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Does anyone have any favourite examples of good or bad car design? My least favourite one at the moment is the design of the fog light controls on my Saab 9000. There are separate buttons for front and back lights. Why would anyone ever want to turn on one without the other? On top of that, one button pushes in and lights up a dashboard indicator, whereas the other button lights itself up and returns to its former position. To see whether this light is on it is then necessary to look at the button, which is of course nicely hidden by a combination of the steering wheel, wiper stalk and my right arm. Finally, when the engine is switched off, this second button turns itself off, while the other one stays on for next time! Can anyone beat that lot for design hopelessness?
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Fog lights...front and back. Why would anyone ever want to turn on one without the other?
IMHO, Front fogs are there to help you see where you're going; therefore you don't need them on in daylight - only when dark. Headlights (on dipped beam) should be sufficient for others to see you in daylight)
Rear fogs are to help others to see you when approaching from behind, and should be used both in daylight and at night.
PLEASE NOTE: All of the above only apply when foggy, when visibilty is less than 100yds, and when no one is directly behind you.
(I have a feeling this thread will get moved to the discussion side)
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of course they should be separate buttons.
Last week, as an example, I was driving through a real pea souper, at about jogging pace, out in the sticks. I had headlights off to reduce glare, and front and rear fogs on. When I was caught over a period of time by another car, I switched the rear fogs off to give him a chance of not being blinded, and when we got to the next town, I switched the front fogs off too.
Back to the thread: Peugeot 306 1.8i 8 valve - 45 minutes fiddling to get the combined air box and rocker cover out from underneath the brake master cylinder, which in turn exposes all the rocker gear, which in turn was only necessary to pass a new clutch cable through the bulk head. Total job time was over two hours, of which removing old, and fitting new, clutch cable was about ten minutes. Oh yes, the battery, and holder, and ECU, and... and... and... all had to come out too! The only reason the clutch cable was being replaced was in turn because of poor design that causes the lubricant on RHD cables to dry out because of exhaust manifold proximity, and the self adjuster to stop working.
/Steve
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Good design - Vauxhall Cavalier/Astra clutch assembly. Change the clutch in 30 minutes with a couple of spanners and £10 worth of special tools. Such a good idea, they abandoned it.....
More good design - VW combined headlight/foglight switch - you can't leave your foglights on all summer by mistake. Should be compulsory.
Bad design - VW combined screenwash / flick wipe. You can't operate the screenwasher without activating the wipers. If it's winter and the washer jets have frozen up, trying to clean the screen will just stop you from seeing anything through it at all. Should be illegal.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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I came sooooooooooooooooo close to writing in my previous post "How long before Vauxhall clutch replacement post Cavvy makes an appearance?" because it was *that* predictable ! ;-))
/Steve
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Good design: Saab sun visors. Swivel one round to the side and there is another one underneath that so you can be shielded from front and side.
Bad design: Ford "self adjusting" rear drum brakes on the Atlas axled models, and others aaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh"
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All the cars sold to women, which allow skirts and dresses to get trapped in the door!
Both good and bad - the key lock on older nissans. Find the hidden button to release the key from the ignition.
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Bad design - VW combined screenwash / flick wipe. You can't operate the screenwasher without activating the wipers.
I presume that this is on the rear windscreen - if so whole heartedly agree with you cos it annoys me wasting the screen wash unnecessarily.
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>> Bad design - VW combined screenwash / flick wipe. You >> can't operate the screenwasher without activating the wipers. I presume that this is on the rear windscreen - if so whole heartedly agree with you cos it annoys me wasting the screen wash unnecessarily.
No, I was talking about the front screen, where you can't just test whether the washer is working or has frozen up, without setting off the wipers. Rear screen the other way round, when you just want the wiper, you end up activating the washer as well. But add it to the list, together with the VW/Audi rear wiper system of 'flick stalk once for on, again for off'.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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No, I was talking about the front screen, where you can't just test whether the washer is working or has frozen up, without setting off the wipers.
That's not a VW specific thing though is it? I don't think I've come across a car where you can operate the washer without the wipers too.
Darned annoying having the wipers moving when you're trying to realign a washer nozzle. The tiniest squirt of washer fluid misses the screen to start with, then the wiper blades scrubs over all the dead flies on the dry windscreen half a dozen times.
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Rover 800
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Down the local garage last week. Mechanic complaining that it takes 2 hours to strip the trim from the boot so that you can then spend 10 minutes changing the rear shocks. Most sensible cars have a little flap over the top mounting nuts.
I asked if the 800 was as bad as its reputation. It seems that it is much worse. I cannot quote his exact words, little ears may be listening.>> Rover 800
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My Volvo 760 (and maybe newer Volvos?) has a separate function for wash and wipe. Also the washer jets are diagonally set up - each jet shoots water onto both sides of the screen so even if one jet is out of action, the other jet provides water to that half of the screen. So simple but brilliant, obviously developed to cope with harsh Swedish winters.
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it annoys me wastingthe screen wash unnecessarily.
!!!! tight as a ducks what?
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AB-SOL-UTELY! I cannot, cannot understand why the linked wash/wipe has become universal; no matter how much (quality) screen additive you add, the washers will freeze (despite heated jets), making early morning motorway journeys perilous with the very salty road spray!
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>>...when visibilty is less than 100yds>>
I might be wrong, but I thought the distance involved was 100 metres?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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IMHO, Front fogs are there to help you see where you're going; therefore you don't need them on in daylight - only when dark. Headlights (on dipped beam) should be sufficient for others to see you in daylight) Rear fogs are to help others to see you when approaching from behind, and should be used both in daylight and at night.
I agree. So why my Focus is wired so that you can't have the rear fog lights on without the front I'll never know.
--
L\'escargot.
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Bad design
Steering locks hidden in the darkest unlit recesses under the column with the result that it takes half a minute or more to get the key in the hole in the dark, or else you have to carry a torch in the door pocket to see what you are doing.
Could not the keyhole be lit when you turn the lights on in the same way as the fag lighter, radio, electric window switches, immobiliser etc, none of which are much use until you can get the bl**dy key in!
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Steering locks hidden in the darkest unlit recesses under the column Could not the keyhole be lit when you turn the lights on
Far simpler if it illuminated from the door pin switch, like some Rovers.
Never ceases to amaze me the first thing people do when the get in the car is to turn on the lights, then try and start the car and wonder why the engine turns over sluggishly.
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Bad - Pug spare wheel, which necessitates buying an expensive security lock to stop it being pinched
Bad - Elbow room on a Land Rover as well as there being no legroom (at least on the 110) for back passengers
Bad - Most saloons don't have a rear wiper (cos obviously doesn't rain on saloons)
Good - Auto-dim rear view mirror stops me being dazzled by fog light and xenon users
Good - the 2 little "spot" lights in a BMW 5 that lightly illuminate the interior of the car when headlights are on. Gives a really nice warm feeling and worth buying the car just for them
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Bad - Elbow room on a Land Rover
But that's so when you're off road you can see to the side and know exactly where your wheels are. I take the door top off the light weight as well.
Or don't you have those sort of problems in Tesco's car park?
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Good design. On my Toyota Masterace, where the ignition switch is illuminated, for about thirty seconds, after the drivers door is opened, where the screen washer can be operated, independant of the wipers, where a low volume sonic warning indicates that road speed is near the national maximum. I could go on but, space will not permit.
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Going back a bit, the headlights and sidelights on the Pug.305 could be removed for bulb replacement within 30 secs. of opening the bonnet, without any tools being used.
Also, same car, the rear suspension is mounted horizontally under the floor, leaving the laodspace unencumbered with shock absorber mounts which added another ten inches to the usable width.(Same layout on the Pug. Partner,Citroen Berlingo and Renault Kangoo, I think)
P.
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Pug 205 has an adjuster nut on the alternator so you can tension the alt. belt easily.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Pug 205 has an adjuster nut on the alternator so you can tension the alt. belt easily.
But you need three different size spanners to do it. Only the French.....
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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>> Pug 205 has an adjuster nut on the alternator so you >> can tension the alt. belt easily. >> But you need three different size spanners to do it. Only the French.....
Now the locost. That's a good idea.
How's yours?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Now the locost. That's a good idea. How's yours? --
Toad, please don't embarrass me in public like that. I have to confess that since I moved house in July, I haven't touched it. And until I sort out the mess left by the tenants from hell who occupied the place before I bought it, the Locost will just have to sit in the garage, unloved and neglected.....
Actually, just typing that has made me feel sorry for the poor little thing. Perhaps I'll take a look at it this weekend.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
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>> Now the locost. That's a good idea. >> >> How's yours? >> -- Toad, please don't embarrass me in public like that. I have to confess that since I moved house in July, I haven't touched it. And until I sort out the mess left by the tenants from hell who occupied the place before I bought it, the Locost will just have to sit in the garage, unloved and neglected..... Actually, just typing that has made me feel sorry for the poor little thing. Perhaps I'll take a look at it this weekend.
Didn't notice this at the time.
If you were ever looking to part with it there's planty of room in my garage for a part finished project...
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Good: The glowlight around the ignition on my Rover.
Good: Foglight switch only work when the lights are on, same car.
Good: Putting the hazard light switch on the steering column of old Fiestas and Escorts. Very handy for those 'Oh crap' sudden stops in the motorway.
Bad: Terrible electric window switch on the Punto, right at the bottom of dashboard.
Bad: The array of levers on the side of a BMW passenger seat. The number of times I've pulled the wrong one and ended up almost horizontal.
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Good: Putting the hazard light switch on the steering column of old Fiestas and Escorts. Very handy for those 'Oh crap' sudden stops in the motorway.
Not sure exactly where it is on the Fords, but on my old Tipo it was on the top of the steering column. Which is fine until you try and reach through the steering wheel to turn it on then realise you have to turn sharply and get your wrist trapped...
Another good that I'm surprised no-one has mentioned - ignition switch position on most Saabs. It's so much easier to find down between the seats, you don't have the keyfob dangling against your leg and it allows a very effective gear lock to be fitted.
A good but bad design IMO is the Yaris instrument panel. The digital display is ace, the rev counter is much better than a dial one, yet the only indication of temperature is a light that goes blue when it is cold and red when you are overheating. Not much use for detecting things like failing water pumps...
Oh, and while I'm on the Yaris, the rear seat that pulls forward to give you extra boot space is also a very good idea.
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Going back a bit, the headlights and sidelights on the Pug.305 could be removed for bulb replacement within 30 secs. of opening the bonnet, without any tools being used.
Funnily enough on the current Mondeo you have to take out the whole light unit to change bulbs, Not exactly 30 seconds but not particularly difficult or time consuming either.
Plus to change the Xenons over from LH to RH dip there is a little thing (technical term) at the back of the unit which is accessible once the units have been removed. They don't tell you that in the owner's manual.
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What is the design value of the rheostat that dims the dashboard illumination brightness? I have had it on my last 4 cars, never saw the point of it.
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What is the design value of the rheostat that dims the dashboard illumination brightness? I have had it on my last 4 cars, never saw the point of it.
On some cars it can reflect onto the windscreen which annoys the hell out of me. Also I suppose people feel more comfortable/cosseted when the lights on all the other bits (radio, switchgear etc) is dimmed as well. But agree that it is not the most valuable bit in the box
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What is the design value of the rheostat that dims the dashboard illumination brightness? I have had it on my last 4 cars, never saw the point of it.
The rheostat thumbwheel on my Focus gradually rotates of its own accord towards the minimum illumination position. Annoying or what....?
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"a low volume sonic warning indicates that road speed is near the national maximum"
Tyre noise??
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Of the many design glories on my Citroën CX, my favourite is the non self-cancelling indicators. They go on (dodgy electrics permitting) when you switch them on, and they go off when you switch them off. Quite logical, really - and they don't cancel when you're halfway through a right turn on a roundabout.......:-)
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Of the many design glories on my Citroën CX, my favourite is the non self-cancelling indicators.
What, LHM? better than the glorious steering????
Have you noticed that the left indicator button (only) allows you to switch it on without locking it on? Very handy for Motorway overtaking - en France!
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Of the many design glories on my Citroën CX, my favourite is the non self-cancelling indicators.
>>>What, LHM? better than the glorious steering????
Thanks for reminding me, LZ, guess you just get used to it (until you drive something else, of course!!).
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" CM - Good - the 2 little "spot" lights in a BMW 5 that lightly illuminate the interior of the car when headlights are on. Gives a really nice warm feeling and worth buying the car just for them - "
What spot lights? I have a 1999-E39 but do not know what you mean. The only "spot" lights I know of are the four reading lights that have to be individually swithced on.
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The "spot" lights are those just in front of the rear view mirror (placed in the cieling). If you put your hand i front of the rear view mirror you can see them very clearly. I have a 2000 E39 so presume that you chould have them as well.
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One of these days he'll discover how to turn them off!
But don't hold your breath!
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The "spot" lights are those just in front of the rear view mirror (placed in the cieling). If you put your hand i front of the rear view mirror you can see them very clearly. I have a 2000 E39 so presume that you chould have them as well.
Thanks CM. I just checked and they are there. Until now I had assumed the two orange/yellow spots to be l.e.d.s meant to assist in locating the interior & reading light switches. Because I have not driven/parked in torally dark places, I never noticed the orange spot-light thrown on the gearstick, and had assumed the orange illumination in the car was from street lights!
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Bad 1: Cars that don't have *audible* water temperature warnings.
Bad 2: Cars that don't have an oil pressure gauge.
Shocking: cars that don't have a proper water temp gauge.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Bad 1: Cars that don't have *audible* water temperature warnings.
Not sure if any of my cars have had this as I've never experienced one overheating! The fan kicking in usually gives you a bit of a warning though.
Bad 2: Cars that don't have an oil pressure gauge.
I don't think any of the cars I've driven have had one of these. In the case of the Tipo, the oil warning light only flickered on when cornering sharply when you were down to about half what you should have in...
Shocking: cars that don't have a proper water temp gauge.
Yup, as above, the Yaris. They can fit an external sensor yet can't tell you how the engine is doing...
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Not sure if any of my cars have had this as I've never experienced one overheating! The fan kicking in usually gives you a bit of a warning though.
Not much help if fan failure is the cause of the overheating though.
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Good design: The Skoda Octavia has a high-pitched bleep to accompany any of the warning lights coming on (low fuel, brake pads etc), I assume the same would be the case if the water temperature light came on. Although it never has on mine yet...
Bad design: One of our drivers took their Octavia for a short flight across a cattle grid set into concrete, halfway along a muddy farm track that had eroded to 6" below the level of the grid. One cracked sump later, they kept driving until enough oil had drained out to trigger the oil pressure warning light (and accompanying bleep!). The oil pressure sender is connected to the warning light via the ECU, so that rather than the light flickering as the pressure gently drops it switches on once the pressure falls below a preset value. Problem is, the pressure sender is just after the oil pump, so by the time the light came on £1100 of engine damage had been done...
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>> Not sure if any of my cars have had >> this as I've never experienced one overheating! The fan kicking in >> usually gives you a bit of a warning though. >> Not much help if fan failure is the cause of the overheating though.
Nor if a leak drops the coolant level below that of the switch.
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Bad 2: Cars that don't have an oil pressure gauge.
I fitted one of these to my old Allagro; used to frighten me to death watching that needle sway all over the place.
Far simpler if the car manufactuer fitted an oil pressure switch that triggered a light when the oil pressure drops below 20psi and not 2psi.
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I can't stand the horn button being on the face of the steering wheel (fortunately, in my ZX it isn't). Apart from the much nicer, more positive feel of pressing a button on one of the stalks, I find it a lot harder to cover a button on the steering wheel when I think I'm going to need the horn. And the heel of your hand can set it off when you're steering.
I've heard it suggested that a nice big button right in front of you is easy to thump in desperation at the last minute. It strikes me that if you're panicking to that extent, it's a tad too late.
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I can't stand the horn button being on the face of the steering wheel ... And the heel of your hand can set it off when you're steering.
I prefer it on the wheel to a stalk, but it needs to be easy to find. On my mother's old Saab 900 I used to keep brushing it when cornering but could never find it when I needed it!
I've heard it suggested that a nice big button right in front of you is easy to thump in desperation at the last minute. It strikes me that if you're panicking to that extent, it's a tad too late.
I'm always worried about setting the airbag off by thumping the horn too hard in my Yaris! While I doubt that could happen, I don't want to find out the hard way!
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Good :Alfa Romeo 156 , hidden rear door handles. Very clever design and certainly gives the car a Coupe look.
Bad: All 4x4's and MPV's. (and of course the diesel engine)
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Does that include the MPVs and the 4x4s that are usually found parked anywhere but in a safe place when schools start or finish?
Bad Design - The Fiat Regata between the front bumper and the rear bumper (including the bumpers), possibly with the exception of the engine!
Bad Design - The child proof electric rear window system on the Xantia. Sure there is a button neatly placed near the steering console to disable the buttons on the rear doors, but my little angels have discovered that the buttons that they can reach at the rear of the centre console always work. Aren't the little darlings clever?
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Good from Citroen:
DS : Headlamps that move with the steering wheel to illuminate where the car is going (That whole suspension, braking, power steering thing)
ZX : Electric mirror only on the passenger side (you can easily do the near one)
ZX : Rear sliding seats to increase loadspace in boot whilst remaining covered
2CV : Removable seats, for picnics
C5 : Suspension that lowers at speed to decrease drag
AX : Wine bottle holders in the doors
CX : Two phase horn - one for around town "peep" one for country & motorway "Paaaarrrp"
CX Safari : Pistol style door handles on the interior
XM : 2nd rear Window to protect rear seat occupants whilst tailgate is open
Pluriel : pickup to car to convertible
And...
Any car with the sense to activate the rear wiper when you engage reverse if you've got the front wipers going
Multiplexed electrics
Top of the tree must be ABS and then followed by Active Stabilility Programme, Electronic Stability Programme, Dynamic stability control or whatever else they call the magic that looks where you're trying to point the car, where it's going and sorts it all out using brakes, traction control, power distribution and horlicks. Amazing stuff.
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Good from Citroen: ZX : Electric mirror only on the passenger side (you can easily do the near one)
Yep I like that too.
Bad from Citroen:
ZX (1.9TD anyway) radiator bottom hose connection thingy. Physically impossible to be undone by hand until the filler tank and the radiator are broken apart with a crowbar. Should have suspected something when the Haynes book said removal, inspection and refitting was a 1 spanner job.
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Good from Citroen: ZX : Electric mirror only on the passenger side (you can easily do the near one) ZX : Rear sliding seats to increase loadspace in boot whilst remaining covered.....
......and a rear seat back that could be adjusted for angle. Very handy when carrying large boxes ~ you could make the seat back vertical and hence maximise the usable floor area.
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Whilst the X5 quite rightly gets a regular slating on here, I think the design is a work of genius.
The way they have shaped the sides to conceal the size of the beast is fantastic. On the silver model the two colours also help. In short, there is not a boring inch on it.
Puts all other 4x4s to shame.
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Got to agree, GJD.
Having changed recently from a car where the horn was on a stalk, to one where it's on the steering wheel, I have definitely found that the heel of my hand has sounded the horn unintentionally, and embarrassingly.
And I also agree - that if you're in a dangerous or life-threatening situation, surely the last thing you would be thinking about is sounding your horn, surely evasive tactics would come before you thought about tooting!
HF
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if you're in a dangerous or life-threatening situation, surely the last thing you would be thinking about is sounding your horn, surely evasive tactics would come before you thought about tooting! HF
Be thankful you've got the whole of the steering wheel boss to thump, my K-reg Cavalier with an airbag had two little tiny areas on the wheel where your thumbs go at the ten-to-two position for the horn! Try hitting one of those first time when you need to, I never managed it successfully in the whole time I had the car.
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my K-reg Cavalier with an airbag had two little tiny areas on the wheel
Dave the T,
Things haven't improved, Vauxhall are still using that design on current models. Much prefered the pre airbag steering wheels where you just thumped it, without having to worry about aiming for a little button.
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Definitely, although it had a good twin-tone p*** when you got it right! So much so I swapped it for the puny Skoda beep before I sold it...
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It filters out a word beginning with "p" and rhyming with "harp"??? Well I'll be pink fluffy dice.
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SWMBO's Clio has horn on lights stalk, and pressure points on the wheel as well!
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Not everyone wants to do all the servicing jobs themselves.
But a lot of drivers would consider changing thier own oil and filter.
So it's a pity that the guy who designs the engine and decides where to put the filter can't liase with the guy who decides on the chassis underframe.
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The Cavalier clutch may well be cheap to mend but mine's never gone - just my luck: all the other expensive things HAVE plus some cheap things several times such as WING MIRRORS which snap off when you look at them - bad design!
splodgeface
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(I've taken a long time to discover this thread)
Placing of Peugeot oil filters (a particular comment on the underbonnet layout of Pugs):
205 petrol: plenty of room, no problem;
205 Dturbo: very little room, but filter near top and accessible - but it's vertical, so oil spills everywhere;
306 Dturbo: behind rad and rather awkward;
306 HDi: also behind rad but surrounded by other bits - only accessible from underneath and with difficulty. I dread the possibility of one being on too tight.
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Amusing: the copy of the Passat's vanity mirror lighting - lower sunvisor, lift mirror flap, lamp in roof lights up. Trouble is, in the LagunaII, the flap covers the roof light...
Not so amusing: official Renault method for converting Xenon equipped car for LHD travel is £35 kit of headlamp protectors which you mask up.
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Good design: the little clear plastic clip halfway up the inside of the driver's side windscreen pillar on Octavias for trapping pay-and-display car park tickets underneath. Better than letting them blow away between placing them on the dashboard and shutting the door! Cost: about 1p per 10 clips produced.
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Good:
Wipers on my old Saab 93 (& possibly others) would wipe again 10 seconds or so after washing the front or rear screen, handy for catching annoying drips (.... fill in your own witty retort....)
Those little plastic things that let you display car parking tickets without messing up the windscreen, or (worse) sticking them onto the drivers window and risk jamming the window motor when you forget about them (SWMBO take note) Volvo, Skoda, Citroen, and probably others have cottoned on to this idea. should be compulsory - 2p piece of plastic, that's all it is.
Nissan for providing two trip meters (at least on the Bluebird and the latest Primera) - useful when you need to keep track of two sets of distances.
(clearly I am amused by gadgets & gizmos, not fussed at all about stuff like fuel consumption, handling, or anything technical)
Bad:
Recently drove a Laguna 2 and found that I kept setting off from junctions and traffic lights with the hazard lights activated, mainly because someone decided that the best place for the hazard light button is next to the handbrake. Hmmmm.....
Saab 93 ventilation controls: these were replaced as a matter of course when it went in for servicing, feeble plastic probably shown up by corrosion in the ventilation ducts.
Door mirrors on my old Volvo V40 that accumulated rain water along the lower edge - if it wass designed in a Nordic country then how come it never oiccurred to anyone that said rain water might freeze up?
Worst of all (IMO): the ability of the hatch in a Puma to drip rain water over the contents of the boot.
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BAD:
----
? I don't know whether the journos picked up on this, but the indicators on the new Vectra are just beyond belief.
When you've just changed lane on a motorway, say, and you try to cancel the indication, the opposite side indicators immediately start flashing, so you try to cancel again, but then the first side flashes again, and so ensues an infuriating/hilarious (depending on which seat you're in) battle of wills between car and driver.
Me and a colleague recently drove more than 2000 Vectra miles, several of which were covered with the driver absorbed in this activity. Other drivers aren't quite sure whether you're trying to convey some complex message or just thanking them for being there ! ;-)
? Warm air from face-level vents (does anyone ever want warm air on their face ?)
? The "vase" in the Beetle dashboard.
GOOD:
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? The Zafira rear seats that fold flat into the floor
? Automatic wipers that sense water on the screen
? Remote central locking that opens just the driver's door on the first press
? 'Lights on' reminder (Why were VW so late in introducing this?)
? Variable intermittent wipe where you set the delay by momentarily selecting intermittent wipe and then again when the screen next needs a wipe. [I notice the new Passat uses a cheesy 5-position switch, à la Maestro Vanden Plas . . . ]
? That radio system that detects traffic news bulletins on other stations and temporarily jumps to that station before returning you back to where you were. The only downside is when desperate local stations keep you tuned for whole minutes after the bulletin has ended to try and 'hook' you. ("yeah, nice try")
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the indicators on the new Vectra are just beyond belief.
If you give the stalk a light tap, the indicators flash only for 3 cycles, then self cancel. A harder tap and they stay on until either you turn them off, or the rotation of the steering wheel turns them off.
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Yeah, you try it
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Could this be why some drivers never bother to indicate nowadays!!
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This one is for Dizzy:
Triumph 2000 has a low mounted cooling fan on the crankshaft, so it picks up water from puddles and flings it round the engine compartment. Dynamo control box is mounted low down, in line with the fan, so it gets a good spray of water and the contacts go rusty.
Another water example:
Volvo 240 notorious for leaking windscreen seals, especially bottom left corner. Fuse box is mounted just under the bottom left corner, to catch the drips and make the contacts corrode.
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Re: Vectra indicators
>>Yeah, you try it
Just been for a second drive in the new Vectra. No probs.
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I liked the radio aerial built into the rear window heater on my Orion.
Nothing to catch in car washes, interfere with roof racks or get vandalised.
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Bad : almost all Fiat's design (have they got a death wish? No wonder sales are carp)
Bad: Rover 800.. all aspects
Bad: Porsche 4x4, All US 4x4, all cars weighing more than 1.5 tonnes. All RR Silver Seraphs, Spirits, pre VW Bentley 1980-2000 - slab sided motorised drawing boards.All Ladas.
Great: Fiesta , BMW 507,
Boring: all Audi designs, all Vauxhall designs, many Fords, all VW...
Indescribably bad design.. Fiat Multipla (was the design committee - no single man /woman was responsible surely?- on drugs or hallucinating). The most perfect example of sheer grossness in a car.. designed to make all viewers avert their gaze. A parody? The wooden spoon? or does it share that with the other motorised lemon the Austin Aggro?
Mechanical design? the cambelt. the plastic camwheel. the Mondeo clutch (take the enine and suspension out before you change it),
madf
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I hav a 1998 Polo that has been broken into 3 times in 2 years for the Radio, All the time cost and hassle.
Total cost for all the repairs was over 3k, plus my insurance is now 50% more......We the people who pay insurance are all paying for this...
The Polo like many other cars has a stand alone Radio that can be sold at a Car Boot sale or Pub for just a few Quid.....
How about all cars be fitted as standard with the Dash Board Intergral Type of Radio that are not easy to Take or sell...
Must pop outside now to check my radio still there...
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Bad:
Spare wheels slung under boot with a drop screw that is rusted solid when you come to use it, plus the spare wheel is filthy dirty and you have to lay on the (usually wet and muddy) road to put the wheel back in after doing the change.
Plus any car with wheel bolts rather than studs and nuts, which makes hanging the wheel on and lining up the holes almost impossible in the dark.
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As most cars seem to have bolts and not studs & nuts what you need is a 2 inch bar with the same thread as the bolt. Then all you do is lightly screw this into the top most hole in the hub and then "hang" the wheel of this and put rest of the bolts in.
Next unscrew the little stud and put the last bolt in.I find this a very easy way to refit a wheel.
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Another gem from the Citroën CX - bad this time.........!
Spare wheel is a 'space saver' type, and it's 'holder' can't accommodate the larger 'normal' wheel. So if the boot's full of luggage and you've a full complement of passengers, just where do you put the flat????
May well apply to others........
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Good - VW Golf III can listen to the radio after turning the engine and ignition off when the key is left in the ignition.
Bad - all cars - electric windows don't work after the engine/ignition has been turned off and one of the doors has been opened.
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Key fobs that turn on/off the alarm immobiliser.
Had a Pug 306. Driving in France and stopped in one of the rest areas on the autoroute to have a pee. Locked the car and when I came back the batteries had given up the ghost. Spent half an hour trying to get the immobiliser de-activated. Eventually I persuaded another French 306 driver to lend me his batteries! (BAD)
On the next car, I put in a Clifford alarm. When batteries run low it used to give an extra couple of beeps to tell you when to change (GOOD)
Current 5 series, charges up the key fob as you drive along so there should never be a problem being locked out. Only have to remember to use the spare key once in a while to get it charged up! (GOOD)
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Good - VW Golf III can listen to the radio after turning the engine and ignition off when the key is left in the ignition.
Same with my Astra, except you don't even have to have the key in the ignition.
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>> Good - VW Golf III can listen to the radio after >> turning the engine and ignition off when the key is left >> in the ignition. >> Same with my Astra, except you don't even have to have the key in the ignition.
That's bad on the Astra IMHO. It means that there is a live cicuit the whole time and also can flatten the battery if a little careless!
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No, you can't flatten the battery unless you are very determined -- it turns itself off again after about 5 minutes.
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That's bad on the Astra IMHO. It means that there is a live cicuit the whole time and also can flatten the battery if a little careless!
No difference to a live circuit to the interior light, boot light, and headlights the whole time.
Anyway, if radio is left on, it will turn itself off after 1 hour to prevent battery drain.
Besides, they are all fuse protected.
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Phew, CM had me very worried there for a minute!
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Vectra Estates:
Good:-
* Inbuilt prop to support boot floor whilst removing spare wheel
* easy-lift-out moulded spare wheel cover, allowing other items to be stored cleanly in the spare wheel cavity, as well as further helping sound proofing
* Easy removal of entire load cover system as one 'cassette'
* Clips on wheel arch trim to stop rear seat belt entanglement in latch posts when the seats are folded flat
* CD multichanger in the glove box, making changes of CD easier, and without compromising loadspace or taking away use of the multiple useful cubbies in the boot for other things
* Electric front window switches on the centre console, where they should be, and not on the door. Much safer to wind windows up and down when pulling up and moving off, without having to keep swapping which hand is holding the steering wheel.
Bad:-
* Centre console locker gets in the way of the elbow of most drivers
* How the h*ll am I going to change the cam belt on that V6, butted up tight to the wheel arch?!?! I can hardly see it, let alone get to it!
* Rear wheel camber, made more extreme on GSi models like mine with much lower suspension, wears out the inner shoulder of low profile tyred models quicker than many front wheel drive cars wear their driven tyres out. Yes, it handles and grips very well, but other manufacturers offerings do too, without using this old trick.
/Steve
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Good:- Hydraulic Lifters.
Good:- Lifters with lock nuts to adjust.
Bad :- Shims.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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The window function you describe is deliberate - and a legal requirement. In the late 80s several children were killed by electric windows which could be operated with ignition off. Indeed, this is why all cars with one-touch up now have anti-trap features.
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VW Golf III can listen to the radio after turning the engine and ignition off when the key is left in the ignition.>>
Or with the key out (at least with the MkIV). Just press the volume knob...:-)
But you will have to press it again when you restart the car.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Bad - all cars - electric windows don't work after the engine/ignition has been turned off and one of the doors has been opened.
My 1997 Mitsubishi gives about 30 seconds to put the electric windows up after the key is out of the ignition, before the doors are locked.
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The two CX's I had both had full size spare wheels under the bonnet, and both were alloys. Which year and model do you have out of interest?
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Hi Nick, my CX from 1988 had a spacesaver spare, and I also discovered the alloys would not fit under the bonnet - that's the definition of spacesaver!!
It was a GTI Auto, and the chunky (but non-functioning) ABS gubbins lived under the mounting for the spare. Perhaps it was the ABS models which did not have a 'proper' spare.
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Having to take the spare wheel out of the boot to check the tyre pressure, as Vauxhall now put them face down in the boot space well.
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Good Design - My old Volvo 740 had a clip on the inside of the fuel filler flap to hold the filer cap while refueling. It also had the clear plastic clip to hold car park tickets against the front screen like Dave the taxi driver's Skoda.
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Having to take the spare wheel out of the boot to check the tyre pressure, as Vauxhall now put them face down in the boot space well.
A little aside here from the general thread.
Spare tyre pressure. It is set much higher than is "usable" on the road. I believe mine is set to 3.4 bar when I get it serviced rather than the 2.1 and 2.6 front/back that it should be.
Why is this? Presumably it is because the spare might well loose pressure etc.. but which is mroe dangerous to use on a car. Over or under infated? Which leads me onto asking why most cars don't come fitted with some way of measuring (let alone regulating) tyre pressure?
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3.4 bar (47.5 psi) sounds way over the normal maximum rated pressure for tyres (40 - 42 psi IIRC).
Personally I wouldn't go above about 38 psi or 2.7 bar!
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It might well have been 34psi, but still I had to let a helluva lot of air out when I changed it.
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CM - better to be letting air out of the tyre than having to put some in as soon as you fit the thing to the car.
Bad design - Ford transit rear fog light on indicator (a tiny bulb in the switch) , positioned so that 99% of drivers can not see that the rear fog lights are on and the 1% that can see if they are on usually switch them on because every other transit has his rear fogs switched on.
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>>It is set much higher than is "usable" on the road.>>
Sensible if you have a car with different tyre pressures front and rear.
If you have to use the spare, just drop the tyre pressure to the appropriate figure.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Bad design: Car handbooks, every single one that I've seen. Problem is that they try to write them to cover every possible equipment level, e.g. "Electrically operated thrunge wrangler ( if fitted)..."
Trouble is, it's often hard to find out what *is* fitted. I remember once having a Ford Granada as a company car, and the first thing that happened was I nearly ran out of petrol. The "Low fuel warning light (if fitted)" was not fitted to the 1989 GL trim model. I only found this out from the dealer when I complained that it wasn't working. Grrrr!
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The "Low fuel warning light (if fitted)" was not fitted to the 1989 GL trim model. I only found this out from the dealer when I complained that it wasn't working. Grrrr!
This happened to my Dad with a Sierra. Except the dealer got as far as taking the dashboard apart before coming back and asking my Dad whether the car had a low fuel warning light!! Don't remember who ended up paying for their time.
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I agree on car handbooks! Loads of beautifully detailed photo's of the bleedin' obvious - oil on dipstick etc. - and never one of that tricky little job or item that's not easy to identify.
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Good Design:
Mercedes foot operated parking brake (on auto models)
Bad Design
Mercedes foot operated parking brake ( on manual models)!!
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Good design
Nissan sunny 1.4 12 valve engine. all ancillaries high and dry and easily accessable, including the adjustment for the multi-v alternator/water pump belt that never needs adjusting.
Focus Ghia interior lights that fade out and retained petrol cap. Nice touches.
Bad design
Pug 309 1.3 ancillaries low and inaccessable, requires a three handed job to adjust the alternator belt with an unbelieveable mix of spanner sizes (as mentioned here already).
Same car window trims/seals
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Focus Ghia ........retained petrol cap.
Mine annoyed me so much that I removed the retainer with a pair of side-cutters. (With the retainer in place, the filler cap dangled on the paintwork.)
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Bad - VW 2.0l APK engine - to check the HT leads or change the plugs, you need to take the inlet manifold off as it goes over the top of the engine.
I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
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Good:- Toyota Yaris adjustable rear seat.
Bad:- Alfa Romeo 156 boot. Why have a boot lid that tapers inwards ?? Struggle to get two golf bags in there ! Looks nice but is impractical.
Good:- Alfa Romeo 156 / 147 concealed rear door handles - classy
Bad:- Any Alfa Romeo oil cap. You need fingers like matchsticks to be able to get in the recess and turn it !!
Bad:- Toyota Yaris miniscule integrated stereo. No option to replace it with a standard sized item. If the price of the radio aerial is anything to go by I dread to think how much it costs to replace the head unit !!
Good:- Fiat Cinquecento Sporting (everything) - A dream to work on, almost free to maintain. Wish i still had one !!
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Bandit 1200.
Lock nut tappit adjustment.
Stainless steel exhaust.
Air cooling.
What better bike to maintain?
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Rear window de-mist switches on a timer.
Proper full length sunroofs ( as in Citroen 2cv and my old peugeot 104)
audible warning that your lights are on whn you turn off the ignition/open a door (why don't all cars have this?)
Bad design
Switches that you accidentally hit while changing gear (such as the aircon on my 1996 Primera)
Cars with no interior stowage space (like my old seat toledo), or stowage space that is so badly designed that the merest hint of acceleration empties their contents into your lap.
The glove box on my dad's renault tractor that cools when the aircon is on (lovely cold beer at elevenses!)
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Good Design:
Alfa 156. Headlights that turn off completely when ignition turned-off and stay disconnected during start-up (so not draining battery)
Bad Design:
Alfa 156. Wash-wipe. Pull to wash/wipe front, only to have washer fluid wash the back of the wiper blade and come nowhere near the screen. Blades then start moving, smearing already dirty screen. Repeat wash inbetween wiper movements until finally able to see.
No Dosh ** Quick, talk motoring, Mark's coming! **
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N-D - do you need to adjust the aim of the jets? Or can't you?
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Good ; Alfa 156 rear door handles, hidden to look like a coupe, with all practicalities of 4 doors
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N-D - do you need to adjust the aim of the jets? Or can't you?
The jets are mounted directly behind the wipers and are otherwise perfectly aimed. It's just that the wiper starts about 1 second after the jets....
No Dosh ** Quick, talk motoring, Mark's coming! **
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Good Design
Renault Trafic van passenger seats that fold forwards to give you that extra carrying capacity when you need it.
Bad design
Have you ever tried to change gear in that s**ding thing with that seat folded forwards?!
Good design
Renault Trafic SWB load area just under 8 ft long.
Bad Design
Shame it's not the full 8 ft!!! (I don't ask for much)!
Hugo
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Best design: to turn on VW and Audi fog lights you pull out the headlight turn switch. when you turn the headlights off the fog lights also default to off as well.
Front fogs are completely unecessary - purely for people who like to light their cars up like Christmas trees.
Rear fogs are rarely necessary when dark - Even in the slightest wisp of fog the idiot 20 yards in front, crawling in traffic, will immediately burn your eyes out with rear fogs while you will be able to clearly see ordinary lights on cars several hundred yards ahead.
Not enough people use rear fogs in daylight when ordinary lights can often not be seen even at relatively short distances.
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Being a BX owner, I could go on for days about both good and bad design touches :), However, my prize has to go to an invention of little value that is potentially leathal and has spread across many makes and models :
The device that means the windscreen wipers automatically wipe after you use the washer.
I dont know who came up with this, but whoever decided to save mankind the effort of having to make a second flick of the fingers to manually activate the wipers after the washers needs a clip around the ear with a large blunt instrument.
I've owned several cars with this gadget as standard, but havent yet had one that has either a low washer water warning light or heated washer jets.
And as a result of said energy-saving gizmo, I've driven many a nervous mile in cold weather, my screen gradually filling up with road spray, wondering wether engine heat has unfrozen my washers yet and will a flick of the washers clear my screen? Or will they fail and the windscreen wipers smear the semi-frozen dirt into an impenatrable mess across my screen?
Or, in warmer weather, will I find I've run out of water and still be in the same situation, except potentially going a lot faster?
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So called "in-car entertainment systems" where the only "entertainment" is figuring out what all those wretched tiny buttons with Egyptian heiroglyphics on them do" some of them even have dual inter-related functions, i.e. you have to press another one to make the one you think you want work.
Impossible to operate safely on the move and very hard to grasp unles you happen to be aged 13. What the hell is "RDS"?
I kid you not, 50% of the Owner's Manual pages of My Ford F-150 are taken up with instructions on how on how to use the radio/stero/CD etc/ You plough through it thinking you've finally got it nailed, then look at your own unit and it's not the one you were reading about. You missed the 8 point type saying "for CAnadian markets" only. Like I have the time to do all this. Duh!
Result I never use the wretched thing.
This is a case where motion in the auto industry does not automatically mean progress.
I want what I used to have:
- a knob on the left, on/off/volume/pull it out, get bass/treble
- some buttons along the underneath that you pulled out when you had found your favorite stations so you could lock them in.
- a knob on the right, twiddle it til you got the station you want.
-anything else junk it and reduce the price of the car.
Bah!
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Don't know if its been mentioned,but a very good piece of design is the radio/stereo remote control mounted just behind the steering wheel on my Renault Laguna.
You can access nearly all functions and certainly the most used ones,without taking your hands off the wheel.Much better than the steering wheel mounted buttons available on some cars.
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Good design 1: my Grundig car car radio where I can change radio channels with one finger without looking away from the road. (the multifunction button is on the right of the radio, less good for LHD!)
Good design 2: The Mk1 (but facelifted) VW Passat, compact package, great car.
Bad design: on the Mk1 Passat if you upended a bucket of water on the roof with the door open, the inside of the car got wet!
pat
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Bad design: on the Mk1 Passat if you upended a bucket of water on the roof with the door open, the inside of the car got wet! pat
Now why on earth would you want to do that?
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Bad - Rear Door handles on the Alfa range. Why? They are four door vehicles so why hide the fact? Anyone claiming it makes them look like a coupe, please explain. Especially the van like 147.
The Puma tailgate. When Mrs. Etchells had aspirations to own, I looked at one that was very wet. When the hatch was lifted the amount of water that cascaded in to the boot had to be seen to be believed.
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Bad - Rear Door handles on the Alfa range. Why? They are four door vehicles so why hide the fact? Anyone claiming it makes them look like a coupe, please explain. Especially the van like 147.
Leaping to the defence of my beloved Alfa....
Surely this is a purely aesthetic argument rather than bad design? I think the handles amount to good design as, in the current slush and salt, they have remained cleaner due to being mounted higher and above a pronounced swage line on the flank of the car.
Personally I think that the idea of making the function work with the form amounts to the epitomy of good design, but then I'm just a biased Alfisti.
No Dosh ** Quick, talk motoring, Mark's coming! **
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>> >> Bad design: on the Mk1 Passat if you upended a >> bucket of water on the roof with the door open, the >> inside of the car got wet! >> >> pat >> Now why on earth would you want to do that?
Forgive my stupidity, but wouldn't that happen with any car?
HF
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"Now why on earth would you want to do that? "
saw it done on telly No Dosh...! heavy rain gave a similar effect...
pat
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Bad design: on the Mk1 Passat if you upended a bucket of water on the roof with the door open, the inside of the car got wet!
>
current Bora - I've just opened the boot and the frozen layer of sleet on the boot lid slid down and into the boot where it shattered like a broken windscreen. Managed to get most of it out, but i bet the carpet will be wet for weeks
I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
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Focus bad points :-
1.Heater defaults to "recirculated air" when you turn the fan off.
2.Can't have the rear fog light on without the fronts.
Focus good points:-
Practically everything else.
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Ford Sierra 88 vintage
Good points
Best rear light arrangement.
Both side lights brighten when "fog lights" switched on thus illuminating the extremities of the car. (Two lights are better than one.) Brake lights are well away from fog lights ( next to number plate). Twin reversing lights included of course.
FIAT UNO 88 vintage
Bad points
Turn off the ignition and all the extermal lights are switched off.
Switches on dash are iluminated badly by one bulb and a bunch of fibre optic cables.
Little button to be pressed and ingnition key turned in opposite direction for parking lights But dash also illuminated (why?)
Good point
Ducellier distributor cap
Has pins rather than sockets for HT leads. They are the same size and shape as spark plugs connections - easy to clean
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Bad design? - How wonderful has been the progress in bad design over half a century. Has everyone forgotten the manifold-pressure piston driven screen wipers on 1950s Fords? They thrashed like fury at low engine-load cruising speed and almost stopped as you accelerated to overtake. And someone must recall the Standard economy saloon (an inspired brand name if ever there was)in which access to the boot/trunk was through the forward tilted rear seat-squab space (no boot-lid!).
Mixed design? Someone has already sung the praises of the centrally located ignition key-hole on Saabs with a lock-in-reverse anti-theft facility. However, their early key-holes were sited in a bowl-shaped recess that was great for collecting biscuit crumbs, sand and any other child-related fallout.
Good design? As for good design, wasn't it the first Ford Cortina of the 1960s that introduced the now universal fresh-air heating with an intake to a heater and rear air outlets rather than the previous system with progressively increasing humidity and associated oxygen deprivation?
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Good design.
Remote unlocking on a Corsa I was lent,the first press of the key fob unlocks the drivers door only,thus preventing an opportunist thief from say snatching a hand bag while the driver is getting settled and disappearing in the crowd in the time it took driver to get out,even supposing one wanted to tangle with the culprit these days.The second press unlocks other doors,boot and fuel cap.
ndbw
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Good design. Remote unlocking on a Corsa I was lent,the first press of the key fob unlocks the drivers door only The second press unlocks other doors,boot and fuel cap.
What I fail to understand is why the fuel cap isn't opened on the first press as well? To unlock it you have unlock all the other doors - hence letting an opportunist thief snatch anything on the passenger side of the car whilst you fill up from the drivers side.
Maybe not quite a good design after all.
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You want a good old fashioned Ford petrol cap lock. Then you wouldn't be faced with such a dangerous problem.
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You want a good old fashioned Ford petrol cap lock.
Is that one of those ones where 1 in 4 Ford keys will fit ;o)
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There is good and bad design.
Then there is design. For the sake of it. For the joy of being different. Design it different because you can and your bosses encourage you.
Citroen did it, for years. Then they stopped and they stopped being Citroen, because radical design and thought was the heart and soul of Citroen.
They are however starting to be Citroen again. Some of the ideas may be pure carp, some may be good in theory but awful in practise, some may be sheer genious. For sure there will be a mixture of all three. But I for one have always had a sneaking liking for radical Citroens, because, well they are Citroens!
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On a sort of similar note to RF, the sleekness of my car means it has no rain gutters, which in turn means that if you wash the windscreen with the drivers window open, the water drips on your knee.
So is that bad design because of the dripping, or good design because it looks damn fine?
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In the Laguna, the water drips down into the handy electric window switches, thereby draining into the electrics and not messing up your Ralf Laurent strides, or your Gucci loafers.
Now thats French.
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Reminds me of the neat feature introduced by Mercedes on (IIRC) the W123 - rain channels at the sides of the windscreen that divert water from the windscreen over the roof. Copied by pretty much everyone (I thought), you only notice it these days when you drive a car which doesn't have it.
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Reminds me of the neat feature introduced by Mercedes on (IIRC) the W123 - rain channels at the sides of the windscreen that divert water from the windscreen over the roof. Copied by pretty much everyone (I thought), you only notice it these days when you drive a car which doesn't have it.
How old is the W123? Because rain channels have been around for a looooong time. I've only driven 2 cars that didn't have these, an Alfa and my Coupe. Both looked a lot better for their lack. All depends on what you find inportant I suppose.
I'm not too adverse to just closing the window when washing the screen, and I love the way it looks.
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Actually, when I come to think about it, the Alfa didn't suffer from this problem. Instead of channels, it had a kind of slightly recessed windscreen, so the edges caught it. If the roof of your car had standing water on it when you first drove off though, the first time you went round a corner you got a lap-full, if you had the windows open.
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first press of the key fob unlocks the drivers door only>>
Also a VW feature.
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