Bobbin, plenty of time for you to become PM. Unthrottled and jamie747 would make good MPs. Always good at arguing their respective corners! :)
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She was a "grocers daughter" and understood basic economics, more tan can be said for our current "great leader"!
You don't borrow money and then give it away to others...
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I'm not sure i'd suit the politically restrained role of an MP or Minister. I'd rather be campaign manager or something, an unelected position where i can say and do whatever i want.
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Jamie ,you could be the new George Galloway ,lots of heat ,not much light .
Miaow !
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Bobbin, plenty of time for you to become PM. Unthrottled and jamie747 would make good MPs. Always good at arguing their respective corners! :)
I'll give it a try. Jamie can't be in my Cabinet - think of the scandals! It would overshadow my superb policy making ;-)
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Go for it Bobbin, I must admit I read more common sense and reasoned argument on this forum than on any 'political' discussion that is broadcast. I dare say we could cobble together a decent cabinet from the forum. What makes me really laugh is when some 'johnny come lately' Labour politician, who is all of 25 keeps banging on about Mrs T when she has not been in Government for 22 years!
We will be blaming everything on Lloyd George next.
If we had Jamie we would have to watch his expenses pretty closely! And of course keep him well away from the female staff! Alistair Campbell watch out!!!
Very interesting prospect all this, any more volunteers for a cabinet role?
Cheers Concrete
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What makes me really laugh is when some 'johnny come lately' Labour politician, who is all of 25 keeps banging on about Mrs T when she has not been in Government for 22 years!
Im not sure if you're aware but people have the internet and books these days, giving them access to historical material and facts. People are allowed to have an opinion on things they did not personally experience. Frankly i'd be more concerned if each generation was completely ignorance to history and failed to learn from the mistakes of the previous generation.
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I am aware of many things, the obvious ones you mention and many others beside. The whole point is not one of learning history and having opinions and free speech to express them. The point is the blame laying for todays' problems being linked, mainly very tenuously, with events and figures from the past. If you can prove cause and effect from a single political decision from 25 years ago which directly impacts upon an event today I take my hat off to you. You have succeeded where all others have failed. That is the holy grail, to be able to conclusivey prove the cause and effect of political decisions. Also I don't know if you have children. If so just watch them make the same mistakes you made, even after you have given the benefit of your history of mistakes. Discuss. Concrete
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The point is the blame laying for todays' problems being linked, mainly very tenuously, with events and figures from the past.
Indeed, the events of that so distant past of 2007-2009 when Governments and Banks co-conspired to crash the economy are indeed being blamed for most of the problems we face today. Im not sure where Thatcher directly comes into it.
If you can prove cause and effect from a single political decision from 25 years ago which directly impacts upon an event today I take my hat off to you.
Well thats a pathetic remark in the first place because its rare any single political decision affects anything, usually its a combination of several made up by consistent policy over a number of years which have a lasting effect and its reasonable to suggest Thatcher's Government did have a long lasting effect on many things.
Thats also a pathetic remark because to directly link cause and effect over 25 years while ignoring everything in between is bonkers anyway. What we can do is link several decisions to each other and speculate that had a different choice been made somewhere along the line, several later events couldve been altered. Like you could speculate some parts of England still feel the effects of the Miners strike, not directly but due to the chain reaction of events caused by them. But thats a long thread for another day.
Its reasonable to suggest much broad Conservative policy still dates back to Thatcher's time, despite the partys attempts to counter their 'nasty party' image but aside from the declaration of Wars, hardly anything of long lasting significance has ever been the cause of one single politicians decision. Its all about the chain reaction.
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Jamie, I am sorry that you find my remarks pathetic. Pathetic, the adjective form of Pathos which is to engender tender emotions. I think I obviously aroused some of those in you and I apologise. This is not meant to descend into a political bun fight nor be a criticism of anyones opinions. The thread developed from the misrepresentation of Mrs Thatcher in the film The Iron Lady. I happen to think that, leaving political leanings on one side, that she deserved a better representation.
Regarding the use of her name by people who were in nappies when she was last in power, you have just proved my point in your last post. I agree with you that cause and effect is a pretty useless exercise in politics and the ripple effect has far reaching and often incalculable implications. The chain reaction, as you so aptly put it, often is uncontrollable with unintended consequences the result. Nevertheless Mrs Thatcher's name is still used by the public and politicians alike, usually left wing, when some negative comparison is drawn. The crass ignorance displayed in doing this is astounding. You and I both agree that political decisions made such a long time ago do not really greatly impact or influence todays decisions.
This applies to many other figures from our past, not only Mrs Thatcher. It also negates the assertion that although people have access to the internet and books, some of which contain actual fact, they will learn from them. Many remarks clearly demonstrate that is not the case. I simply wish that refering to the past to qualify or promote a decision for today would more carefully thought out. Not even God can change the past, so todays decisions are for todays issues and the past has little bearing on them save to avoid repeating a mistake. Not composed such a long post for ages, going to lie down in darkened room now. Thanks for your comments Jamie, I think we have more to agree on than disagree. Good luck. Concrete
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The chain reaction, as you so aptly put it, often is uncontrollable with unintended consequences the result.
Not quite, a decision is made with an outcome in mind. To put it down to blind luck is a poor show as these people get paid considerable amounts of money to think of the big picture.
Nevertheless Mrs Thatcher's name is still used by the public and politicians alike, usually left wing, when some negative comparison is drawn.
Conservative politicians dont hesitate to inject Gordon Brown's name into a topic when they get backed into a corner and need a quick get-out so they just blame their failings on him. Tony Blair spent years pointing back to the Thatcher/Major regime but it was far more relevent at that time as it was the previous Government.
You and I both agree that political decisions made such a long time ago do not really greatly impact or influence todays decisions.
I wouldn't go quite that far. You could say the EC referendum in 1975 had a long lasting effect. In 1975 the British public were asked if they wanted to enter the common market, we were not (i'd appreciate input from anybody old enough to vote in '75 here) asked whether or not we wanted the EU to control our traffic laws 40 years later. Obviously in 75 we didnt predict the current situation but its churlish to suggest such agreements should be signed without any thought to the long term picture.
Edited by jamie745 on 08/03/2012 at 15:36
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I voted for membership of the Common Market as it was then, recognising trade with our closest neighbours was in our interests. But this is precisely the situation that becomes uncontrollable when we get drawn in, and the uninentended consequenses are what we noe have. Some did foresee this but they were howled down. If it could be proved that Ted Heath could have predicted this and ignored it then he would be vilified, and rightly so, albeit postumously.
As previously stated, it doesn't matter which name is used, Brown, Blair, Thatcher, Powell etc etc, blame laying has no part in decision making for todays issues or tomorrows plans. Therefore to reference the past in such a negative way is unhelpful to say the least. I do take your comments and the serious points you make. But some days the bigger picture is in focus, some days you just have to sort out what is in front of you. I have enjoyed our exchange of views. Thank you. Cheers Concrete
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Its reasonable to suggest much broad Conservative policy still dates back to Thatcher's time, despite the partys attempts to counter their 'nasty party' image but aside from the declaration of Wars, hardly anything of long lasting significance has ever been the cause of one single politicians decision. Its all about the chain reaction.
That to me illustrates a massive failure on the Conservatives, and a success for the Labours. They successfully redefined the 70's and 80's, focussing only on the conflicts e.g. miner's strike, and ignoring the fact that many parties had struggled to tame the unions, who were using their immense power for pure greed i.e. hold the country to ransom until they got pay rises. The truth is that when Labour came to power, they inherited all the good work done by the Tories, they in effect took the credit for a stable economy, without having got their hands dirty. They had successfully blackened the Tories. I remember being young during Thatcher's reign, and loathing the woman and the party. I swallowed all of the left wing propaganda, such as that surrounding Wapping. Now with the benefit of age I can see that Thatcher restructured the economy in ways that were largely needed. And I can see that Labours are fantastic at propoganda. It is so easy for Labours to claim that they are soft and cuddly, and caring, and Tories are nasty self centred greedy fat cat poor hating toffs. Od how so many Labours come from posh backgrounds, but that is not mentioned when they snipe at Cameron and Osbourne.
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Frankly i'd be more concerned if each generation was completely ignorance to history and failed to learn from the mistakes of the previous generation.
Then be concerned. Most people do not know about the 70's. All they know about is the miner's strike in isolation. The Winter of Discontent is for them just a phrase from an old play.
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Frankly i'd be more concerned if each generation was completely ignorance to history and failed to learn from the mistakes of the previous generation.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
George Santayana "The Life of Reason" 1905
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