Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - nick62

Discuss

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20122355

Edited by nick62 on 29/10/2012 at 14:22

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

...thus providing a fiscal incentive for cars to move from safe, efficient motorways onto the old trunk roads that pass through towns and villages. Who dreams up these stupid ideas??

They shot themselves in the foot by having a steeply graduated tax band system that allowed cycle tuned vehicles to qualify for derisory levels of VED and now they don't like the inevitable loss of revenue.

You can tinker with VED all you like-it is always going to be an arbitrary and unfair tax. The only sensible method is to scrap VED entirely and raise fuel duty by a sufficient level to make the move revenue neutral.

No more cycle tuning, no pseudo fuel economy gains. You pay for what you use. Simples.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Ethan Edwards

Headline ...Cheaper VED for non motorway users...

As I pay zero VED on my Yaris HSD at present please clarify how this is any cheaper?

Caution... BBC spin at work. I reckon the Beeb only take time off their kiddy fiddling to get their daily instructions from the Liebour party headquarters.

Anyway this is a daft idea that Mr 'Cast Iron guarantee' will U-turn in about twenty minutes.

He'll just double the VED rates instead. More tax and printing funny money...easier than cutting the Gubbermint waste isn't it.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 29/10/2012 at 14:54

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - RT

As much as we dislike the level it's set at, the fuel duty is the perfect tax for this situation - those who drive more miles pay more, those who drive the most poluting cars pay more.

Just abolish VED Mr Osborne and you have the perfect taxation system for motorists !!

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bobbin Threadbare

I can't see how they can possibly police this. It would cost so much to put cameras everywhere and put extra motorway rozzers on duty that it completely negates the extra revenue they're hoping to generate.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

It's a non starter. I can only assume that it is a diversionary tactic designed to deflect attention away from some other bad news.

otoh, never underestimate stupidity. Rather like forcing energy companies to put everyone on the cheapest tariff. Silly populist platitude.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bromptonaut

I suspect the cameras are already there.

ANPR has spread everywhere with no real public debate or consent to the surveillance involved.

Think how quickly the suspect's car's movements were noted in the Megan Stammers case.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

I don't doubt that the infrastructuture is already there. I think this is one of those lay arguments that the government intend to lose. It's probably a softening-up exercise for something else. Common political tactic.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - thunderbird

The extra duty on fuel or pay as you drive should suit me perfectly, 3 cars in the house, 20,000 miles a year total, should save a fortune but there are problems.

One of our cars is £30 a year tax, bet the extra fuel duty over £7,000 miles would cost more than that.

What happens when the chancellor comes up with a good idea in a few years time to raise some cash, lets call it the Road Fund Licence, we would be paying twice in no time at all.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - RickyBoy

Perhaps they'll take it a stage further introduce tiered pricing bands? Expect to pay top dollar for rush-hour travel at either end of the day, make it cheaper from say 10:00 'til 15:00, dirt cheap after 20:00 and 'nowt' from 22:00 'til 05:00!

I don't mind nipping out to the 24-hr supermarket for a pint of milk at 23:45, honest I don't.

Bunch of Clattenberg's the lot of 'em...

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - primeradriver

As I pay zero VED on my Yaris HSD at present please clarify how this is any cheaper?

He'll just double the VED rates instead.

If you pay zero VED at present please clarify how doubling it would be any more expensive?

Caution... Ethan Edwards hyperbole at work.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - barney100

I think the only fair method is scrap rtoad tax and raise the money with fuel duty, you then pay for what you have used. however duty is excessive now.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - gordonbennet

Like the good little consumers they should be people bought into fuel efficient low VED car as encouraged by politicians in the pursuit of green policies.

Well done people, VED and fuel tax revenues are down cos you did as you were told, so an alternative must be found to get your contributions back to former levels, hence waffle about extra taxes, when the real agenda is road pricing.

I've been saying this for years, they won't be happy till every vehicle movement is monitored and billed, along with all the accrued speeding fines that will automatically tot up on the database, anti terrorism just one of the excuses.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - jamie745

Motorways, A roads and bridges were built to stop people clogging up towns and cities and crashing many timesi n the process. Now they want to make a few quid they want to reverse all of that?

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

It won't happen. It's scare tactic so that the public will be grateful when government backs down and implements the less draconian policy it intended to implement in the first place.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - jamie745

I just think it's about time they started targeting somebody else with their pocket-fleecing machine. The motorist gives them £50billion direct and probably helps generate most of the rest of what they get as it is. Isn't it time to start taxing bicycles, oldpersonmobiles, skateboards etc? Maybe we should scrap the fuel duty break the buses get while we're at it. Start kicking somebody else.

One day Government will work out we haven't got a massive budget deficit because we never taxed people enough.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Ravenger

The problem is that when electric cars are more common how can they tax the fuel on them? Especially when you can just plug them into the household mains.

It's one of the reasons government is so keen on road pricing, as it doesn't matter what fuel a vehicle runs on if you're using cameras & GPS to track it. (Never mind the complexity of such a system and the huge potential for errors).

Call me paranoid, but I get the feeling that the government is so keen on smart meters because then they could automatically tax electricity used to charge electric cars at a higher rate. All it takes is a requirement for the meter to 'talk' to the car, and prevent charging if there's no authorised connection via a smart meter.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

The problem is that when electric cars are more common how can they tax the fuel on them?

An excellent point. Electric cars should be paying taxes on electricity on the same pro rata basis as road fuels. This was a foreseeable problem that would have been remedied if electric cars were mandated to have meters installed at their charging points.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Sulphur Man

This evening, at 1830, the M25 was basically one continuous ant-clockwise queue from Jct 10, A3, to Jct 5, Sevenoaks. Sheer weight of traffic, no incidents.

How would this road taxation system improve that situation, and similar situations on major trunkways across the country? It's not unreasonable to assume that those choosing to pay extra to use main trunkroads and motorways will do so to lessen journey times.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - jamie745

Motorways were built in the first place to lessen journey times. We have paid for them a bazillion times over. If they're no longer working it's because the Government have wasted too much of our money and have failed to build more motorways or widen the A-roads we currently have.

We should stop giving the Government anymore of our money until they fix the problem. Performance related pay.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - RT

Too much affluence has caused the congestion.

Yesterday I saw the figures for a "Living Wage" which are above the Minimum Wage level - they're also nearly double the State Pension which it's perfectly possible to live on (and buy new cars) - the problem is that people expect so much these days.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - thunderbird

Yesterday I saw the figures for a "Living Wage" which are above the Minimum Wage level - they're also nearly double the State Pension which it's perfectly possible to live on (and buy new cars) - the problem is that people expect so much these days.

Some pensioners not only have the State Pension, they also have works pensions and savings, that is how they can afford new cars, my parents fall into this group. People on the minimum wage (or living wage) are generally young people and if they have families, morgages etc I hate to think how they get by, new cars would not be on their agenda.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - nick62

...............................they're also nearly double the State Pension which it's perfectly possible to live on (and buy new cars) - the problem is that people expect so much these days.

Another one from planet Zog!

I remember being a newly married twenty something with a (new) mortgage, etc. in the so called "good times" back in the mid 1980's, and new cars were defnitely NOT on the agenda then either. I dread to think how this same age group get on today?

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bobbin Threadbare

I remember being a newly married twenty something with a (new) mortgage, etc. in the so called "good times" back in the mid 1980's, and new cars were defnitely NOT on the agenda then either. I dread to think how this same age group get on today?

We don't buy new cars, that's for sure!

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bromptonaut

Yesterday I saw the figures for a "Living Wage" which are above the Minimum Wage level - they're also nearly double the State Pension which it's perfectly possible to live on (and buy new cars) - the problem is that people expect so much these days.

The basic state pension is £102.15. Pension credit tops that up up to £137 for a singles or £209.50 for couples with no other income. New cars etc might be possible if you're a couple who've both paid contributions and you've paid off your housing costs and have savings/other income.

The Living Wage assumes payment of rent or mortgage, travel to work costs etc.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

Too much affluence has caused the congestion.

Will you be volunteering to be less affluent and be forced off the road for the sake of the common good?

Congestion is often a good sign. It is a sign of overcrowding which is largely voluntary. People always blame immigrants for crowding but there is nothing to stop people moving from the popular areas to unpopular areas. There are towns in the North East in particular that are half empty and crying out for more people.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Falkirk Bairn

Tax Raising & 2 stage RFL's

Tax raised should be proportional to use & easy to collect

Extra ax collection through fuel duty is the answer instead of a 2 x speed RFL. Fuel duty is easy to collect from a handful of large Oil Cos and hard to avoid the tax -(Unlike smuggled Cigarettes that are 25% of the market)

However I would keep the RFL at a nominal sum - £20 / year for example. the penalties for not having RFL being £100/£200 fine.

The RFL involves a check for Registration Details ie Owner Address.
It checks for MoT (which proves it was roadworthy on 1 day at least - all the lights worked and it had roadworthy tyres (thinking about Clocks going back and the soon slippy roads)

It checks Insurance - I know there are on-line systems but the local less do wells (the few who or who claim + work) leave home early / under darkness etc, use back roads are not caught by motorway cameras -local bobbies have the video cars out but only on nicer sunny days on broad roads with a lay-by - they do not like getting wet!)

£20 - £2/£3 to the PostOffice for the checks, £2/£3 to pay DVLA costs and say £15 for the Govt to squander on MP's expenses.

Seriously, TAXES need to be proportional to use, easy/cheap to collect and little scope for evasion - in 2 words - Fuel Duty

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - gordonbennet
'' there is nothing to stop people moving from the popular areas to unpopular areas.''


Didn't the Nazis come up with a similar scheme?
Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

Yay! An example of Godwin's law

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

The point I am making is that as much as people dislike the side effects of living in densely populated areas, they do so of their own volition.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bromptonaut

The point I am making is that as much as people dislike the side effects of living in densely populated areas, they do so of their own volition.

It's a bit more complex than that isn't it.

I'd love to move to the Outer Hebrides. Unfortunately my job's in London, my kid's are settled at school near home and Uni in England. My surviving rellies are in Leicester.

Not wholly my own volition.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - unthrottled

Not wholly my own volition.

It is. It's just that you've decided that the benefits of the job and area outweigh the benefits of the tranquility of the hebrides.

It's not a lecture! The realisation that more people want to move to my area than leave it makes congestion seem a bit less intolerable. If life is bad in the areas people want to live in, imagine how bad it is the places that people don't!

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bromptonaut

This evening, at 1830, the M25 was basically one continuous ant-clockwise queue from Jct 10, A3, to Jct 5, Sevenoaks. Sheer weight of traffic, no incidents.

How would this road taxation system improve that situation, and similar situations on major trunkways across the country?

The M25 is a classic example of the consequence of building such roads. Before the orbital motorway opened one would never consider living in Watford and taking a job in Reading.

Add in those who use it for one or two junction local trps and you've got today's car park.

I doubt there's mucg prospect of detering long distance commuting. The cost/stress of regualr house moves far exceed any feasible tax/charge.

User charging might deter local use but at what cost to surrounding area?

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - thunderbird

Sometimes you have to travel because that's where the job is. When wifey was made redundant priority was a new job in town like her old one, after 2 months got one, walked to work on the first day to be told "sorry, cannot afford to pay you, should have written or phoned I suppose, goodbye". Next job offer was 3 junctions up the M1 which she took and 2 years later still joins the busy traffic on a daily basis. Travelling is not by choice, if she wants a job its essential.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - IRC

In Glasgow the congestion is, by London standards, non existent. I drive 18 miles each way from the northest side of the city to the south east side going within a mile of the city centre. At 7am going in it takes under 30 minutes. Going home at 6pm it's 45 minutes.

Downside? Due to the local job market one son moved to Cambridge to get a good job. My other son moved 200 miles to the highlands to get a pretty low level job.

Congestion? It's there for a reason.

That said, the govt doesn't spend nearly enough on roads. Rail gets a huge percentage of transport cash despite carrying a tiny percentage of the traffic. 60 years after the motorway network was started there is still no full motorway link between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

A new north-south motorway somewhere parallel to the M6 as far north as Preston should have been built years ago. How can it be called a national network when traffic volume has the main routes at a standstill for much of the day?

The proposed 30 billion (and the rest) high speed rail line cash would be better spent on moremotorways.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Ed V

The theory says reduce taxes to just one or two - income and sales for example.

Problem? totally transparent, and that would never do! A scarily large number think the amount of tax they pay is that shown on their payslips, which suits HMG just fine.

And it doesn't allow Governments to play with their people's lives, which they so love to do to "encourage" different types of behaviour.

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - Bobbin Threadbare

Have a look at patheticmotorways.org.......that's got some interesting plans on it. I'd agree with the idea about having another motorway parallel to the M6; it might take away some of the horrible congestion we suffer up here because of Manchester. Or just remove Manchester....

Any - Time to get your hand in your pocket again chaps.... - skidpan

If your car is in the £0 RFL bracket any increse in fuel duty is going to upset you.

If your car is in the £30 a year RFL braket and you do 10,000 miles a year in a diesel doing 45 mpg you use 1000 litres a year approx. Any increase over 3p per litre is going to upset you.

If your car is in band E at £120 an year RFL and you do 10,000 miles a year at 40mpg any increase over 10.5p per litre is going to upset you.

If you drive some polluting beast in band L and currently pay £460 a year RFL and do 10,000 miles a year at 25mpg any increase over 25 per litre is going to upset you.

Based on that there are going to winners and losers and since we are being encouraged to buy low RFL cars there will be more losers. Since both our cars are in the £30 bracket I am 100% certain we would be big loosers.

This has been an ongoing debate since the early 70's when I first started driving. Originally it was not really about anything other than stopping people dodging paying the RFL, think we can forget about that as a reason now due to continual taxing rules and ANPR cameras. Some still avoid paying but its a much smaller number.

So basically if its 3 pence a litre or less I am all for it.