Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - GazNicki

Any thoughts or advice with regards to the Passat 2.5V6 TDI engine? Is it relaiable, or a money pit?

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - unthrottled

Is this the old one with the Bosch rotary pump?

The pump is noisy. It sounds like a bag of spanners when it's fired up. They're also much less economical than the 1.9 4 pots.

Timing belt changes are very expensive- the pump is timed off the belt which further complicates things. On the road, they are smooth and relatively quiet though.

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - GazNicki

Would be the older variant.

So would you avoid, or get one knowing the belt had recently been changed?

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - oldtoffee

I bought a Skoda Superb with the same engine and as part of the deal had the main Skoda dealer fit new belts and waterpump. They didn't fit the new water pump saying it looked ok so I put them right on that and they did it. Drove the car home and they had fitted the belts incorrcetly and the timing was out, car stalled a few times and then died. AA recovery almost pulled one of the belts off by hand it was so loose. Got my money back and then checked out some forums when deciding where to spend my money again and it seems a pretty divided camp those who have a good one love them but there are many who have horror stories especially of the oil pump. I ened up bottling out of buying another and going for the 1.9 PD 130 4 cylinder in a Passat and was very pleased with it. Not quite as smooth but very good and markedly better economy.

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - 659FBE

The 2.5 V6 VAG diesel engine is not generally a useful prime mover when compared with the 4 cyl 1.9 PD for several reasons:

It's an old tech engine with a rotary pump. Injection pressures are low and the specific fuel consumption very high. Compare the CO2/tax ratings for an auto version of a Passat/Superb when fitted with with each engine. Then compare the performance differences - there's not a lot in it.

Slush box autos are a useful test bed (possibly their only use when mated to a diesel) for comparative engine performance figures because they are so very lossy and therefore make the engine work hard. Under such conditions differences in specific fuel consumption and CO2 emissions are thrown into sharp relief. Due to the high torques achieved generally by forced induction diesel engines, torque convertor autos are useless, lossy and unreliable and don't make for a good partnership with this type of engine. Hence the DSG.

Belt changes on the V6 need to be expertly accomplished in order to maintain performance and a measure of reliability. It's a stupid setup with the water pump bearings being very highly stressed (driven by the cambelt at the bottom of the Vee) and the VP44 pump being separately driven and requiring careful re-timing. Maintaining these engines properly results in costs which are quite out of scale with their utility and which nullify any diesel savings.

The jewel in the crown of the V6 is the Bosch VP44 rotary pump. As a radial piston pump, (made allowable when CAV's patent on this configuration expired) it's reasonable, but the disaster is the incorporation of a fair chunk of (flimsy) electronics inside the pump. Utter madness. The reliability record of this pump is dreadful in all applications regardless of engine maker - and repairs are expensive. There is also the not insignificant matter of getting at it and reassembly with new belts.

Not my favourite engine as you may by now have gathered. The 1.9PD (130 PS) trounces it. Pity about the later PDs.

659.

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - Dave N

"Due to the high torques achieved generally by forced induction diesel engines, torque convertor autos are useless, lossy and unreliable and don't make for a good partnership with this type of engine."

So no regular auto works with turbo diesels?

Rubbsih. They've been used for many years behind pwerful diesels without issue.

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - unthrottled

Allison don't seem to have to have too many issues mating Cummins N14s (1500+lbf.ft) to torque converters!

But they are a challenge in automotive applications and most autobox diesels are automated manuals.

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - 659FBE

The great difficulty with this configuration is the torque which these engines produce and the low crank speeds at which they do it.

Both of these factors conspire to put the torque convertor in the most lossy area of its operating map. If you make some manual/auto comparisons of a heavy, high torque vehicle such as the one outlined above my point will be well made. Look at the figures for yourself.

This is why all of the vehicle builders who have both diesel expertise (in-house or acquired) and transmission design capability have brought out systems such as the DSG as exemplified by VAG.

Designing and tooling for such transmissions is not cheap - I would doubt whether the likes of VAG and Ford would waste their money.

659.

Google "VP44 Failures" and see how the world is getting on with it...

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - unthrottled

So what you're saying is that with an idle speed of about 850 RPM and peak torque coming in by about twice idle speed, the engine cannot effectively stall the converter if the torque converter is to be virtually unloaded at idle speed?

Agreed. But that's not quite the same thing as saying that torque converters can't operate at low angular speeds!

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - craig-pd130

Can't add much to the technical analyses above, but I can add personal experience of driving a friend's 02 plate Audi A6 2.5TDI when I owned a 03 plate Passat PD130 B5.5.

I was horrified by how rough-sounding, vibratory and sluggish the V6 was compared with the PD 4-pot. As I'm sure you know, no-one would describe a PD engine as particularly couth, despite its excellent driving characteristics, punch and economy, yet the V6 made the PD sound and feel smooth by comparison.

Sure enough, mate's V6 lunched its fuel pump in less than a year, taking out much of the injection system with it. From memory, he averaged around 35mpg when the Passat gave me 45+

Edited by craig-pd130 on 10/02/2012 at 19:21

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - Dave N

The later Landcruiser diesels with autobox produce better mpg than the equivilent manual versions, despite have max torque at low engine speeds. And not an unreliable, jerky, DSG in sight.

Passat 2.5V6 TDI - Any thoughts - unthrottled

Friend has one in an 05 Audi A4. From inside it is quiet and I think quite punchy. But it's all insulation! Outside, it is very clattery. I think he averages about 35 too.