Is Diesel a false economy? - jamie745

Ive been wondering this for a while, with fuel prices rising more and more people switching to Diesel cars, indeed for the first time new car sales has had Diesels in the majority in the UK, but is it a false economy?

In almost every case brand new the diesel variant of a car will cost more than its petrol equivalent, even with better fuel economy and lower VED it can take 1-3 years (even on medium-high mileage) to break even and then begin to see profit. Its maybe a bit closer on the used market but differences remain.

Right now on Auto Trader im looking at a 2008 Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec 5dr with Climate Pack, 17k on the clock and its £6485. Shift across to the diesel's for the almost identical car but TDCi instead and the cheapest is £7,995.

Lets work this out. The petrol one will apparently do 42.2mpg on average, so lets call it 40 as its rare cars exactly meet any figures. Meaning for 10,000 miles it'll cost (going by petrol at my local garage at 136.9) will cost £1,556 (give or take a few pence), and in VED band G at £165 a year. Meaning after 12 months its cost £8,206. Ok i know this is never going to be 100% scientific or accurate and yes theres servicing costs and any repairs needed etc but thats the same for both cars, im trying to see the benefit from diesel.

On the Diesel one, im actually comparing this to a 1.8 by the way as theres more of those in this search criteria, with a claimed mpg of 54.2, lets call it 51, to be fair, same difference as the petrol one, with diesel at 139.9, 10,000 miles comes to £1247. And £115 VED bill is also good, but still after 12 months, the Diesel one wouldve cost in total £9,357. More than a grand more.

Two years on and it stacks up at £9927 for the petrol and £10,719 for the Diesel. So still no return with the Diesel. Meaning its gaining on the petrol at around £300 a year just on VED and fuel.

Im not saying people shouldnt buy a diesel, some people prefer them, thats great, but does anyone else here think due to the growing popularity and therefore higher purchase price that diesel is something of a false economy especially for the mid-low range mileage user?

Is Diesel a false economy? - richardcroft

Golf MK4 GTi vs. PD130bhp diesel, c.35mpg vs. c.55mpg the diesel wins, with even as low a mileage as 11,000 per year.

Is Diesel a false economy? - jamie745

Whats interesting is Parkers have made a tool to tell you how long you'll need to own the diesel to make your money back, in most cases the diesel is more expensive and in some cars, for people who own them for three years, they'll never break even on them.

Im sure there are exceptions such as with the Golf, i was asking more generally.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

Back then VWs petrols were c**p and the PD engines were superb. The equation has changed somewhat since petrols have improved and diesels have become MUCH more complex.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

Spot on.

All heavy duty engines are diesels (the concept is sound!), but not all drivers are heavy duty. In fact most of them aren't.

Because peole have to fork out for fuel on a frequent basis they are often overly sensitive to fuel prices (although they are scandalously high compared to liquid fuel used for anything other than driving) and are often tempted to lose a sense of proportion when it comes to trying to reduce this cost.

What is (understandably) not part of your equation, is the cost of a major failure. Low pressure port injection used in petrols is cheap and virtually bullet proof. High pressure multi-pulse direct injection is neither cheap nor bullet proof. This applies to petrols as well as diesel. It'll be interesting to see if how well the direct injection engines fare in extended service.

Is Diesel a false economy? - bathtub tom

I gave up diesels six years ago after a Focus TDDI cost me £1200 for a new injector pump.

I'd diesels for over ten years, but that sort of cost can't compensate for the economy and the satisfying 'grunt' they give.

Is Diesel a false economy? - jamie745

Unthrottled, thats very true as its amazing how often i'll come across people who will be happy to spend thousands on a new car on the basis it does 5mpg more, i try and explain how that economy is offset by the purchase etc but they're not having it.

I think the fact you have to drive to a place with a beaming neon sign stating the price, stand there and look at the price as you fill it up, and then walk in and have someoen tell you the price again, adds to the psychology of the matter.

When purchasing a car on a credit card or whatever, no neon signs, out of sight, out of mind.

Is Diesel a false economy? - WellKnownSid

The biggest variable in the next five years could well be fuel price. Two years ago, petrol was consistently a few cents cheaper than diesel - now it's a good 15 cents above, despite the market in Europe supposedly over-supplied with unleaded.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

If that is true where you live then the duty on diesel must be LESS than on petrol. In fact come to think of it, that is true everywhere else in Europe. However, there is a move to change that as politicians finally realise that, on a volumetric basis, diesel has ~10% more energy than petrol

Is Diesel a false economy? - madf

I can only speak from experience of Yaris diesel.. 7 years old, no issues. Dealers have minimal experience with them - due to their overall reliability..

Only issue seems to be EGR cleaning..and occasional MAF sensor at 100k miles.

If buy a decently engineered diesel not ones cobbled in a gurry or with dubious electronics... (Exclude Mazda of course)

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

100k miles? I thought you only went to the post office once a week in it!

Trust a toyota to work with monotonous reliability.

Is Diesel a false economy? - Reentrant

In today's Telegraph Motoring section HJ says "diesel only really makes sense for drivers doing 20,000 miles a year or more".

Is Diesel a false economy? - davmal

Was motoring ever really about sense? I was, at one time, going to buy a TVR, but they don't do a 1.9D naturally aspirated version ;)

I have diesels because I like the way they drive.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

That is probably the most astute observation so far.

Is Diesel a false economy? - craig-pd130

Same here, I like the instant grunt and relaxed cruising with good punch available. Having had both turbo petrol (Volvo 2.0T) and turbo diesel (Passat PD130 / Mondeo 2.0 TDCI), the turbo petrol was fun but economy was shocking, I was lucky to get over 30mpg on a run.

Also as a company car owner, diesel isn't a false economy for me when it comes to BIK etc. If I did go back to owning my own car, I still believe I'd choose a diesel.

Is Diesel a false economy? - Andy P

I guess it depends if economy is the only reason you look at diesels for. I decided on a 335d beacuse of the combination of perfomance and economy. Find a petrol car with 286bhp that does 39mpg average, and so fat, after 25k, it's not put a tyre wrong.

Is Diesel a false economy? - Buster Cambelt

Fair do's and I no longer drive diesels because I don't like the noise and vibration. Each to his own.

In the business world downtime can cost you thousands more than a few pence extra on fuel, as our recent failed experiment with Skoda proved and will linger on accounts for a while yet.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

Do go on Buster...

Is Diesel a false economy? - Buster Cambelt

If you mean the financials for 11,218 miles over 10 months then that's quite simple:

Fuel for 11218 miles = 1332 litres at cost of £1719 - works out at average cost of around £1.29 per litre and just over 38mpg.

Oil for period of ownership - 8 litres at £17.49 per 2 litres - £70

Insurance for 10 months - £256

Depreciation - £2600

Repairs and servicing - £129

I ought to work in cost of capital and part wear on things like tyres but I'll ignore these as interest rates are so low at the moment and it can get too complicated but it does mean the cost of ownership is understated.

Direct costs for 11,218 miles - £4774.

Direct Cost per mile - 42.55p (probably 50p would be realistic if costs of capital, etc were included).

Indirect costs - we are a service company, time is the most perishable of products. If we lose a day due to general faffing about (e.g. with a car that needs loads of attention) then we never get it back, we can't sell that day again. The Skoda cost me 9 whole days or £7200 in revenue. There were some part days but they've just been absorbed.

Total costs for 11,218 miles - £11974 or about £1.07 a mile before costs of capital and the like are added.

Is Diesel a false economy? - WellKnownSid

But, in reality, you don´t sit around twiddling your thumbs if the car needs attention at the dealer. You get a courtesy car, or worse case call Hertz or Enterprise and get a car delivered for 25 quid per day.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

You'd have thought so, wouldn't you?

And most business days aren't lost., they're postponed. Every time it snows some twerp from the British Retail Consortium bemoans the fact that the British economy has lost £500 million simply because no one went shopping that day. The money hasn't been lost, it'll be spent in the shops at a later date. But then retailers were never the brightest bunch..

Is Diesel a false economy? - Collos25

Totally agree and to think these numptys are running the country.

Is Diesel a false economy? - Roly93

Fairly complex subject actually, but in my attempt to simplify, I would ay the following :-

Small cars up to Fiesta sized, with diesels 1.6 and below, probably not worthwhile unless you are doing massive mileage, in which case you would probably go for a bigger car anyway. Once to get to the Mondeo/Vectra sized car with at least 1.8 petrol engine, there is no doubt that diesel wins the day if you do more than about 12k PA.

I think a lot of the alleged unreliablity issues with earlier CR diesels have been ironed out now, I say alleged as I have just done about 140K miles in 2 diesels with not a peep wrong in any way.

Also, where diesels are good, is that you can potter around town for hours and still not use much fuel, whereas in all but the tiniest of petrol engined cars driving in heavy traffic or traffic jams sucks fuel badly.

Dont forget that a used diesel will almost always hold its value better than the petrol equivalent too.

Is Diesel a false economy? - nortones2

To echo Roly93, depreciation is the biggest money-sink of all. Working out ppm is quite difficult, as the future rate of depreciation is guesswork to an extent. Then to compare petrol or diesel examples with differing appeal in future years makes for further uncertainty. So far as I can tell they end up costing much the same!

Is Diesel a false economy? - primeradriver

Depreciation is a double-edged sword though -- if buying used you'd be wise to play depreciation to your own advantage. All cars depreciate to zero eventually, generally at around 13 years old. Petrols simply do most of the depreciating in the first three years, diesels even it out over the car's lifespan.

Is Diesel a false economy? - madf

Depreciation?

Bought Yaris d4d when 2.5 years old for £6500. (List price then c £11,000).

5 Years later it's worth retial around £4,000.

Depreciation: £2500 over 5 years: £500pa..

What's gone wrong?

New front disks and pads. £90

New front anti roll bar bushes.. £20

err.. that's all...

Averaged 58mpg overall.

£30 tax.

Insurance under £200...

Edited by madf on 29/05/2011 at 16:57

Is Diesel a false economy? - corax

Bought Yaris d4d when 2.5 years old for £6500. (List price then c £11,000).

5 Years later it's worth retial around £4,000.

For cheap motoring, they are excellent cars. And one of the more reliable common rail diesels. I don't know why Toyota haven't managed to achieve the same with the larger engined models.

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

It is very, very good. But a number of people have had expensive problems with injectors, HP pumps, DMF etc. and you only need one expensve fault to negate the benefit in fuel economy. Sometimes for someone with limited savings it might make more sense to accept a higher marginal cost of motoring in return for the certainty of not facing a big bill.

Is Diesel a false economy? - madf

Yaris does not have DMF.

You can buy complete engines (incl all ancillaries - with low miles ) for under £1200. on ebay. There is virtually zero demand due to reliability.

Reading this thread one would think all diesels are unreliable. They are not.. Most problems are due to buying the wrong car (Mazda or Renault anyone?) or driver abuse (misfuelling).

Is Diesel a false economy? - unthrottled

VW diesel injectors?

Why are Renault bad but not Nissan?

Not many people are in a position to buy an engine and install it themselves. There is considerable labour involved. I love diesel engines.Used properly, they tend to be reliable. But they are not for everyone. I don't understand why anyone doing an annual mileage of 8000 miles would buy one.

Is Diesel a false economy? - primeradriver

The dCi Nissans are bad as well. Look at the X-Trail diesel. Nasty.

Normally-aspirated petrol engines are harder to get wrong. So less risk.

Yes, some diesels are very good, but I'm still not sure I'd take the risk if money-saving was my aim.

Is Diesel a false economy? - richardcroft

From my experience a pre or PD diesel VAG engine car has been cheaper to run than petrol counterpart. with plenty of ££ saved.

Is Diesel a false economy? - madf

The dCi Nissans are bad as well. Look at the X-Trail diesel. Nasty.

Normally-aspirated petrol engines are harder to get wrong. So less risk.

Yes, some diesels are very good, but I'm still not sure I'd take the risk if money-saving was my aim.

Anyone buying a Renault or any car with a Renault engine ( As Nissan diesels are), and expecting Japanese relaibility ... needs a reality check.

Is Diesel a false economy? - John F

Depreciation?

....is certainly most people's main expense and to be minimised unless someone else is paying for the car

1980TR7 bought 1981 £4250, value now ?£3000 depreciation £40 pa

1998Audi A6 bought 2003 £8000, " ?£3000 depreciation £625 pa

2000Focus " 2003 £7000 " ?£2000 "

all running well, no big repairs.......buy the best and make'm last!