peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? | Technical matters | Back Room Forum

Mon 25 Apr 2011 04:20

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

I'm no mechanic but I've had a go at taking the cylinder head off for a possible repair.

Woulld anyone be good enough to advise whether it's worth me spending £200 for a skim and parts etc, or is it for the scrapper.

Any ideas or tips would be appreciated.

I can't understand why the gasket looks okayish,

does this indicate a warped head or engine block problems?

The original problem was exhaust gases pressuring the coolant system even when cold,

as can be seen here.. www.youtube.com/user/TheLoonyl#p/a/u/2/jqMa85d0hqg

also, first thing in the morning it took a while to start, with smoke out the back,

after it had started , it was fine all day.

I've taken the gasket off, there are no breakages or holes etc,

but there are a few raised bits of the gasket.

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

Are these normal?

The cylinder walls have a centimeter of roughness/gunk at the top of them,

and there is a bit of rust in 2 of them,

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

On the valves there's a fair bit of gunk

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

and a little chunk missing between the valves

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

There's lots more pictures here

s103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010/

The most I've done before this, is changing a wheel, so I may just put it down to experience..

It has been a very enjoyable time tinkering and learning things tho'

What do you think?

Many Thanks

Liam

Edited by liammcl on 25/04/2011 at 04:22

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 15:47

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - Peter.N.

You certainly had pressurisation of the cooling system, the head gasket is the most common cause but occaisionally you can get a cracked head, the ammount of gas present would though point to the gasket.

To cause your problem, any leakage would be from the piston/valve area to a water way, if you look carefully at the hasket you will likely see dark areas where the combustion gasses have been leaking, you very rarely have holes in the gasket although I have seen it happen.

I would think that if you have the surface of the head machined and fit a new gasket it will be OK, the heads can warp, especially if they have been overheated at some time, the engineering firm that does the job will tell you how distorted the head it, you can also have it pressure tested but I think that is fairly expensive.

Use a laminated steel gasket if you can find one, they seem to be more durable, although I doubt if it will go again in the lifetime of the car, they are usually good for about 150,000 miles.

Well done for having a go.

Peter

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 16:55

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - 659FBE

I also admire your enterprise.

These are excellent engines and are perfectly fixable - but you must work carefully. I've only looked at the odd picture, but your facilities are limited so you must exercise extra care to succeed.

The cylinder head requires skimming - the pitting between valves is not acceptable.

Find the flywheel locking hole and lock the crank at TDC. You've obviously found the cam lock - the injection pump needs a 6 mm drill shank. You don't need white marks on the belt.

This engine has been run without coolant corrosion inhibitor/antifreeze. Use the genuine PSA coolant at 50% strength. Change the water pump.

You will have fuel system problems if you leave injectors dismantled and open to dirt. Flush carefully and place in sealed poly bags. Plug all fuel pipe openings.

Make absolutely sure you understand the cambelt setting procedure which involves locking the engine and tensioning the belt with the 6 cam sprocket and inkection sprocket bolts loose. The belt should just twist by 45 deg between the two large wheels.

Go very carefully - and the best of luck.

659.

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 18:09

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Many thanks 659FBE

I'm off now to put some cling film over the pipes in the car.

A question about locking the flwheel / crankshaft.

I've found the locking hole but a 6mm bolt will only go in 1.5cm

I turned the engine by hand when the timing belt was still on but couldn't get a smaller drill bit in any further.

would it be okay to take the locking screw out of the flywheel,
so I could turn the crankshaft and the pistons to clean/check them.

I've made a mark with tipex on the crankshaft pulley & I'll remember that it turns twice for one turn on the camshaft.

If it is ok to rotate the pistons?, and what sort of cleaner could I use inside the cylinders to remove the gunk?
(there is roughness at the top 1cm of both visible cylinders, ....I don't know if this means anything?)

Thanks again

Liam

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 18:02

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Many Thanks Peter,

Here's the pictures of the head gasket.

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

is this pretty clean?

could it be a cracked cylinder ?

I'm planning to get the head skimmed Tue/wed this week.

(I didn't realise they skimmed between the valves too )

Other options....

A botchit would be a new gasket & skim = £65

The full works would be £200 including a water pump etc

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 19:00

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - Peter.N.

In the first picture it looks as though it has possibly been blowing between the two right hand cylinders and to the water hole between them, below. Its difficult to tell without it in front of me but that area looks suspicious.

Peter

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 19:59

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - 659FBE

The flywheel locking hole takes a 6 mm rod - which is generally a very tight fit. I use a short piece of M6 studding (there's not a lot of room) with a slight "nose" ground onto the threads at the tip.

Push your locking stud with one finger pressure as you rotate the engine. At TDC the stud will engage in the hole in the flywheel with a definite "click" and the crank will be locked solid. There is only one hole in the flywheel.

To clean the bores, I would recommend a new "Scotchbrite" pan scourer soaked in clean engine oil. Leave the bores wiped clean and oily when you have finished.

659.

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 20:03

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks again 659FBE

I'll give it a go ...

Cheers for the replies guys

All the best

Liam

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Tue 26 Apr 2011 13:33

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - Robin the Technician

Hi,

Some impressive pictures. I think the gasket is on its last legs - but the part that needs looking at in more detail is shown in picture 48. It shows bad pitting between two vales - clearly where water could get into the cylinders. hopefully it should skim out ok. Bear in mind that the head gasket has a code on the end tab which tells you how thick it is and if you're having it skimmed the amount taken off needs to be added to it. The people doing the skimming should be able to advise toy - a good idea would be to take the old gasket with the head so they can advise you on the correct gasket.

Good luck with the repairs - you have gone about doing the job in a methodical way - and taking lots of photo's helps us advisors to help you.

Let us know how it all goes.

Robin the Technician

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Mon 25 Apr 2011 20:00

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks again Peter

I'll bring it in and get it skimmed....

even if it doesn't work, it'll be an experience & character building :)

Cheers

Liam

ps here's some detailed pics

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

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Tue 26 Apr 2011 00:09

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - Peter.N.

That's much better! Definite leakage between the two end cylinders although it looks worse at the top water hole than the bottom one, there are signs of carbon on the edge of the cylinder seals.. You will likely find that the head is slightly low at that point.

Peter

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Tue 26 Apr 2011 14:02

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

The pitting in the valve bridge is in a recessed area so a head skim is not going to remove it. Unless the head is warped, I'd be inclined to forgo the head skim as it would likely be an expensive waste of money. I've never bothered skimming heads and not had any problems with long term sealing.

Be careful with cleaning cylinder bores. The bores are honed to leave a rough finish which is essential to holding a film of oil. It would be easy to inadvertantly 'polish' the bores smooth and end up with rapid ring wear and subsequent loss of compression. Remove the worst of the surface rust on the bores and leave it at that. Diesel combustion chambers are dirty places, there's no point making them nice and shiny. They'll be dirty again as soon as the engine is restarted!

Obviously torque-to-yield bolts can't be reused.

Hope the project is going well!

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Tue 26 Apr 2011 14:28

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks Peter,

I've been to a few mechanics to ask what they thought.

All agreed the pitting between the valves is a bit of a worry

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

The engineer at the skimming place said it was "borderline" whether it'd be ok.

He looked into the the inlet pipes

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

and from left to right

(See all the rust at the top)
i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

So maybe, I'll just skim and get a new gasket all in for £55.

I don't know at the moment wether the bolts are stretch ones.

if so, I'll probably not bother doing anything....

and just use the car as a learning exercise.

Next on the list is the clutch or gearbox

Honestly, I shouldn't be let near spanners :)

Thanks all

Liam

*edit*

ps Thanks 659FBE , I found the locking holes.

The bolt for the flywheel just needed tapering at the end as you said.

Cheers

Edited by liammcl on 26/04/2011 at 14:40

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Tue 26 Apr 2011 16:15

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - 659FBE

The head pitting between the valves is not in a recessed area - this is an IDI diesel.

You need to get this out with a skim - I would not regard it as "marginal". This is a diesel engine with higher peak cylinder pressures than a petrol engine.

I think much of your trouble arises from the use of a non-inhibited coolant in conjunction with a steel head gasket. The engine is not irretrievable, but the proper coolant must be used following a rebuild. I recommend deionised or rain water as a dilutant.

Check the piston protrusion and original head gasket thickness (usually identified by notches or holes) in order to make your selection of new gasket thickness. Small changes here will affect the compression ratio significantly.

If the head bolts are torque to yield, I would recommend a new set - I know it's more cost but don't spoil the ship...

659.

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Tue 26 Apr 2011 23:48

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

Unless the light is playing tricks, the valve bridge looks recessed to me-and hence won't be affected by a skim. The skim will clean up the contact faces but not much else. Any serious deviation from a straight edge would need the head to be straightened (expensive).

The pitting is obviously undesirable but unless it develops to the point where it affects valve sealing it's not that much of a worry. The valve bridge area is quite generous in that head and minor pitting shouldn't affect performance of the main chamber. The 'hot action' takes place well away from the valve bridge in an IDI-the valve bridge running much cooler than in a DI diesel or a petrol engine. The pre-chamber is much more of a concern and probably hides some nasty surprises-thankfully out of sight!

Getting a nice even clamping force on the head/gasket interface is the most important factor.

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Wed 27 Apr 2011 00:29

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks guys,

Unfortunately the pitting will not come out with a skim because it is recessed.

BUT, as (un)luck would have it,

my other car, an Astra 1.4 16v petrol, blew up on the motorway tonight,

so the rebuild of the 106 may have to wait....

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

The breakdown thought it could be a hole in the block.

Oh the joys ...

I'm off to see what I can get for £600 tomorrow,

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Wed 27 Apr 2011 01:24

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

It never rains but it pours. What rotten luck.

Surely the breakdown can give a less equivical diagnosis than that-holes don't just appear in blocks-unless a rod has made a bid for freedom.

What happened?

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Wed 27 Apr 2011 02:12

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Hi Unthrottled,

I was pootling along at 70 when it seemed like I went over something wooden.

I say wooden because there was a gentle knock rather than a massive bang of metal on metal..

the car was smoking but nowhere near as much smoke as a blown gasket.

When the car was stationery and turned off , oil started to dribble out slowly.

The breakdown guy initially thought the fuel filter may have come loose because of the amount of oil, but when it hadn't he had a closer look & saw that the oil originated from the middle back of the engine

As he said there is nothing there that could do it, it was probably a valve through the block.

I've just been out now and took some pics from under the car.

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

The black plastic? cylinder is very loose where it connects to the grey housing, there is a 2mm gap there.

I wonder if the oil could? be originating from there?

Again, I'll have a look in the daylight, but there seems to be a circular hole in the first picture and a broken? golden strut (bottom middle)

I don't know if it's relevant but the starter motor just clicks now.

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Wed 27 Apr 2011 04:21

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

Hmm.

Do you mean when you try to crank the engine, the starter motor just clicks (sounds like the relay)?

You'd be very unlucky for a valve to go through the block. I can't orientate my way round the engine from the pictures-is the rubber gaiter in the photos the inner CV joint for the driveshaft? If so, we're right at the bottom of the engine, no way a valve could exit the block down there!

I wonder if the oil pump failed catastrophically. If engine oil dripped/squirted on to a hot component like the exhaust downpipe it would smoke vigorously-a little oil can create a lot of smoke.

The loss of oil pressure may have led to a partial seizure of the engine-hence why the starter just clicks. This all sounds awful, but it might be at least partially recoverable. Even if the engine suffered wiped main bearings and scored cylinder liners, it is usually possible to dose them up with 20W 50 oil and limp them on for a few thousand more miles. Obviously less than ideal, but still gets you round.

Hoping for the best

Unthrottled

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Wed 27 Apr 2011 18:32

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks for the good wishes Unthrottled but alas all is not good.

I had a look in daylight and found the hole in the sump straight away,

mainly because daylight was passing right through it.

Now, as you know, I'm no mechanic :) but I thought that's not right !

I dunno what's gone on there?

Here's the front of the car

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

and here's the bigger hole at the back of the sump

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

What do you think?

Is it probably dead?

Cheers

Liam

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Wed 27 Apr 2011 18:56

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

Good Heavens! Something truely catastrophic happened inside that engine. Big end of a rod separated from the small end or something like that. Very, very unlucky. GM engines are pretty good.

I think it is safe to assume that it is dead I'm afraid. Scored liners/wiped bearings from oil starvation are one thing, but this looks like major mechanical failure.

You an get replacement engines, but now you probably don't have a car to pick one up, or hire a hoist or anything. You deserve a break when it comes to picking another car. Really sorry to hear this tale-I hoped you'd be firing up the pug by now...

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Thu 28 Apr 2011 01:34

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks unthrottled,

I'll try and get the water pump off the peuget 106 tomorrow

and depending how that goes, I'll get the head pressure tested and skimmed.

I'm getting around using a moped at the moment, so far it's been fine with the good weather.

Thanks for everyones advice and help

Liam

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Thu 28 Apr 2011 11:21

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - 659FBE

The water pumps on the TUD5 engine sometimes stick fairly hard in the block and the access is not too good.

If you have problems getting it out, apply here for a method...

Best of luck.

659.

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Thu 28 Apr 2011 15:09

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks 659,

It was tricky indeed!

After 2 hours , I went in via the back.

Taking the starter motor gave extra room to get my hammer in.

Tho' a 10mm spanner I pushed in the back to knock the pump out got stuck *doh*

Such is life :)

All is good now, it took 10 mins knocking it out through the back with a long screwdriver.

There were a few dried rust flakes in the pipes that connect the water pump at the back.

All, in all, again very enjoyable. (if you disregard the cussing :) )

I brought the head to the skimmers but they are shut till next week.

Cheers

Liam

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Thu 28 Apr 2011 22:30

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - PETER 4768

The head needs to be pressure tested before you do anything else, a skim with out a proper test on the head is an absolute waste of money, most likely scenario with your symptoms is a cracked head.

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Fri 29 Apr 2011 00:59

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Thanks enginecentre,

I am going to get a pressure test first and then skimmed & buy the gasket etc if all is ok.

You've just reminded me to ring some scrappers to see how much engine heads are.

Round here near Manchester, there's one road in Bury with about 6 scrapyards next to each other !

I'm wondering whether to get another 106 or saxo and use this one for spares,

or sell bits on ebay...

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Sun 1 May 2011 22:11

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

A quick post for unthrottled,

It was somerthing major as you said, and it was to do with the rods.

This is how they should look ( as you know :) )

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

but this is one is at 90 degrees..

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

It was interesting to see where the oil starts it's journey around the engine from ..

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/2010...g

ah well, it lasted 4 months....

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Mon 2 May 2011 03:22

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

What a baptism of fire you've suffered-you could have expected a more gentle learning curve. From the pictures it looks like a con rod has completely snapped-catastrophic mechanical failure is actually quite rare nowadays-unless something silly happens-such as an engine running without oil.

Thanks for the photo journal you've dilligently kept-The images really are informative.

Really hope you get a lucky break on a replacement for the Astra. (Now i'm starting to panic about sudden failure of my engine!)

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Mon 2 May 2011 20:48

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - liammcl

Cheers unthrottled.

I wouldn't worry too much about it mate because I seem to have a thing about cars and engines at the moment !

This was the car before the peugeot, an astra 1.7 diesel with the reliable? isuzu engine,

In Nov last year , it revved in the redlined for no reason even with the engine turned off !

I thought it was going to explode.

Afterward, it rans for another 3000 miles without any repairs.

i103.photobucket.com/albums/m147/liammcl_2006/DSC0...g

I should be a car tester ;)

Till next time....

Thanks for all the help, people !

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Mon 2 May 2011 20:59

peugeot 106 1.5 diesel - Does this head gasket look ok? - unthrottled

Classic diesel runaway-engine begins to run on its own oil-probably from a leaking oil seal in the turbo. The only way to 'kill a runaway' is to stuff a rag/shirt into the air intake to starve it of air-you'll know for next time!

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