dosh ** Quick, talk motoring, Mark's coming! **
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Dearest Toad and with all respect:

Not much go? Have you grabbed a fistful of Twin Cam 88 cu in with Crane cams, a Mikuni HS 42 carb, Kuryakin Hypercharger air filter on a cut down low-rider Softail with open Vance & Hince Sureshot drag pipes lately?

You'd better have a Corbin Gunfighter Close-Up seat with a back stop or mighty long legs or else you'll be hanging on by your hands and wondering where your feet went.

There'll be a few bemused Beemer drivers wondering what just passed them and hey! the girls will be looking at you not them!
(That's the clincher).

Yee haw!!




Two wheeled maniacs - orbit500
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Dearest Toad and with all respect:
Not much go? Have you grabbed a fistful of Twin Cam
88 cu in with Crane cams, a Mikuni HS 42 carb,
Kuryakin Hypercharger air filter on a cut down low-rider Softail with
open Vance & Hince Sureshot drag pipes lately?


Seriously Growler. Mods? If you wanted a bike with more performance why not just buy a 4 stroke 250 commuter!!! ;-)
You'd better have a Corbin Gunfighter Close-Up seat with a back
stop or mighty long legs or else you'll be hanging on
by your hands and wondering where your feet went.
There'll be a few bemused Beemer drivers wondering what just passed
them and hey! the girls will be looking at you not
them!
(That's the clincher).


All true! I don't doubt that even a Harley will blow any car away. (Despite that stupid 'easy rider' car advert)

I once did 450 kilometers on mountain roads on a Honda 650 Shadow (IIRC???) (Near as damn it a Harley) It was good fun. Even did a few k's sans helmet. Cracking fun.

Still prefer a conventional bike!


--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
I repeat, biking is about biking and the fun and convenience it generates. Increasingly wherever you live it represents a viable, lo-cost and environmentally sensible alternative to public transport. I have no doubt authorities everywhere will ultmately recognise this, but it is important bikers present themselves as responsible road users. I believe this is the point of this thread and I support it 100%.

It must and really must be supported by more rigorous rider training and licence requirments as bikes get quicker and roads get more congested.

For me it is an instant social life, a source of therapy if I can say that, on a cool tropical morning when we ride 5000 ft up into the mountains for breakfast overlooking Lake Taal (a volcano in the middle of a pure azure lake, beat that!) I don't doubt you can have just as much fun belting round Wales, doesn't matter. What you ride is irrelevant. Good natured brand rivalry, sure. Brand snobbery, what's the point? I could buy 2 Yamasukis for the price of one Harley, but they'd be out of date anyway next year because the new ones are painted different and go 3 mph faster. 3 mph I can't use anyway on today's roads. My ole V-Twin I can fix myself, not much to go wrong anyway and never looks out of date because it looked out of date when it came out of ole Willy D's factory anyways. (Sidebar: but don't forget the V-Rod! That should get a few rapid responses!)

I try and the bikers I know try, to strike a balance of presenting a responsible image to the authorities along with discipline in our own ranks while having good fun as well. The discipline of doing this is a rigorous mental and physical activity both on the road and off it. It is quite demanding actually and when I come down off a good ride I am both relaxed and quite drained. All my faculties have been engaged and unlike driving a car I feel energized and like I've just been to the mental equivalent of the gym.

To return to the original point of the thread: I don't care what marque anyone rides. No biker should. If you feel more comfortable on your Yamazuki than on my big old Hog that is entirely your privilege and I will respect that and we can exchange all the banter we want over a pint or three (unless we're riding). Nothing, nothing excuses lunatic riding. Those who indulge in it should think about what they are doing for our cause. They will be the first to complain if someone bans/restricts those plastic fantastics they love to misbehave on. And that, my good friend, messes up mine and Toad's and whoever else's responsible enjoyment of our passion.

I won't respond to comments about HD fashion statements except to say just look at those multicolored Dianese suits and matching bikes from the Land of The Falling Yen with custom helmets...cast the first stone etc....(evil grin)

You cagers well I can see how frustrating it must be for you. A bad day on the M25, sales targets et al, late home, the Bitter Half whinging at you on the cellphone. Don't blame me cos I'm quicker. As someone said it could be me in a car in front holding you up but it isn't. Be thankful.

So let the two wheels guy slither through the gaps. Everybody wins that way, you too mr cager if you think about it. If they ride aggessively or dangerously, whatever marque, they should be pulled over and face the consequences.

Because their stupidity messes up my riding experience, and they don't have the right to do that.

Enjoying this thread. Thanks all.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Not much to disagree with there!

I've just realised I can stand in the middle.

I can look down on the chromed iron horses *and* the dianese clad unscuffed knee slider brigade from my moral high ground of black leathers, white helmet and an unfaired all rounder!

We've already split into three factions and it's only jsut lunch!!

--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
"the dianese clad unscuffed knee slider brigade"

Your economy of phrase says it all!


Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
Well said G.

following is not related to growlers post but generally to the thread.

Noted the preponderance of "I'm a proper motorist cos I'm a biker" being implied very strongly in some views here but not all admittedly.

Also noting the opinion that one should try a bike to understand the situation with idiot car drivers. furry nuff, don't agree but its a valid opinion.

What does the team think about the opinion that the bikers who behave in outrageous and dangerous ways in traffic should try driving cars vans etc to see such behaviour from another aspect. Sauce for goose and gander and all that.

For crissakes we are all just trying to get from A to B in whatever mode we can afford / prefer / have been provided by work / is most convenient or whatever. Your choice is not my choice, and that ios what life is about.

Let us just work together purrr lease and stop trying to justify lousy behaviour by more of the same. Otherwise we all end up in the gutter, in more ways than one!
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Noted the preponderance of "I'm a proper motorist cos I'm a
biker" being implied very strongly in some views here but not
all admittedly.


I certainly feel that with training in the handling of two vehicle types I have an additional pespective on the road. A lorry driver would have an extra perspective too as would a tractor driver and a Traffic Policman.

The more varied the experience the better.

Car + Bike + Lorry/PSV would be a good set of things for all to try before going on the road.

--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
no disgreement with that at all Toad. a certain plod driving school had on its fleet HGV artic for use during courses. The idea being that the result was a better awareness of the problems facing drivers of such vehicles. The thing I recall is just how much noise the flaming thing made, not just engine but general rattling etc, and how lousy the rear visibility is, and as for roundabouts at rush hour!!!!!
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
a certain plod driving
school had on its fleet HGV artic for use during courses.
The idea being that the result was a better awareness of
the problems facing drivers of such vehicles.


In Uni holidays I worked on delivery lorries. [1] I will never pull out in front of a lorry again. If you slow them down it takes an age to get back up to speed.

One thing that biking teaches you more than a 4 wheeled vehicle ever could is causes of traffic. By goign to the fornt of every queue you understand what causes tail backs more than any other road user.

[1] This was before I became an amphibian arisocrat! ;-)
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
If you
slow them down it takes an age to get back up
to speed.


This was a old Leyland with a full size box on the back, the aerodynamics ensured you knew all about taking an age to get to speed, any speed, 0>56 = 1 week

likewise I try and avoid causing lorries (indeed anyone) haveing to alter speed due to my actions. Thats why the comment somewhere above where some joker had a pecking order and never gives way to nayone lower than him/her is so damn depressing.

FYI I've got a copy of the thread pre edit ;-)
Two wheeled maniacs - Flat in Fifth
[1] This was before I became an amphibian aristocrat! ;-)
--


Obviously I just have to read TWITW again, I always thought Mr Toad was not the gentry but new money. ;-)
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
>> [1] This was before I became an amphibian aristocrat!
;-)
>> --
Obviously I just have to read TWITW again, I always thought
Mr Toad was not the gentry but new money. ;-)


;-)

Thanks FiF. Just gobbed coffee over my monitor!!!
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
FIF wrote:

">What does the team think about the opinion that the bikers who behave in outrageous and dangerous ways in traffic should try driving cars vans etc to see such behaviour from another aspect. Sauce for goose and gander and all that.<"

Anyone who drives should ride, and vica versa.

Two wheeled maniacs - No Do$h
I repeat, biking is about biking and the fun and convenience
it generates. Increasingly wherever you live it represents a viable, lo-cost
and environmentally sensible alternative to public transport.


Even more so if you pedal......

I'll get my coat.

No Dosh *Lycra has a practical purpose, I just don't know what it is yet*
Two wheeled maniacs - Mark (RLBS)
To several of you,

If you don\'t like the moderation, then leave. I don\'t have time for all the silly games.

It is what it is because of how it is moderated. You do not decide what is acceptable or not, I do. Your thoughts on moderation are of no interest or relevance.

Neither is this the place to debate the moderation, as has been said before - e-mail me, Martyn or HJ. If you want to know the Moderation principles, then read the small print.

Toad - if you don\'t like it, e-mail Martyn or HJ. I haven\'t got time for another of your screes about how life is so mean and the moderation is unfair.

Neither do I have time to deal with personal comments about me.

I am now going to start deleting items out of this thread I don\'t like. Some good stuff is likely to be lost.

Get over it.

Mark.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Orbit:
> Well, you've convinced me. I'm off.

Best of luck.

If you're lookin gfor a new 'home' with robust technical chat and a biking slant I'd recomend uk.rec.motorcycles newsgroup.


--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - No Do$h
What is so frustrating is that Orbit has placed some well informed posts, although what we have seen here has been less than enlightening.

BTW, (and back on topic) what view do you all have cyclists as opposed to those on motorbikes? Cyclists rarely have the opportunity to move to the offside to pass stationary traffic so have to pick their way through on the n/s a lot of the time.

I'd like to understand the desire to nudge cars over the left when a cyclist is spotted in the wing-mirror. I know I don't do that when I drive, but then that's because I understand how intimidating it can be when on a pushbike.

Toad made a valid point about HGVs as well. His comment about the time it takes to recover lost speed has hit home and I shall be taking that into account in future, whether on my bike or in my car.

Perhaps a thread on specific problems particular modes of transport encounter might enlighten us all and add to our driving skill? I would certainly benefit from a greater understanding of the challenges faced by anyone driving an LGV for a living and am sure that many motorists would benefit from the view from two wheels, etc.

No Dosh *You can tell when I'm being serious, I drop the daft tagline*
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
What is so frustrating is that Orbit has placed some well
informed posts, although what we have seen here has been less
than enlightening.


Yeah and as Mark implies the post that led to this downward spiral was completely innocent and 100 per cent on topic. It did deteriorate though and I'm glad I got a copy of his parting post which included skillful and imaginative use of the numeric characters! ;-)
Perhaps a thread on specific problems particular modes of transport encounter
might enlighten us all and add to our driving skill?


Good idea. We seem to have a broad range of experience here. Should be valubule and a good starting point for debate.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Mark (RLBS)
as Mark implies the post that led to this downward spiral was completely innocent


You may have read that, I did not say that nor do I think it.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Yeah and as Mark implies the post that led to this
downward spiral was completely innocent and 100 per cent on topic.


Ok, I wihdraw the first sentence above and change it to:

"The post that led to this downward spiral was completely innocent and 100 per cent on topic. It was not personal abuse, it was bang on topic and it contained specific and interesting information. There were no complaints about it and it had led to further interesting and on topic discussion."

--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
Growler
What you say is good and logical, the only point I would disagree with (slightly) is:
"It must and really must be supported by more rigorous rider training and licence requirments as bikes get quicker and roads get more congested."

Once upon a time, when we were young, bike training and licence requirements were less rigid. As a result, a far higher proportion of youngsters than nowdays started off on a moped, graduated to a m/cycle or scooter and then to a car. That gave them a progressive introduction to roadcraft and an appreciation of road surfaces, weather conditions and how things looked on/in another type of vehicle.
Nowdays only a minority take the powered two-wheeler first, car second route, partially because there are more friends and relatives with cars to bridge the gap before getting a car licence yourself, but also because the motorcycle licensing rules have become so much more complex and restrictive.

So they go straight from a driving school car at 30 mph round town, to dad's BMW on NSL roads or a Golf GTI in town or on the local bypass. And they haven't got the depth of experience to handle it.

I rest my case.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
As I predicted there's one sure way to get over 100 posts on a topic!

And it's worked a treat!
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Harleys, great noise* and ................... er ..............I'm sure there must be another good reason to own one.


* But not on my road at 2.00am, only I'm allowed to make noise on my road at 2.00am ;-)
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
HF wrote:

">Forgive me for intruding into ths argument, but 'passing motorcyclists'??? Is that actually possible?<"

Yes, low powered bikes/mopeds/scooters.
Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
>>Yes, low powered bikes/mopeds/scooters.

I can't agree with that, I've had numerous drivers blast past me using the chevrons, etc. because I was taking it easy due to road conditions (wet/frosty), just because they're in a strong tin box they forget the limitations of their tyres in such conditions.

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
Yes, low powered bikes/mopeds/scooters.

>>
I read yesterday that the speed limiters on mopeds are to be set to 27 mph (45 kph) in future rather than the current 30 mph.

What a crazy move!

It means that they will be being overtaken by everybody, even our lycra-clad cyclist friends. A disaster waiting to happen, e.g. on narrow 30 mph roads and anything with a 40, 50, 60 or 70 limit.

I used to have one limited to 30 and being constantly cut up by overtaking vehicles scared me sh**tl*ss, even with thousands of miles of bike experience under my belt.
Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
>> Yes, low powered bikes/mopeds/scooters.
>>
I read yesterday that the speed limiters on mopeds are to
be set to 27 mph (45 kph) in future rather than
the current 30 mph.
What a crazy move!


Yeah. Mopeds should be allowed 56mph. At least they wouldn't get overtaken by lorries on single carriageway. Whoever came up with 30mph must have been mad.

It's the speed differential that causes danger. Reducing the differential with the furnature to 30 means increasing th edifferential with traffic to 40-50. The lives of these kids are in the hands of myopic old people and the 1 in 7 that can't even see well enough not to crash.

Insane.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
BTW I think the 45 kph came from the Continent as a harmonising measure.
IIRC though, over there mopeds can use cycle tracks.

Maybe in the UK they should be allowed on cycle tracks and in bus lanes.

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
In holland they can.

Yes, in the UK they should be allowed off the road.

Wouldn't have been much use for me. I used to brave fast single carriageway A roads. It was a nightmare.

I wouldn't risk it now. At 56 miles per hour I could have hidden in front or behind a lorry.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Dwight Van Driver
Toad (Biker extrodinaire).

Whatever happened to motor cycles and sidecars? I know they still race them but are they still used privately?. Cannot recollect seeing one for yonks.

DVD
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Toad (Biker extrodinaire).
Whatever happened to motor cycles and sidecars? I know they still
race them but are they still used privately?. Cannot recollect seeing
one for yonks.


Been a sea change in biking DVD.

There was a time when bikes were cheap transport for the masses.

Under those circumstances a side car made sense to slot the nippers into.

Now in the brave new world bikes are more expensive than cars and have only two purposes: Traffic avoidance and fun.

Neither is really suited to sidecar attachment!

Course the Robin is technically an outfit. As is the morgan. There's a bright red one a few mile away from me. Air cooled. Sweet.

I was definately born 40 years too late.



--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
BTW DVD, ever swung your leg over a Norton Interpol II?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - Dwight Van Driver
No Toad.

In my day it was Triumph twins with the radio set into the tank. If you braked hard and slid foreward you sent RT messages in a high pitched voice.

Then going the rounds of the various Departments when I came back to Traffic they would not, much to my dismay because of my age, authorise me to ride motor cycles of the fleet - BMW 1000. But being a supervisor I used to meet up on the A.1 with the P.C. and swop vehicles to have a 'burn up' for you never lose the love do you? But whereas I always thought the Triumph was a real bike, the more modern BMW it was like sitting on a motorised arm chair, not the same attraction.

I still have the yearning....

DVD
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
In my day it was Triumph twins


Can't picture 'em. Based on the Bonnie?
But being a supervisor I used to
meet up on the A.1 with the P.C. and swop vehicles
to have a 'burn up' for you never lose the love
do you?


And this was paid work...
But whereas I always thought the Triumph was
a real bike, the more modern BMW it was like sitting
on a motorised arm chair, not the same attraction.


Agree. Must be the same with the pan europeans. All plastic and linked brakes. The rozzers that ride them still seem to handle them like stripped down track bikes.
I still have the yearning....


Get yourself a bandit! You'll never regret it. And these days you can just leave in in the garage when it rains.

--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - BrianW
"I used to brave fast single carriageway A roads. It was a nightmare."

When I sold mine I refused to sell it to someone who was intending using it on a particular 60 NSL road. They wouldn't have lasted a week and I didn't want that on my concience.
Sold it to someone else who only wanted it to get to and from the station!

Brian
Still learning (I hope)
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
BrianW: I defer to your rather better informed and expressed interpretation of the issue I was trying to highlight. I think we're all on the same side here. The issue as I see it is how to reconcile horrendously fast road machines with current standards of roadcraft training with quite frankly the average rider's physical and mental ability to deal with this level of performance from modern machines against a background of
the individual himself. Is he responsible and should he be let out on this monster?? I don't know. How can you measure that? Should he be in charge of such a machine? Many of the contributors to this thread express their concern at irresponsible behavior on 2 wheels. Bikers have to get with the program, accept this and deal with those among their number, by whatever means, who can't or won't understand that dangerous riding when repeated often enough will bring down the attention of the authorities on the activity itself. When that happens everyone, I'm talking to you multicolored Dainese riceboys and us old fat-gutted Hog bro's, that's everyone, will suffer.

Mickey: Orbit500 et al: the Harley jokes don't wash any more. Go to the US and try them there, but have good body armor. I don't critique your personal choice of ride except from the objective stand point of its performance and whether or not it's the kind of bike I'd buy. Pay me the same respect please. Ride safe, keep the shiny side up and enjoy. Someone's waiting for you at home.

The thread: two wheeled maniacs. See my other post under HJ's M25 thread. Driver, rider, no matter. Be responsible please. We had a horrible 2 fatality incident here last weekend because somebody let their gonads over-ride their brain on a Ducati.

...Growler out.




Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Growler wrote: "the Harley jokes don't wash any more."

You are going to regret showing this chink in your armour!

It reminds me of th elad on a bus in fron tof me and a two mates who told his gorup of mates that he'd punch anyone who messed up his bryl creamed hair.

Needless to say all three of us were on him in a second.... ;-)

In the same spirit I can see a few harley jibes coming your way for a while! ;-)
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Doesn't bother me, love the cut and thrust of healthy debate. I just hope you're having as much fun as I do when I fire up that beast of mine with Miss Philippines on the back!

Any biker here gets to Manila, the drinks are on us.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Would Mickey and Orbit500 like to tell us what they ride? Interested. Thanks
Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Growly wrote:

">Would Mickey and Orbit500 like to tell us what they ride? Interested. Thanks<"

Mostly doing it dirtily in the dirt these days, far too many maniac car drivers.

Elderly KTM 495.

Even more elderly DT 175 for on-road to get to the off-road.

Light, responsive, agile ......... the bikes, not me.

Of course, I aspire to a Harley, I working on the side profile and "mature" age comes to us all.

M
Two wheeled maniacs - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Any biker here gets to Manila, the drinks are on us.


Ok, I'll have a martini you can shake it on that lumpy vibrating v twin of yours!!! ;-)

I'm planning a europe trip in the spring. Is manila anywhere near Calais??? ;-)
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Toad, get with 2003, the Twin Cam 88 doesn't vibrate! Not much anyway. You see, with you guys it's all Harley folklore, you never bother with facts. Just your own prejudiced perceptions (grin). When you get to Calais turn left towards India and keep going till you get to Singapore. At that point you will need a ship or a plane to get to Manila, which is situated on one of our 7,107 islands. Don't worry a good ship's captain will know the way. When you are a few hundred meters off shore call me on my cellphone and I'll have Growlette or one of my girls (or two of my girls if you prefer) get you thru Customs and Immigration and pick you up in my F-150 with a few cold ones.

If yuo can make it around April 24th, this is the start of Philippine Bike Week

www.bikeweekphilippines.com/

I could use some help organising the Wet T-Shirt contest.

You will have the time of your life and will question your hitherto ingrained and unchallenged value system for ever after.
Which means you will be so miserable when you get back to UK that you will have to sell your house and return at once, like the 150,000 or so other retirees here. What's your riding preference? I understand if a Hog is a bit of a handful for you, no worries. Got a nice line in KYMCO scooters or I can offer you a Yamaha Virago 400. Our ladies like these because they look like a proper cruiser buy are ligh to handle. One our guys has a 1976 automatic CB750 (don't see a lot of them). Don't worry, out here it ain't what you ride, it's the fact you do.

I think this thread is pretty close to the forum's record for posts and I do believe that may be partly down to me. Indeed Growlette has just appeared wearing her "You've Been A Naughty Boy, Go And Wait In My Room" T-shirt.

Ride safe, keep the shiny side up, whatever youy ride. We lost two of our bro's last week, don't let the next be you.

....later. Growler.



Two wheeled maniacs - Shigg
They say a large percentage of Harleys are still on the road, my Hondas always made it home! LOL

Just kidding! Honest! It's just jealousy that I'm too small, weak and poor to have one.

I like the cruiser look and the style of riding, gives you time to relax and take in the scenery. Car drivers tend to be more courteous as well!

Steve.
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Steve:

HD is just one of those things - I can visit any country I know, find out the local HD MC and I've got an instant social scene, done it many times. Cruisers suit me and a whole lot of people I know, I recognise they aren't everyone's cup of tea. I have owned plenty of very competent Japanese m/c's, no complaints at all, just that they don't float my boat the same way that Milwaukee monster does. It's a personal thing. The rivalry and the banter, well, that's all good natured and adds to life's rich tapestry. It brings people together.

It's interesting that (I stand to be corrected on the exact math) that HD's share price went up some 16% in 2001 (this is the Enron year don't forget, when the Dow tanked). The rest of my portfolio is distinctly sick.

I do dislike the aggressive HD marketing (my best friend just sold out of his HD dealership in US because of this) I think it's out of line with the concept of the bike...and it presenting HD as though it were some kind of fashion accessory. this has contributed to the "fashion statement" accusation and I can see why. But get with a bunch of Hog riders you'll see that really isn't the deal, you're welcome as a rider and that's it.

Two-wheeled maniacs, this is the thread.

In my own time I teach youngsters to ride right and wear good gear. The objective is to give them not just the riding skills but the confidence in themselves that knowing they are a good rider brings. Anyone who has trained anyone to do something knows the reward of watching that someone grow in both skill and self-esteem. I get as mad as any car driver when I see some loonie on a bike which is too fast for his level of personal maturity violate all those principles. Effectively he is destroying what I and my friends work hard to preserve: responsibility motorcycle use on the highway with fun and safety for all. I just hope that the antics of a few will not bring down the wrath of the authorities on all the rest of us. Sadly I fear it may in a regulation-rich environment like EU.

Take care out there.



Two wheeled maniacs - Micky
Growler wrote:

">Mickey: Orbit500 et al: the Harley jokes don't wash any more.<"

Harleys and washing? Got to be a link there.
By definition, Harley owners must have a good sense of humour.


">Go to the US and try them there, but have good body armour.<"

No problems discussing the merits of HDs (or otherwise) the last time I visited our colonial friends in "Southern" Canada. Anyway, why should I travel over the pond to discuss HDs when I've got you to talk to Growly?

M
Two wheeled maniacs - THe Growler
Micky Toad et al:

Yes I know, pristine gleaming bikes at the expense of a certain amount of, er, personal hygiene on the part of their owners may well be conventional wisdom. Those old leather chaps (both sorts!) can get a bit ripe after a bit of saddle time.

Not here at least, our partners are fastidious in this regard, and I quote from the Growlette Files pretty much verbatim: Babes you wanna look like an outlaw and dress like one and be a kid all over again I guess I have to deal with it. But take a shower first, OK?

I love her almost as much as my bike.

...later


 

Value my car