Electronic handbrake on a Hyundai? It was only a matter of time before the cost cutting became noticeable.
How is an electronic handbrake a cost cutting measure?!?
In my world, a load of electronics and a motor are much more expensive than a bit of wire, a handle and a ratchet...
You really do come out with some good ones. lol
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In my world, a load of electronics and a motor are much more expensive than a bit of wire, a handle and a ratchet...
Since the brakes are now electronically controlled via the mandatory ESP and ABS, it is a simple matter to add another wire to a wiring loom. Electric cables are easier to fit round large components-in stark contrast to bowden cables which cannot tolerate sharp bends. Discs on the rear axle also make a manually operated handbrake a headache for engineers because a disc/pad engagement is not positively engaging like a drum/shoe engagement.
Electric handbrakes are an el cheapo measure, dressed up as a luxury labour saving device. Nice to see that some people fall for it...
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Hyundai certainly seem to be riding high at the moment. Part of the reason some other manufacturers have seen their sales decline maybe.
A friend used to have a Hyundai Pony. Although reliable it was a hateful car in all respects. However, despite his determined efforts, it would not die. It was never serviced. Eventually something did go wrong - lack of oil probably - and the local fire brigade used it for fire practice.
Another friend has an i20. He's had a few problems - clutch mainly - but the dealer has been excellent and overall he's pleased.
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These cheaper Far Eastern companies are getting a lot of business of late - Hyundai and Kia have just about the longest warranty periods going. I personally like the Hyundai Coupé; it's on my shortlist for my next car. The Veloster they've come up with is quite nice looking too.
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These cheaper Far Eastern companies are getting a lot of business of late - Hyundai and Kia have just about the longest warranty periods going. I personally like the Hyundai Coupé; it's on my shortlist for my next car. The Veloster they've come up with is quite nice looking too.
We got an i30 to replace a rotten Almera. The i30 has been brilliant. It's not exactly a Focus, but it drives almost as well, the 1.4 is 109PS and does 42mpg average, one niggle was fixed first time at first service, and £10k on the road brand new was cheaper than a 1 year old, lower specced Focus or Astra. We have Climate, iPod control, 5 alloys, ESP, the lot.
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In my world, a load of electronics and a motor are much more expensive than a bit of wire, a handle and a ratchet...
Since the brakes are now electronically controlled via the mandatory ESP and ABS, it is a simple matter to add another wire to a wiring loom. Electric cables are easier to fit round large components-in stark contrast to bowden cables which cannot tolerate sharp bends. Discs on the rear axle also make a manually operated handbrake a headache for engineers because a disc/pad engagement is not positively engaging like a drum/shoe engagement.
Electric handbrakes are an el cheapo measure, dressed up as a luxury labour saving device. Nice to see that some people fall for it...
Erm...rubbish. Electronic handbrakes are nothing to do with the ABS or ESP.
They're controlled by their own ECU, and a motor on the back axle pulls two cables to operate the rear caliper brakes. Renault have that system, as do Vauxhall - that's why they both have a handle in the boot to release the handbrake in case of system failure, but that means reattaching the cables to the motor. You can also hear the motor "winching" the cables, hence the uneasy wait and rolling away associated with these stupid designs.
The ECU is a common failure point in the Megane, as it's in the box-of-gubbins on the rear axle.
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Delphi (a big supplier of these carbuncle designs) doesn't even offer a stand alone electric parking brake. Most of the designs ARE incorporated into the electric caliper.
I do agree with you that they are truely awful ideas. I think the hill assist feature is a big swaying factor for diesel applications. OEMs got pretty peed off with drivers simply letting the clutch out at idle speed on hill starts because it was hard on DMFs.
As is often the case, if people can't be trusted to do something, then the toys have to be taken out of their hands!
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In my world, a load of electronics and a motor are much more expensive than a bit of wire, a handle and a ratchet...
Since the brakes are now electronically controlled via the mandatory ESP and ABS, it is a simple matter to add another wire to a wiring loom. Electric cables are easier to fit round large components-in stark contrast to bowden cables which cannot tolerate sharp bends. Discs on the rear axle also make a manually operated handbrake a headache for engineers because a disc/pad engagement is not positively engaging like a drum/shoe engagement.
Electric handbrakes are an el cheapo measure, dressed up as a luxury labour saving device. Nice to see that some people fall for it...
I have to disagree here, as another poster has said, ESP and ABS can modulate the brake pressure but not apply a brake or parking brake the way that an electronic handbrake does. I dont think it is an el-cheapo addition, and also if they work well they are great. I have one in my car with auto hill-hold assist which I have never been able to catch out yet.
My concern would be the quality of the implementation of such a feature on cheaper cars such as Hyundai.
Edited by Roly93 on 11/03/2012 at 17:32
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My concern would be the quality of the implementation of such a feature on cheaper cars such as Hyundai.
Agreed, I've driven 3 cars with the electric handbrake. Megane Scenic (rental), Mk6 Astra (rental), and Passat. The only one that worked properly was the Passat.
The Scenic one was horrible, taking ages to apply, and needing a button pressed to release.
The Astra again took too long to apply, and you basically needed to drive off and the brake was supposed to release itself. Except it didn't always, leaving the car dragging it's back wheels like a Terrier with an itchy hole.
The Passat's one was seamless.
Calling Hyundai "cheap" is a bit harsh - yes, they're cheap, but a lot of "premium" cars are more expensive but not better.
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It doesnt come down to how 'cheap' a brand is - rather; how reliable they are, and how good their electronics are.
All jap manufacturers will be cheaper than Audi for example; and stats show - a heck of lot more reliable. I know who's 'electronic brake' I would trust.
Kia battered VAG in recent reliability surverys - i'd cut them some slack
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It doesnt come down to how 'cheap' a brand is - rather; how reliable they are, and how good their electronics are.
All jap manufacturers will be cheaper than Audi for example; and stats show - a heck of lot more reliable. I know who's 'electronic brake' I would trust.
Kia battered VAG in recent reliability surverys - i'd cut them some slack
Since when has Kia & Hyundai been Jap manufaturers ? If there were as many Kias and Hyundais doing the work and mileage in the UK that VaG cars do I'm sure you would see a lot more faults on the cars. Brands can be smug about fault numbers when they have realtively small market penetration. I,m sorry they dont get any slack yet !!
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Brands can be smug about fault numbers when they have realtively small market penetration.
Indeed. VAG's market share of new registrations runs at almost 20%. I think Kia's is about 2.5%. So if they were equally reliable, you'd expect nearly 10 times as many VAG complaints as Kiaones.
Subjectively, you could also argue that certain cars attract a certain type of demographic (the Honda Jazz springs to mind). Would the average Honda Jazz owner be as likely to join a forum to complain about a fault as an Audi A4 driver? My gut instinct thinks not, but I admit that I can't substantiate the claim.
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It doesnt come down to how 'cheap' a brand is - rather; how reliable they are, and how good their electronics are.
All jap manufacturers will be cheaper than Audi for example; and stats show - a heck of lot more reliable. I know who's 'electronic brake' I would trust.
Kia battered VAG in recent reliability surverys - i'd cut them some slack
Since when has Kia & Hyundai been Jap manufaturers ? If there were as many Kias and Hyundais doing the work and mileage in the UK that VaG cars do I'm sure you would see a lot more faults on the cars. Brands can be smug about fault numbers when they have realtively small market penetration. I,m sorry they dont get any slack yet !!
It was a seperate 'paragraph' - who on earth would consider them Japanese?
That's a fair point - they dont have the market penetration so the sample sizes will be comparatively small.
Having said that - when will you ever see VAG offering a 7 year warranty?
I have never owned a VAG car but it doesnt take a genious to realise that the reliability of their cars seems to have gone downhill over the last few years
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I know loads of people with VAG cars-all TDIs-some CR, some PD. Not one has had a problem with their engines, and only one (Fabia VRS) has had problems with non serviceable parts (suspension).
when will you ever see VAG offering a 7 year warranty?
Hopefully never. Long warranties are full of holes (expected lifetime of component etc.) and are simply designed to rake the gullible into seven years of dealership £200-a-shot oil and filter changes. Ker-chiiing!!
I'm not 'anti' Hyundai/Kia-but the warranty scam is a dirty trick designed to keep the retail price artificially attractive.
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Please explain what you mean by:
Hyundai/Kia ....the warranty scam
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I think what unthrottled means is although the warranty is a very long 7 years, its got so many caveats, holes and requirements in it that the likelyhood of it being any use to you is no greater than the standard 3 years you get from everywhere else.
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I recently purchased a Kia c eed 1.6 crdi, second hand from a main Kia dealer. When i went to pick the car up it transpired that the car had never been serviced since new. When I started to lose interest very quickly the salesman told me, and I quote " the 7 year warranty will still stand providing that the problem isn t one that may have arisen as a result of the car not being serviced" .......
I do think that the longer the warranty the better, however there do seem to be a lot of clauses. Electronics I understand are only covered for 3 years.
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I think what unthrottled means is although the warranty is a very long 7 years, its got so many caveats, holes and requirements in it that the likelyhood of it being any use to you is no greater than the standard 3 years you get from everywhere else.
Try Vauxhall warranty. It's supposed to be 3 years, but really in my experience after the first year most things aren't covered.
Broken seat sir? Sorry, that's trim and isn't covered after 12 months.
Corrosion on rear wheel arch? Sorry, that's paint and isn't covered unless it goes in to a gaping hole.
Immobiliser fault? Sorry sir, that's electrical and isn't covered, but as goodwill we'll pay 50%.
Engine leaking oil like the Exxon Valdez? Please come back every two weeks while we f*** about refilling and measuring until the timing belt is ruined, then take the head off to fix the leak, time it wrong, crash the valves, the return it with more faults than it went in with including aircon not working, and that's not covered either.
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Are you using stupid Microsoft, Trilogy? Try Google Chrome or Firefox.
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when will you ever see VAG offering a 7 year warranty?
Hopefully never. Long warranties are full of holes (expected lifetime of component etc.) and are simply designed to rake the gullible into seven years of dealership £200-a-shot oil and filter changes. Ker-chiiing!!
I'm not 'anti' Hyundai/Kia-but the warranty scam is a dirty trick designed to keep the retail price artificially attractive.
Who honestly believes you will be able to claim for much after aboiut year 4 on these warranties, as stated above, it is a cynical marketing ploy designed to suck in Mr & Mrs Bloggs (retired). Even in the evennt of being able to claim for a failed water pump in year 6 if the main-dealer service record isn't immaculate you've probably had it. And anyway you would have spent so much on main dealer servicing that they haven't taken much of a financial hit anyway.
I am not anti-Hyundai either.
Edited by Roly93 on 13/03/2012 at 08:34
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Has anybody got any real evidence of Hyundai or Kia wriggling out of warranty claims, as opposed to idle speculation along the lines of "Who honestly believes..."?
It's clear that the warranty is far superior to most other makes - I recall a thread on here a while ago mentioning that VW only offer 6 months warranty on shock absorbers (and this is indeed written into the warranty information available on the VW website). Hyundai's warranty specifies shock absorbers as one on the items that is covered for the full 5 years, though they do put a 60,000 mile limit on them.
It's not so long ago that 12 month warranties were the norm - I think Nissan were the first mainstream manufacturer to offer 3 years. I always found it strange that anybody ever bought a Ford Maverick with a 12 month warranty when the Nissan Terrano was the same vehicle, built on the same assembly line from the same components, but with 36 months.
In our family we have an i30 estate, 28 months old now. I don't know if the warranty is any good yet as it's only ever been back to the dealer for 2 routine services at about £220 each including collection from home (and delivery back obviously). The long warranty certainly influenced our decsion to buy it, but it was also very good value.
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Has anybody got any real evidence of Hyundai or Kia wriggling out of warranty claims, as opposed to idle speculation along the lines of "Who honestly believes..."?
In our family we have an i30 estate, 28 months old now. I don't know if the warranty is any good yet as it's only ever been back to the dealer for 2 routine services at about £220 each including collection from home (and delivery back obviously). The long warranty certainly influenced our decsion to buy it, but it was also very good value.
Our i30 went in for it's first service last June. The central locking went wrong once in the first year (driver's door locked the OH out of the car). There were two suspension related recalls too. Hyundai dealer replaced a door handle and the ignition barrel while it was in for the service.
It'll be going for it's 2nd service this June, and the central locking is still a bit strange, the passenger's door doesn't always open on first pull of the handle. I fully expect that to be fixed first time too.
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You do post some drivel unthrottled.
I am trying my best to buy a car with at lest a 5 year warranty, a long warranty reflects the makers confidence in the product.
Unfortunately the car has to be desirable, which is what i'm struggling with at the moment.
It was if i recall correctly our friends the Japanese who first introduced a 3 year warranty?
The Vag group cars are only average as for as i'm concerned.
Having owned a new Audi Quattro A4 Avant, i am talking from personal experience, not hear say.
I have had much more satisfaction owning Jap cars than any other, but am more than willing to try a Kia, but only if one is what i want.
Edited by xtrailman on 13/03/2012 at 12:18
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The new I30 is a good looker as well. Saw one this morning in white. Good to see they have not followed the (now very overdone) trend of the backward slope on the rear windows.
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Unthrottled - you do not have to have the car serviced by kia (£200 oil changes as you mention) for the warranty to remain.
A mate of mine had the starter motor replaced on his when it was 4 years old. Serviced using OEM parts at local mechanic. So they do honour the warranty it seems (at least in this case, anyway)
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Speaking from experience my Hyundai experience isn’t outstanding based on two brand new cars.
First one. i10 Manual 2009.
Clutch Judder – New clutch fitted immediately prior to my selling it in disgust.
Radio not receiving traffic broadcasts. – Software update.
Rear seats backrest wont stay put. – Adjusted.
Side protection strips coming adrift. – Replaced.
Rear Hatch struts ineffective. – Replaced.
Sunvisors wont stay put and don’t shield low sun. – No fix available.
Poor mpg. Driver error implied.
Gearbox clonk between 1 st and 2 nd . – Characteristic, No fix available.
Next one. i10 Automatic. 2011.
Droning resonance at 3250 rpm. Fix still being sought at Hyundai Motor India.
Sunvisor - as above (suggestion was to fix a block of something to hold in position).
Rear Hatch struts. – Replaced.
Radio won’t maintain Radio 4 and Classic FM. No fix available.
Rear brake binding (handbrake mechanism jammed). Repaired and new linings fitted.
Average mpg :- 35.5 from new.
Customer Service Helpline abysmal. Required tenacious nagging to dealer management and emails to Hyundai management to get anything done with both cars.
Hyundai Head Office Engineering and Service Manager involved in order to get resonance fix sought (not yet available as we speak – awaiting Hyundai India).
But it was pretty much the cheapest city car considering what I got for what I paid – so you pays yer money……..(false economy????)
Customer Service just wants to fob you off (not helped by Hyundai contracting out the RAC to run their helpline for them).
They sell themselves on price and if you get one that’s not a lemon you’re OK. If you get a lemon you’re stuffed.
No-one minds getting a duffer…. if they go out of their way to put it right, but the dealers seem to have their hands tied behing their back with support like this from Head Office.
I had a Jazz before this so I was spoilt, I suppose.
So when I see Mr Whitehorn on the TV saying what a wonderful time they’re having , selling cars like hot cakes, it doesn’t fill me with love and joy. If he’d bothered to ensure I had good after sales service having bought two lemons, it wouldn’t be so bad but I’m afraid he’s off my Christmas card list.
I got the auto because of the clutch problems with the manual, only to find the auto. version was a shocker to drive at 70mph.
Yes, my fault for not learning my lesson with the first one.
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(Duplicate post)
Edited by Avant on 13/03/2012 at 22:12
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Poor and variable fuel economy is a common complaint with the korean cars.
Poor backup from my Nissan experience is usually a useless dealer, i now have a good dealer, so any complaints are now dealt with fairly.
I fancy a Mazda cx-5 next, but Mazda website has no email??
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Well isn't KB an unlucky guy !
My wife's i10 is a little belter, it has had to go back in for the headlight levelling motor fix - completed no problem
The Alloys were showing corrosion at 2 1/2 years, the dealer contacted Hyundai and all 4 replaced without complaint.
No other problems and she is now in her 3rd year, now compared to the Ford dealer with the Fiesta before its like night and day, you want ignored buy a Ford !
For the price/equipment/warranty etc the i10 is an excellent choice and Auto Express has just said its the best city car again in the price bracket. I honestly do not understand people buying Citroen C1/107 etc when the i10 is so much better.
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"Well isn't KB an unlucky guy !............ "
Yes, isn't he!
I've just got it back having had the rear brakes repaired and the shoes renewed and the rear hatch struts replaced.
Some of the issues have been well recognized....ie the clutch judder and the headlamp adjusters were two of the outstanding ones which took so long to find a fix for. As has been said many times, if you have a good one you're lucky and you'll enjoy it. I do think I was unlucky to have had the problems I have had. But see below regarding the service I, personally, had from the Hyundai Customer Service Department.
"Poor backup from my Nissan experience is usually a useless dealer.........."
Yes, and with the first car not only did I have the actual, tangible, physical faults described, I had a dealer who, following Hyundai Head Office Management intervention, ceased trading and Hyundai had new Management put in place and is now, to the best of my knowledge, perfectly OK. My current dealer who supplied the second car has a Service Department which is doing their very best for me and are to be congratulated but, in my case, were constrained by Hyundai firstly denying I had a problem - then, after being vigorously pursued, displaying a very dismissive attitude did they eventually get their Technical Manager involved but not without a major communication initiative from me - otherwise they were perfectly happy to do nothing. Maybe it’s got something to do with Hyundai not running their own Customer Service department and being closer in touch with th customer ……….the customer – you know, the one who buys the things in the first place….some of us using our own money so to do!
“Tbh, true lemons tend to show their true colours in a fairly short space of time……”
Yes, my vibration on the present car was present on the way home after having collected it, new, from the dealer with 60 miles on the clock. But my clutch judder on the first car took a whole month or so to manifest itself.
Like I said, it's OK to have problems, it's how they get sorted that makes the difference.
And speaking of getting it wrong.....I couldn't manage to post just one entry above without duplicating it - MY FAULT! - could a mod. delete the top one please. Sorry about that.
And I’ve strayed from the i40 topic for which I apologise…but it is Hyundai related though J
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As I understand it, there's a 'fair wear and tear' clause on a lot of parts. Suspension components and electrics have a shorter warranty-and these tend to be the bits that actually break or a pain to diagnose and fix.
Dealers cannot invalidate a warranty because a car has not been serviced through a franchised dealer. But warranty claims are often of a discretionary nature and subject to 'goodwill contributions'. If you don't service your car with them, that goodwill is often not forthcoming because you are not a 'loyal customer'.
Tbh, true lemons tend to show their true colours in a fairly short space of time. If a car doesn't display any problems in the first 3 years, then the chances are that it is properly screwed together and will stay that way. That way you can just use parts from breakers or motor factors as and when they fail, rather than singing to dealers' tunes.
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As I understand it, there's a 'fair wear and tear' clause on a lot of parts. Suspension components and electrics have a shorter warranty-and these tend to be the bits that actually break or a pain to diagnose and fix.
Thats exactly my point from my earlier post what bits of a car are left that could be warranty repaired after say 6 years ??? As for the theory that a long warranty demonstrates the manufacturers confidence I have only one word to say - MARKETING.
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It is not inconceivable that manufacturers use long warranties as an excuse to fit components of substandard quality. With warranties, you only have to replace the components that fail within the warranty period. Customers will tolerate the inconveniece of having to return the car to the dealer because the parts and labour are free. If parts fail justside of a short warranty, then the manufacturer doesn't pay but their reputation is soon irreparably trashed. This is what happened to Renault.
My '96 Megane was fitted with fairly pricey electrical equipment (Bosch ignition system, Siemans fuel system, Pierberg throttle body etc), yet only came with a 1 year warranty. Every single one of the electrical components (and ancillaries like alternator and starter motor etc.) still work perfectly.
Only a couple of years' later Reault were using cheap suppliers like Sagem and the durability plummeted.
i saw the same on my dad's 02 Focus. Cheap coil packs (failed), cheap starter motor (failed), cheap lambda sensor (failed), cheap electric window motors (failed). Nothing catastrophic but cumulatively rather irritating. The Focus came with a 3 year warranty yet gave more problems. I know a sample size of one isn't exactly rigorous but perhaps illustrative? :)
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It is not inconceivable that manufacturers use long warranties as an excuse to fit components of substandard quality. With warranties, you only have to replace the components that fail within the warranty period. Customers will tolerate the inconveniece of having to return the car to the dealer because the parts and labour are free.
In software it was commonplace to hack the product, and not test it properly, then fix bugs when customers complained, or sometimes go bust when they refused to buy the product as it was unreliable. These days companies have learnt that it is cheaper to spend more time up front getting the product right first time. The cost for a developer to take a bit more time to test his/her work properly is much less than the cost of a bug which means a) create the feature b) angry customer reports feature bug, c) customer service feed information back d) management examine bug report, allocate to development team e) team discuss and fix bug f) team test fix g) company ships fixed product. Now software is not car manufacturing, but I suspect the overheads from fixing faults outweigh the small extra cost of a better component in the first place.
And back on the ranch, checking Which Car magazine scores, the Hyundai i10, i20 and i30 Estate have a lot of breakdowns, faults and niggles compared to the best makes/cars. It does look like Japanese good, Europe bad, does not hold. I think European makers have taken on board a lot of Japanese manufacturing methods. As for Hyundai, I might expect customers to complain less. If you buy a premium car, you expect perfection. If you buy a bargain priced car, you do not expect perfection. But they do have a lot of faults (according to Which Car stats that is).
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Our i30 is going for it's 2nd service next week. Again, as I said earlier, only the central locking is giving issues, and I've traced the problem to the plastic trim round the inside door handles binding on the little lock button. Sometimes the button doesn't pop out far enough, letting you exit the car but unable to get back in through the affected door. £2 plastic parts, eh?
Dealer has new trims ordered to be fitted on all 4 doors. Otherwise everything is peachy. Still doing 42mpg, 13k on the clock so far and it's getting used more recently so miles are racking up faster than before.
Only major complaint I have is the truely rubbish OE tyres (Hankook Optimo). They're lumpy, they're noisy, and they tramline. Fronts are down to 4mm, rears are like new, annoyingly. The sooner they wear out the better, and I get some decent tyres on there.
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