Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant

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Fri 19 Oct 2012 15:36
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - cascas

The local aircon specialist is offering a aircon winter service including aircon topup, oil charge, moisture and acid flush.

They claim they can accurately analyse the A/C systems requirement without the need to remove existing refrigerant using ambient and vent temperatures, A/C system high & low pressure readings, and they do not need to remove the existing refrigerant.

Had anyone seen this before. It sounds to be a bit like the top up cans that you can buy from Halfords that use a pressure gauge rather than a weight.

I am temped to go to kwik fit, where they use the more traditional auto machine.

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Fri 19 Oct 2012 16:29
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Collos25

Ask them if they are using R1234yf because its being setting cars on fire and should be replaced with R744 or R436b and you are not supposed to mix different types of gas .

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Fri 19 Oct 2012 17:31
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - elekie&a/c doctor

As there is no "dipstick" on an a/c system ,it is not possible to ascertain how much gas is in the system.Topping up is a quick fix that usually renders the system inefficient.The only way to do the job correctly is to recover the gas within the system and start from scratch.You car will be filled with the very popular r134a gas.The new gas r1234 will not be in full use for another few years as the cost at present is around £350/kilo.hth

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Fri 19 Oct 2012 17:36
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Collos25

The new gas R1234yf is in use already in all newish cars but is being phased out because of the dangers and is being replaced with a new gas as stated, r134a is I believe now illegal.

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Sat 20 Oct 2012 20:23
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Collos25

R134a is illegal from Dec 20th.

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Fri 19 Oct 2012 18:21
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - cascas

I have doubts about the "winter service" that the local aircon "specalist" is offering. I cannot see how they are acheiving system moisture and acid flush, top up of gas and oil without removing what is in there, as in a standard type recharge, where is vacumme is pulled to boil off any moisture.

There is a lot of info on the web on the DIY type kits that do seem to work (in so far as they improve the performance of the ac) after use. I suspect that this garage is using the same as a quick top up, and away you go.

Coolcaraircon, offer two services Recharge and Full Service. The recharge does not recover refrigerant, or vacuume the system. http://www.coolcaraircon.co.uk/car-air-conditioning-services-prices/. Again is this to be avoided?

Lastly, does oil need to be added when refilling the system. Does the oil escape over time. or get removed by recharging?

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Sat 20 Oct 2012 20:16
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Hamsafar

The place that does mine uses the digital thermometers and high and low pressure.

They too say there is no need to evacuate or dry the system if it hasn't been apart, and have developed an 'eye' or an insight from years of experience. They say the machines that evacuate everything and refill are good for people who aren't experienced. Some of the more talkative staff explain everything they do and show how much better it is after, and predict the fans coming on stage one and two to a few seconds just by looking at their dials.

Who am I to question that? I have been with several cars over the years and always come away happy, they charge £10-30 cash depending who is there ;-) and fit out new refrigerated trailers and vans and their core business as well as work for SCANIA coaches.

I suppose to them it is an 'art' and to the kwik-fit wheel up machine it operates as a 'science'.

I am happy with whicever is best value.

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Sat 20 Oct 2012 20:22
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Collos25

Out of interest how do they decide what gas is already in the system and what gas are they going to refill the system with.

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Sat 20 Oct 2012 22:35
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - cascas

I have googled this quite a bit, and seems to me that unless you removing the gas, and recharge by weight, you are just adding more coolant gas by pressure, in exactly the same way as a DIY kit. i.e http://www.interdynamics-europe.co.uk/

If the system is not empty, then no moisture should have been able to enter, and so a top up will improve cooling. The question is (which I have not been able to answer) is, can you add coolant by measuring pressure rather than weight.

In an a/c set up where there weight is not know, how is the amount determined. i.e custom ac setup, or ac in a building - is it charged by weight or pressure?

What worries me more, is that these products contain a leak sealant, and Quickboost that according to other forums should not be added as they may cause long term issues (death kits)

Some of the american forums, seem to suggest than routine servicing is not required, and should only take place once there are performance issues.

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Sat 20 Oct 2012 23:00
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - elekie&a/c doctor
The car makers go a long way to give a specific gas charge quantity in gms with a tolerance of approx 5% to enable the a/c system to perform to spec.So in order to reach this efficiency the system needs to be drained,vacuumed and charged from scratch,adding oil as reqd.If a system is low on gas,then the remainder of the system is likely to be a proportion of air ,which when compressed ,produces water.A total killer in any a/c system.There is a relation between pressure and temp(remember Boyles law),but when servicing an a/c system,I only charge by quantity.This is critical so as not to produce excess pressures.Adding sealant to the system only causes havoc to the next person who services the system.Get it done properly.hth
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Sun 21 Oct 2012 12:15
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - cascas

Thanks for your help.

If the system is drained using a automatic machine, is the oil? Does oil need to be added during top up.

Assuming that the ac is working, how often should the system be drained, vacuumed and harge? Or should it be left alone if still cooling?

Local ac company to me is offering, recharge or full service, but it looks like the recharge is only a topup. http://www.coolcaraircon.co.uk/car-air-conditioning-services-prices/

Is the automatic machines like that used by the fast fit centres (kwik fit), doing the job correctly.


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Sun 21 Oct 2012 12:27
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Dave N
Their website consists of 50% BS, plus a few downright lies, so I would avoid.

If your system is running well, leave it alone.

Edited by Dave N on 21/10/2012 at 12:29

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Sun 21 Oct 2012 14:00
Citroen Berlingo Multispace - Aircon topup without removing existing refrigerant - Galaxy

If the system is vacuumed then most of the oil will be removed, along with all of the refrigerant. The fact that most of the oil has been removed will be taken into account when the system is regassed, i.e. an appropriate amount of fresh oil will be added.

As far as I'm concerned, the aircon is only regassed when it no longer gets cold, thought I'm sure others will disagree with me!

I think that what the company in that link are saying is that it's not worth them doing a "Recharge", the "Full Service" is the way to go, and is so much better value, too. One costs £49, for which, according to their website, virtually nothing is done, the other costs £59, for which everything is done. I wouldn't mind betting that if you were to get in touch with them and ask for the £49 job, this is what they would tell you. It's a marketing thing.

I've no experience of the machines which Kwik-Fit and similar operations use. From what I've read, they are menu operated and self-instructing for operators.

Personally, I'd prefer to find someone who has some knowledge and experience of air conditioning systems and knows what they are doing.

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