Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

This comes from Steve Wade's www.inside.saab.com site. He was the man who ran the saabunited site which was instrumental in much of the support Saab had, and Victor Muller had when the company was saved from GM.

'We have the biggest product portfolio we’ve ever had, with cars that are going to meet the marketplace better than ever, and more new product on the way very soon. Some of the technical innovations we’ve got coming are very, very exciting indeed. Some will be firsts for Saab and some will be world firsts. I’m so very happy that Saab fans will get the chance to see them.'

No one knows how good the Chinese will be at developing and running European car companies. Time will tell.

No doubt some will still slag of Saab and think the company should die. Saab as always been an innovator It's probably brought more world firsts to the market than big boys GM/Ford etc. This niche company deserves to remain amongst an industry of copy cat companies.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

I think you've hit the nail on the head by calling it a niche company. Is niche really profitable now?

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - mss1tw

In what way does today's SAAB mirror the innovative/niche manufacturer everyone seems to mention?

Genuine question. Just because the name happens to be the same it doesn't mean the company bears any resemblance to it's former self. Surely all the innovators left as GM did their usual tricks.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

I drove an 02 plate 9-5 a couple of years ago and really didnt see what this 'innovative' side of Saab is. For cars billed as 'planes on wheels' it struck me as just being a car. Nothing special about it.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

1958: Safety Belts Saab was the first car manufacturer to introduce seat belts as standard. From the very start, Saab played an active part in the development of safety components – in-house as well as in co-operation with subcontractors.

1963: Dual Brake Circuits The diagonally split brake system reduced the risk of losing brake power in the event of damage to the system

1969: Headlamps switch off with ignition – Driving with headlamps in the daylight is a documented safety enhancement. The automatic on/off switch eliminated the risk of discharging the battery by accident.

1969: Ignition lock between front seats - The traditional position of the ignition key caused severe knee injuries, even in minor accidents. Placing the ignition lock between the front seats gets it out of the way. Furthermore, the position is logical, adjacent to the seat belt lock, handbrake and gear lever.

1970: Headlights wash and wipe - Rain and dirt can remove 90% of headlamp illumination. Saab’s simple yet unique solution was to create a wash and wipe system, which later became a legal requirement in many countries.

1971: Energy Absorbing Bumpers - With conventional bumpers, even a minor collision could result in costly repairs. With energy absorbing bumpers, collisions at speeds up to 8km/h require no repairs at all.

1971: Electrically Heated Seats: A major comfort enhancement. Originally it was developed from a health perspective; sitting in a cold seat is not good for anyone. Today, this Saab innovation is a part of the standard equipment in almost any car.

1972: Side Impact Protection - Saab was the first car manufacturer to introduce reinforcement members in the doors, in order to provide side impact protection. Surprisingly enough, the Saab was for many years the only car that offered this added safety.

1976: 3-Way Catalyst Converter - To comply with rigorous emissions regulations, Saab was one of the first car manufacturers to use a Lambda sensor controlled 3-way catalyst converter. Today, this is naturally a standard feature on all Saab cars and continued development work is being carried out to maintain and improve our position in this field.

1976: Turbocharging - Saab was the first car manufacturer to develop a turbo engine with the reliability and durability that is required for everyday use. Turbocharging provides increased output and huge torque at low and medium revs, without the usual increase in weight, cost and fuel consumption.

1978: Collapsible Steering Column - With Saab’s design, the steering column does not penetrate the cabin in a head-on collision. Compared with other similar designs this has the advantage of not affecting the driver’s ability to steer the car even after an accident

1978: Cabin Air Filter - Allergies are an increasing problem. The quality of the air is very important for people who suffer from hay fever or other allergies. Our electrostatic cabin air filter removes pollen and other particles, down to a size of 0.004mm from the incoming air.

1980: APC - Growing concern for the environment and reduced emissions led to the development of APC, Automatic Performance Control. APC enables the engine to run on fuels with a lower octane rating, with no loss of efficiency and durability. This is achieved using combustion process monitoring to control the turbocharger.

1981: Split-field Side Mirror - This Saab innovation eliminates the blind spots when looking to the rear. Simple, inexpensive and subsequently standard de facto.

1982: Asbestos-free Brake Pads - Saab was probably the first car manufacturer to take advantage of the new materials to replace asbestos.

1985: Direct Ignition - By the direct ignition system, Saab eliminated the ignition cables and distributor. Each spark plug has a separate coil which produces a firing spark voltage of 40,000 volts. The result is improved combustion and better cold-starting performance.

1991: Saab Trionic - Saab Trionic was developed in-house and is still one of the world’s most advanced systems for engine management. It measures all the parameters which play a significant part in the combustion process. The data is used for real-time control of turbocharging, fuel injection and ignition. The system also includes ionisation measurement inside the cylinders while the engine is running.

1991: Light Pressure Turbo - With the light pressure turbo, Saab has introduced turbo technology for standard cars with a less pronounced performance profile. Light pressure turbo is used to optimise driving characteristics and overtaking performance.

1991: CFC Free Air Conditioning - By tradition, the coolants used in air conditioning systems were of the CFC type – efficient but with a documented harmful effect on the atmosphere. In the early 90′s alternatives became available and Saab was one of the first to introduce this as standard.

1993: Saab Safeseat - The Saab Safeseat was introduced as a safety design philosophy. The aim is to ensure that all the interior safety features interact correctly and provide maximum protection.

1993: Night Panel - This function blacks out the instrument panel, apart from the speedometer. This reduces the risk of distraction while driving at night. All the systems still work in the background and the appropriate guage or lamp will light up when the driver’s attention is required. A good example of our aircraft heritage.

1995: Ecopower - Saab’s engine development does not simply focus on performance. Power should be instantly available but not at the expense of economy and environmental concern. Ecopower is the collective name for our efforts in this field. Turbo, ignition, engine management and catalytic converters are not treated as separate units, but are optimised to create a harmonious power source.

1996: Saab Active Head Restraint (SAHR) – The number of whiplash injuries would decrease dramatically if all cars had head restraints that were shaped and correctly positioned. That is why Saab has developed the Active Head Restraint. It automatically takes up the correct position in a rear-end impact and controls the movement of the head and vertebrae.

1997: Electronic Brake Force Distribution - To optimise the effect of the brakes, this function distributes the correct amount of the force to the front and rear axle respectively. It is sensitive to the load distribution in the car and, unlike a traditional reduction valve, it does not reduce the total amount of available braking power.

1997: Ventilated Seats - Saab 9-5 is the first car with ventilated seats. As a compliment to air conditioning this provides an outstanding level of comfort and helps the driver to stay fit and alert.

1997: Comsense - Saab introduced a system that reduces the risk of distraction by briefly delaying incoming phone calls and lower priority alerts when the brakes or turn indicators are activated. This helps the driver to stay focused, for example when turning, overtaking or approaching a crossing.

2000: Saab Variable Compression - Saab launched an entirely new engine concept named SVC. Owing to the SVC engine’s unique design, it offers performance on a par with units twice its size but with the fuel consumption of a small engine. The SVC engine is a 5-cylinder 1.6 litre unit producing 225 bhp and it delivers no less than 305 Nm of torque.

2002: ReAxs System - Saab 9-3 Sport Sedan was introduced with a chassis geometry system that ensures smooth interaction of the steering, front suspension and multi-link rear axle. ReAxs enables the rear wheels to steer slightly when turning, helping the car move in the intended direction. It provides crisp steering feedback and contributes to enhanced driving stability in curves.

2003: Cargowing - Serves as a spoiler when lowered. When raised it becomes a functional rack for special holders to carry objects such as skis and snowboards.

2003: CargoSET - A function introduced for Saab 9-3 Convertible that automatically expands the luggage capacity as you raise the soft-top. The space occupied by the folded soft-top becomes available for luggage, providing a total of 380 litres.

2008: XWD – A new all-wheel-drive system developed by Haldex. The Saab 9-3 Turbo X was the first vehicle in the world to use this system, combining new all-wheel-drive hardware with an electronic limited slip differential so that torque can be split not only between front and rear, but also from side to side at the rear wheels.

Edited by richardcroft on 29/10/2011 at 14:41

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - brum

Talk about firsts?

I had a top of the range Saab 99GLE between 1978-1985, it looked the bees knees when I bought it but turned out to be the biggest crock of s***e I ever owned.

Set world records for body corrosion, alloy wheel corrosion etc, friends used to joke if I ever lost my key I could still get in through the holes in the door. Handbuilt engine? Engine troubles a plenty, warped heads, ratting camchains and screws/bolts that kept undoing themselves leading to swimming pools of oil in the passenger footwell. The dealer would just shrug his shoulder and say, they all do that and theres nothing they can do but tighten them up again. And apparently those years "they had a bit of a problem with rust" what an under statement.

I daren't use car polish as half the paint (a nice metallic bugundy) would come off on the polishing cloth.

Other firsts include, seat bottoms collapsing, headlamp wiper mechansisms breaking because they so badly designed, they would just compact the snow at the side of the recessed headlamps until they seized (with an obscured light) and the motor carried on and broke all the linkage. External screws on lamp clusters that rust meaning you cant remove them to cahnge a bulb. 1950's technology electrics (good god. an alternator with a relay voltage regulator!!!), and general shoddy workmanship.

Only good thing was the Borg Warner auto gearbox

I know that are GM cars now, but as far as I'm concerned they are ugly and the chinese are welcome to them.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - mss1tw

I'm sure there are equally massive lists for Ford, Citroen, Honda, etc, etc, probably for exactly the same things with a different name. Not convinced.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

Lancia have an equally impressive list of World automotive firsts and look how much that counted for.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Mike H

@ jamie - I obviously don't know how long you drove it for, but you need to live with them day in day out and munch a few miles in them to really understand their merits. Of course they have their faults as do all cars, but get a good one and will last. At 166,000 miles, my Aero estate auto (265bhp/420Nm) has just completed another high speed Austria-UK return trip, covering 2000 miles in 2 weeks, without missing a beat.

Edited by Mike H on 29/10/2011 at 17:35

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Falkirk Bairn

>>

>>covering 2000 miles in 2 weeks, without missing a beat.

That is roughly 6mph - 2000/(168x2)

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

He didnt say he was driving everyday for 2 weeks. How do you know he didnt drive to Austria, park it for 10 days and drive it back?

@ Mike H I had the car for a couple of weeks, my workplace provided it when my car got smashed by a Zafira in a car park and i just didnt think it was anything special. Nice enough car i suppose but not top of my 'oooo i want one of those' lists if you see what i mean.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Mike H

He didnt say he was driving everyday for 2 weeks. How do you know he didnt drive to Austria, park it for 10 days and drive it back?

@ Mike H I had the car for a couple of weeks, my workplace provided it when my car got smashed by a Zafira in a car park and i just didnt think it was anything special. Nice enough car i suppose but not top of my 'oooo i want one of those' lists if you see what i mean.

Actually, I drove it from, not to, Austria to the UK and back. And then a fair bit around the UK taking in Hull, Cardiff, and Portsmouth on the way.

Anyway, as I said, its virtues grow on you. The point I was making is as you said, it's not a "phwoar, must have one of those" type of car, simply an easy car to live with with and capable of covering large distances in comfort. And on a wet dark night, there aren't many cars that make you feel as totally secure as a Saab.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - 475TBJ

mss1tw

Find all the Ford firsts etc. If big companies can't innovate/create firsts, given their size, at 10 times the level of a small company like Saab, its pretty poor show. If you can find 10 times as many, I very much doubt it.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

jamie, we're on our 3rd Saab. The first were 900s before GM got involved. The present one is a 9-3 hatch of 1998 vintage which we've had since 2002. It's been very reliable and is supremely comfortable and capable of relaxing long distance journeys. The ignition key next to the gear lever is so intuitive. When I had to use a hire car, for 2 weeks I couldn't get used to putting a key in the ignition, to the right of the steering wheel. On the Saab, start it and then put in gear to go, perfect. The same is so in reverse.

I can understand why you didn't like the 9-5 and see why they're a bit of an acquired taste. A neighbour had over 18 consecutive Saabs. He only left the marque when the new 9-3 came out as a saloon. He now has an Octavia vRS, but his wife has kept her pre 2002 convertible.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

Ford Pinto - First car to blow up when you drive in the back of it. Match that Saab!

When you're not spending your money and resources on building mass market cars for sale then you have time on your hands to come up with a lot of 'firsts.'

All companies innovate but plenty of Saab's 'innovations' were just developments of things which other companies were also doing. Like '1994: Saab introduces the 'Trionic T5.5' engine management system, its processor is a Motorola 68332' its an engine management system, all companies develop their own versions of them.

Mercedes are the company who have innovated a lot of big developments, look at the S-Class today to see what'll be on your ordinary hatchback in a decade's time.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

jamie said "All companies innovate". Now's your chance to back up your statement. A list of ALL COMPANIES INNOVATIONS is required.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

Typical Saab owner, cant handle it when people point out that they're not planes on wheels. They're just cars, Vauxhalls with ugly fronts, not much more really. You're trying to make out Saab is the greatest developer in automotive history and everybody else has stolen their ideas and sent Saab down the river which everybody can work out is nonsense.

Edited by jamie745 on 29/10/2011 at 19:34

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Falkirk Bairn

My knowledge of SAABs from 30-40+ yrs (neighbour swore by his SAABs) was very good - tough, well built and some innovations. Plus nice touches that added to this - plastic liners in wheel arches meant no rusty front wings (like all main manufacturers customers had problems with)

Opinions gathered more recently - expensive to buy, very expensive to have serviced/repaired, not the best quality of manufacture...........

SAD rather than SAAB

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Mike H

That is roughly 6mph - 2000/(168x2)

Damn - must get that speedo seen to, it was registering 120mph in Germany ;-)

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Falkirk Bairn

That is roughly 6mph - 2000/(168x2)

Damn - must get that speedo seen to, it was registering 120mph in Germany ;-)

My original post of 6mph was "tongue in cheek"/Legpull and

2 x people fell for it - JOB DONE!

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

My original post of 6mph was "tongue in cheek"/Legpull and

2 x people fell for it - JOB DONE!

As somebody who controls budgets and accounts as his dayjob i find this particularly embarassing.

Edited by jamie745 on 30/10/2011 at 18:33

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - barney100

I think when Saab were their own bosses the cars were individual and offered cars which appealed to many people....a bit like the Citroens of bygone days. Once firms like Saab are taken over by the big boys it seems to go downhill. How many car manufacturers are now memories

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - 475TBJ

jamie745, your mind appears to have gone into over active imagination mode. richardcroft has not inferred anything you've said in your comment (not very nice) below, in his posts. Shame you're unable to substantiate your claim of all companies innovating. You would be credible if you could.

Typical Saab owner, cant handle it when people point out that they're not planes on wheels. They're just cars, Vauxhalls with ugly fronts, not much more really. You're trying to make out Saab is the greatest developer in automotive history and everybody else has stolen their ideas and sent Saab down the river which everybody can work out is nonsense.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

Just because i haven't got the time or energy to sit here and list every little thing every car manufacturer has ever invented that doesnt instantly mean Saab is the pinnacle of automotive achievement or development. Thats like saying an uncooked egg becomes a mushroom.

Even some of the innovations from Saab listed above include the term 'probably innovated by Saab' which is hardly convincing but in general theres not much groundbreaking there. They did some rewiring to make the lights turn off when you switch the car off, big deal. Thats not as impressive as Mercedes Benz innovating and developing traction control and airbags, the latter especially vital on cars now. MB was the first to put brakes on all four wheels two decades before Saab made their first car.

No firm has done more for automotive safety than Saab's Swedish cousin Volvo. Responsible for inventing the side airbags, 3 point safety belt, rearward facing child seats, seatbelt reminders, side impact protection system etc all things we deem pretty basic now.

What do you class as 'innovation' though? Is Ford's Econetic range innovative? Slightly more efficient diesel engine, car lowered by 2cm's and different gear ratios. I call that fiddling rather than innovation.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

Jamie, nowhere in the list is the term 'probably innovated by Saab'. Anyway, enjoy your Sunday.

BTW

1972: Side Impact Protection - Saab was the first car manufacturer to introduce reinforcement members in the doors, in order to provide side impact protection. Surprisingly enough, the Saab was for many years the only car that offered this added safety.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - Buster Cambelt

Not really true is it? Volvo's link with safety is probbaly 75% marketing and 25% engineering. It became their strapline, reality is that most companies have made great strides in safety, often adapting technologies from other industries like aerospace.

MB has done well, so did BMW, so did SAAB, so did Volvo...... etc...

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - 475TBJ

'Thats not as impressive as Mercedes Benz innovating and developing traction control and airbags.' jamie statement

Mercedes-Benz innovating with airbags is incorrect. GM had them in cars before in the 1970s.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

Bottom line is if Saab were any good they wouldnt of been on the verge of going bust for the last decade. The fact is they dont sell enough cars.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - 475TBJ

"Bottom line is if Saab were any good they wouldnt of been on the verge of going bust for the last decade. The fact is they dont sell enough cars."

GM to blame, they just didn't get Saab. Just like Ford stuffed up with Jaguar........... most of the time.

'Opinions gathered more recently - expensive to buy, very expensive to have serviced/repaired'

Not true - cheap to buy - thanks to heavy depreciation. Serviced at indi not very expensive. Enough rubbish GM parts in some models to keep prices reasonable.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - veryoldbear

Dead right. I have old 2.2tid estate ... it's all GM (mostly Vauxhall and Opel) bits and it's very cheap to keep going. OK, it';s just a posh Vectra estate, but it has character and I like it.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

"but it has character and I like it."

At least GM didn't get rid of the character or prevent the 9-3 (98-03) and 9-5 from being the safest car on the road in Sweden in 2005.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - veryoldbear

The other thing about Saabs is that they don't define you in the way some cars do. You take one look at Beemers or Audis, and they reek of company middle management, Volvos taste strongly of country pursuits or antique dealers, Ford Focuses are handed out out to fleets or lower management ... and possibly George Smiley.

But who drives Saabs? Aha, nobody knows ....

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jamie745

But who drives Saabs?

Nobody. Thats Saab's problem.

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - 475TBJ

"But who drives Saabs? Aha, nobody knows ...."

Yipee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - richardcroft

Here we go again:- Saab's sale to Pang Da and Youngman looks set to be derailed by GM. 'Although General Motors is open to the continued supply of powertrains and other components to Saab under appropriate terms and conditions, GM will not agree to the continuation of the existing technology licenses or the continued supply of 9-4X vehicles to Saab following the proposed change in ownership as it would not be in the best interests of GM shareholders,' GM spokesman Jim Cain told the BBC

Saab - Why should Saab survive? - jc2

You've missed out on their engines-Triumph,Vauxhall and Ford-even the two-stroke was a DKW copy.