kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

Ive just swapped an engine in a Kia Sedon 2.9 CRDi, 2004 reg. Everything is in and seems fine, good compression, good fuel prssure, strong battery etc. problem is the injectors arent opening. They are the originial injectors in the original locations so its not a coding issue. I have had a noid light in the injector wiring plugs and there is nothing at all. My autodata doesnt have a wiring diagram for this vehicle so I am struggling with basic checks.

The cam sensor has a 3 pin plug on the ecu side unplugged with 5 volts at 2 of the terminals and one to earth which seems odd.

The crankshaft sensor has a 3 pin plug with pin 2 going to earth and nothing on the other 2.

Reading around the internet there is some confusion if there should be 5 volts at this sensor? If so then which pin?

If anyone has a wiring diagram I would very ,much appreciate a copy or some assistance with what feeds I should have where.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Often one pin is earth as it is the screen for the twisted pair screened cable. Cam sensors are often hall efect devices and there is a voltage feed to the device. Assuming the crank sensor used the fly whhel then they often use an induction sensor so you should bee the resistance of the coil. I would also comment that a engine will often run with a faulty cam sensor but non run with a faulty crank sensor. Measure the resistance of the crank sensor and report back I would expect a value between 1000 and 2500 ohms.

Having said all that, how does the immobiliser function on this vehicle. Many have a coded Injector pump and/or ECU so you can not changew the engine witout recoding the immobilser. Regards Peter

Edited by Peter D on 05/02/2011 at 16:21

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

My customer bought it off the internet with a faulty engine, advised bottom end failure due to oil starvation. They rang me I quoted for an engine minus pump injectors and turbo. Their car then got delivered with engine and autobox in the rear of the car all still built up, crank sensor was broken though. I got one from the donor vehicle the engine came from. Ive swapped everything over from the old engine onto the new one and its all been done with new belts and tensioners etc. All are timed correctly and verified. The donor vehicle came in with no pump or injectors as they had been removed and tested and found faulty after fuel contamination. Will check resistances and post back.

thanks

PS, which pins should show resistance? Im guessing 1 and 3 with 2 being a shield wire to earth?

Edited by track on 05/02/2011 at 16:24

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Yes correct, not the earth pin. I assume CRDi means common rail, mind you, you are using the original pump. Bit odd that the one main thing that could cause this is the crank sensor which was broken on the donor engine. Are you sure the two are compatible. You may wish to check the CPS part number with the vin number at the dealership. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

I am thinking possibly just put a new sensor in first and see if it helps. It cant hurt after all!!

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

If you have one then try it. Is the vehicle you are reparing also an automatic. Is the crank postion sensor mounted on the block or the gearbox. I ask this as you mentioned donor and had an autobox. Ithere perchance a difference in the flywheel/torque convertor. You had better check down the sensor hole that you can clearly see the teeth. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

I have checked up on some hall effect cam sensors and they have a power feed to one pin and often have a pull up resistor associated to the signal side so you may see +5v on both sides. I assume you have tried the Kia forum's. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Having the day off then are we. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track
Sorry for the delay in response, had a few other matters to attend to.
Yes both vehicles, this one and the donor were 04 autos with the same auto gearbox and parts. the torque converter was swapped over with the corresponding autobox. the sensor was actually taken off an earlier 2.9 sedona with the direct injection engine. It was the only one to hand. I couldnt find a part number on them to compare but physically they were identical. I have spoken to my customer and they are going to Kia tomorrow to buy a new sensor for their car. Hopefully this will solve the problem. Ive tried searching the net for part numbers but cant clarify if the 2 sensors are different.
Strange thing is there are no fault codes stored. I would of expected something given the amount Ive cranked the engine, also the tachometer registers engine speed OK.

Edited by track on 06/02/2011 at 13:18

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Is the rev counter driven from that sensor (ecu) or is there the extra wire to alternator for the tacho signal. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track
no idea where the rev counter is driven from. Alternator has a 3 wire multiplug if I remember rightly as well as the main 12v wire.
The sensor is around 900 ohms between pins 2 and 3, or 2 and 1 depends which way you count, cant see the pin numbers on the plug.
Got a supposedly new sensor today, but the turns out the customer bought it from a japanese specialist breakers, supposedly new but has no box etc, cannot be returned and the guy was thick as custard that dealt with her. he rang me and I had to explain what engine it was about 5 times!! No confidence its the right one!!
kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Oooops

Edited by Peter D on 07/02/2011 at 15:49

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

900 is good to go. Are you telling me the old sensor read 900 or the new one. ? A 3 wire alternator connection implies to me that the rev counter is taken from the alternator. Remove the small plug and crank it, does the rev counter register, I suspect not. I had this on a Range Rover recently.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

both sesnors are within 10 ohms of each other. But I think its the wrong sensor. They both have resistance between earth and another pin. Surely the earth should not have any resistance, it should be between the other 2 pins?

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

How much resistance. ? Some have a bleed resister for diagnostic purposes to establish the sensor is connected even if the pick up is open circuit. Regards Peter

Edited by Peter D on 07/02/2011 at 20:07

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

both have aorund 900 between earth and pin 3. Nothing between any others. Sorry I think I made that a little confusing with the last post.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

No probs. So why does she not fire up. ??

Do you have a scope, or try a meter on the 2 volt AC range and measure the output. You nominally get 1 to 2 volts form the sensor when cranking.

Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track
Im puzzle why it doesnt start. Im still stuck with is the sensor the wrong or right one? Wish it wasnt auto so I could drag it about and see if it will go. i suspect not as there doesnt seem to be any life at the injectors.
Ive registered with kia tech website but there is no wiring diagrams anywhere for this car.
kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - elekie&a/c doctor

This car uses a variation of the bosch Cr/edc system.The cam sensor is a hall effect device which should have a 5 volt supply to pin 1 of the connector.This gives a square wave output when scoped.The crank sensor is a magnetic impulse device and gives a sine wave output.Hope this makes sense.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Quite often these sensors have a sheild around the the two sensor signal wires but it is only connected at the ecu end to shield the signal but avoid earth loops.

Can you optain the ECU c***ector diagram to ensure the cacble run harness is not damaged, or do you have diagnostic equiement to see the 'live' date.

Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Check on the spare flywheel if there is a TDC tooth missing or a magnetic insert, If this is not apparent then may be the cam sensor is more important when we thing. Have you tried the other spare sensor. Rergards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

I will check the other flywheel about the sensor pick up location. From memory it is a 60 tooth pick up with 2 missing. Definatley no live feed with the sensor and does have a shield wire. I only get resistance between the shield and 1 other wire. Ive tried the other sensor but I think its the wrong sensor. Awaiting confirmation of part numbers off kia today. Ive ahd a diagnostics plugged in, there are no codes stored, wont let me see live data. It says service not supported. There is another diagnostic plug under the bonnet though, its a strange shape and nobody seems to have a lead for it that I can get my hands on. I suspect if I get access through this plug I will get more info and possibly pick up a fault code that may be preventing things from working.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Crank PS usually are not Hall effects so do not have a power feed. Did you try swopping over the cam sensor. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

With the cam sensor connected back probe the connector and try and detect the pulse which may be TDC no 1. Without this a Di engine may not fire up. Ideally you need an LED pulse detector but you may see it on a meter voltage range. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

its not Di its a common rail. I dont have a spare cam sensor as it was already gone off the donor engine. Ive had noid lights in the injector plugs and theres nothing. A multimeter shows around 2 volts at the terminals so they do have continuity in the wires etc. Kia will have a brand new genuine crank sensor at lunchtime tomorrow. Fingers crossed that resolves the issue. Failing that its going to a local pump and injector specialist to have the fueling system tested properly.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Yes it is, it is a CRDi a coomon rail 'direct injection'

No you get a pulse from the cam sensor when cranking.

Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

I cant get the diagnostic to access that when cranking and dont have an oscilloscope to use.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

You may see the pulse by back probing the connector with a meter, via sudden change in the voltage whilst cranking. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Any Progress. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

So is it up and running and what was the fault. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

sorry not been online. The new sensor from Kia was a different number on top and measured 400 ohm where the others measured 900. Put this in and still no injectors but I do get voltage at the injectors now. So I took one injector out and took it for testing. Seized solid. The upshot I think is the injectors need an overhaul so they are definatly capable of injecting then I can make headway. I have now left the vehicle at a different garage who hve specialist equipment to remove the injectors, 2 of them are very much seized in the head.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

Specialist equipment couldnt movbe the injectors either. Now in the process of swapping the heads.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

The 12 volt feed has nothing to do this the sensor the ECU powers the injectors up and control pules are down to ground so the Noid light should have shown this even with seized injectors. Has the car been run on chip shop bio diesel. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

No idea what fuel has been through the car. It does smell suspect, kind of like white spirit. Im thinking a homebrew fuel has been in at some point.

I'll be replacing the head in the next day or two when the new head set comes. Im completley overhauling the head except for guides while its out of the car. Also plan on draining the fuel tank and putting 20 litres of fresh diesel in it with a new fuel filter.

When its all built back up its getting took to a diesel specialist round the corner from my garage as they overhauled the injectors, they are then programming the injectors in. Fingers crossed it will the fire up, if not they should hopefully be able to see why not with their equipment plugged in.

Gutted for my customers now, what should of been a 2 day engine swap is now 5 weeks late, around £600 over budget (not in my pocket though) and still not running!! Hard lesson to learn for them, dont buy a car over the internet without viewing it and doing some research beforehand.

Edited by track on 20/02/2011 at 15:11

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

after all the battles eith this one, 4 recon injectors and fresh fuel and filter it drove away.

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - Peter D

Thank god for that, you must have been pulling your hair out. I blame the chip shops. Regards Peter

kia sedona - No pulse on injectors with 2.9 CRDi sedona 2004 - track

yeah it was a big relief. The first day the injectors went in it would only fire on one cylinder. the diesel specialists tried blaming all sorts instead of the injectors they overhauled. Eventually they agrred to restest the injectors and sure enough 3 had locked up again. guess they were stoiod dry after the rebuild. they sorted them FOC as expected and it fired up.

Think I probably lost a lot of money on that job given the work I had to turn away due to space. Still thats the car game!!