"doesn't seem very lenient to me"
Jonathan, as I understand it, 100mph plus on a motorway = automatic ban plus fine plus points.**
Forgive me for being pedantic, but 110 in a 30 I thought might be considered just a little more serious?
** Please correct me if I'm wrong.........
.........Mark, why won't you let me type a plus sign?
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If he was a police driver, his career will have most likely to have suffered and could have lost his job. I think that you are only allowed to accrue 6 points before they prevent you driving.
How long a ban would you expect for this? As far as I know unless you have been drink driving you only usually get banned for a couple of weeks or two months. Anyone can make a plea for not receiving a ban, arguments include having dependents and other people who rely on you to drive (please correct me if I'm wrong........)
Unless you have the court transcript its quite difficult to say what he received is lenient or not.
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It seems quite a reasonable sentence if the exercise had no risk to the general public. Since we are not party to the details it is hard to comment.
There is an interesting article in the Sunday Times Driving section about police driving and the dramatic increase in the number of accidents. It seems that they are allowed to race to an incident that is not life threatening such as a pub fight. The article suggests that the police big cheeses believe that police drivers are rushing to incidents that do not justify excessive speed. It also mentions that the Driving Standards Agency is contemplating a set of minimum standards for blue light users.
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As a Grade 1 Advanced driver, I am very, very careful about the incidents that I use my emergency lights/sirens for. To suggest a pub fight is not life threatening is a bit of a generalization. If you're getting your head stoved in with a pool cue, or are being stamped on by an 18 stone drunk, you would want the Police there pretty sharpish. However, I will not rush to alarms, (on the basis that by the time it's gone through the system, the intruder has already left and 99% of activations are false.)
What I do have a problem with is junior Officers with standard driving tickets (which theoretically amounts to a civilian advanced qualification), using blue lights/sirens to attend every job they attend. A small minority certainly do abuse the system. I witnessed one of these driving in a manner totally inappropriate for the conditions and she was taken aside and told the error of her ways.(She also had to re-attend the driving school.)
Black boxes are becoming increasingly common in Police vehicles and rightly so. Some criticism is deserved, but using a small number of incidents to have yet another 'pop' at the Police is becoming increasingly tedious.
MLC
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My respect for the restraint of police drivers was enhanced when I came up behind four police motorcyclists and a traffic island in heavy traffic.
Three of the police guys got past but the fourth was blocked by a car and we sat there for several minutes before the traffic started moving again.
I must admit that if I had been on the police bike I would have found that I had an emergency call, stuck the blues on and gone the wrong side of the island to catch up my mates.
But no, to his credit, the Evil Kneivel sat it out.
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"But no, to his credit, the Evil Kneivel sat it out."
Pity he can't have a word in the ear of his colleague who nearly took me (and himself) out on a blind left (blind right to him) as he took the racing line.
Relied on siren and stobes (good job I'm not deaf). On his way to an RTA.........that occurred 45 minutes earlier, already attended by fire, ambulance, another bike, three pandas and 2 traffic cars.
So, why the rush........someone forget the pen?
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Essex police disbanded their motorcycle unit after two officers killed themselves within a week.
Last year 31 out of 123 fatals on Essex roads were bikers.
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"Anyone can make a plea for not receiving a ban"
So it's discretionary, is it?
If so, I withdraw.............
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>>Mark, why won't you let me type a plus sign?
Dunno, I think I can +++++++++++++++ +
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>>Mark, why won't you let me type a plus sign?
Dunno, I think I can +++++++++++++++ +
Sppoky that, I can't. Look : +++++++++++++++++
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Aha.........it's just the preview.
You're trying to confuse me, Mark. Smack your legs.......
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Why do the police need to do 110mph on the road? Don't they have radios/colleagues/helicopters?
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Come on Doug, if your house was being burgled or a member of your family was beig attacked you'd be quite happy to see the police arrive at 110mph.
Besides, it's a speed most of us have done at one time or another without any justification, save for the hell of it.
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Tom, pre 1969, I used to do so as a matter of course. Plod didn't even blink.
What went wrong? Oh, yes.......her name was Barbara Castle.
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Is my memory at fault, or was she another of those Transport Ministers who didn't drive?
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Yes.......non-driver and Mother of the Blanket Limit.
Panic measure to cure motorway fog crashes. That worked, didn't it?
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I doubt if I'd get a reponse from the police, never mind attendance at 110mph, sounds like one law for one and one for another to me.
My concern is the mounting casualty list of civilians, this officer wasn't capable of driving safely at the speed he was doing, this should have been picked up in training, at an off-road track. My argument is that if we are to fund the likes of helicopters, then the payback should be safer driving.
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"this officer wasn't capable of driving safely at the speed he was doing, this should have been picked up in training"
He's an instructor !
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I seem to remember a biker getting a 3 year ban and a12 month prison sentance for doing 160 MPH no one hurt or killed so how does that compear
sorry this may be the second time i posted this i am new to
the forum
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It is...........you are, aren't you? Hi, there.
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It shows that much does it and hi back
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Mark,
Re "However, I do hope they closed off the road to other traffic, or had some other way of knowing it was clear, before they did their exercise."
for someone who is so violently pro-traffic police practises you have just demonstrated very well that you know precious little about how they ACTUALLY conduct themselves in real life. Make friends with a few you'd be very very surprized at what they get up to.
Cheers etc,
Me
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Here we go again!
Think this one occured in my neck of the woods but dont know much about it though.
30mph limit - dont think so! Then it wouldn't be such a good pop at plod if it was the national speed limit would it?
Lenient sentence? This was a single vehicle accident. Very few of them ever get to court. This is an example of the police being made an example of. I dont call £500 + £1200 lenient either thats a real stuffing! At the end of the day he was only doing his job and training others to do theirs.
And the great uninformed off on a tangent again about something they know s** all about. Forget speeders - robbers,rapists, rerrorist and murderers they dont stick to speed limits to be caught. Helicopters - they have limitations. Its all about managing with the best resources available at the time to try and give some Quality of Service and fulfil some expectations.
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"30mph limit - dont think so!"
Newspaper report :
"Prosecuting counsel said the speed limit in the area was 30mph but, despite warning signs showing a car veering off the road, the policeman slowed down from 110mph only slightly"
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>>for someone who is so violently pro-traffic police practises
Violently ? Excuse me ?
>>you have just demonstrated very well that you know precious
>>little about how they ACTUALLY conduct themselves in real >>life.
I know, you get attacked, vicimised, abused, etc. at least twice a day and three times on a good one.
Your anti-police views show at every opportunity, they are not a surprise.
>Make friends with a few you'd be very very surprized at what
>they get up to
Two uncles, three cousins and an aunt, two ex-girlfriends and about five current drinking partners. That enough for you ?
And I still don't share your "violent" hatred of the police.
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Oh dear Mark,
I know, you get attacked, vicimised, abused, etc. at least twice a day and three times on a good one.
This is not what I said, or have ever said.
Your anti-police views show at every opportunity, they are not a surprise.
I do not have anti police views. In this particular incident I dont feel that particular copper was doing much that has not been done many times similarly by his work mates - and as such I dont regard him as to blame (although the courts did) I regard the institution of the police force as it relates to traffic policing as a matter badly in need of a shake up.
No doubt the Pol Fed paid for a better lawyer than most could afford. And he will have come out with some tosh about "professional driver" etc. Good luck to him
And the fact that minor stuff that would lead to most loosing their licence is routinely disregarded because of their job. I'd like them to be a bit safer. They only ever get done when there is a smash, because at all other times they are immune - and they know it which makes it worse.
Lighten up a little,
Cheers
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"I regard the institution of the police force as it relates to traffic policing as a matter badly in need of a shake up"
And so does a retired traffic policeman I met recently at a government transport meeting.
He said present standards are appalling.
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not on a 30mph country lane we havent!!!!
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copper in court today re the crash in hove
he was doing 80 on the wrong side of the road in a 30 limit when he crashed
neither he nor the other copper in the car can remember anything about it (nice way to avoid answering questions if youre cynucal - but of course i dont think this)
and the case is expected to last a week in court, think it would take about 20 minutes for anyone else
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PAA Crazed, Paa.
Post accident amensia.
Came across it a lot when I dealt with accidents. Drivers didn't know what happened until many days later when they came up with an explanation that was totally different to the what the witnesses/evidence suggested, but always in their favour.
Likewise the flyers, they didn't know what speed they were doing.
Likewise MOT, they didn't know when it expired.
Even had one driving in slippers - he had forgotten to put his shoes on.
The best - that they had not been the driver.
It's funny old world we live in isn't it.
DVD
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I didn't realise driving in slippers might contravene the law of the land. I sometimes do; also barefoot sometimes.
What would the offence be? Dressing without due care and attention?
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notice the hove copper was found not guilty of dangerous driving, and the jury failed to reach a verdict on a seperate charge of driving without due care
CPS will decide whether to take due care charge to magistrates (I bet they dont)
Sadly this shows British justice to be a sham
ordinary person wouldnt get legal representation for a week long trial with a jury
and this copper caused an accident just as bad as many that have resulted in people loosing licences, he had a better legal team and the system is weighted in his favour
one law for them, another for the rest of us
its about time we had some real justice and democracy round here
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"real justice" -
You mean a la Gerald Nabarro?
Or perhaps Maxwell winning libel case(s) against Private Eye?
THAT sort of REAL justice?
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I would say that we are lucky to live in a country where the plod are relatively free of corruption and on the whole are decent. Try living in a country where a back hander does the business. When I lived in Montreal a regular news item was the gun battles between Mohawks and the Montreal police. Scary.
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Good god Crazed - you a relative of Joe Starlin?
Twelve people, good and true, say the bloke was Not Guilty and you still want a hanging.
Bet you screw the heads off jelly babies before eating them?
DVD (tic)
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DVD, I note your faith in the system wasn't shared by a judge this week when the jury found for a sex offender.
I heard he held his head in his hands in disbelief.
Would you direct the same message to him?
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Quick lesson PMT
The cornerstone of British Justice despite its many imperfections and admired by the rest of the world as the fairest is based on the premis that it is far better for a guilty person to go free than an innocent person to be convicted.
You should also appreciate in this dictum that a guilty person will either "come again" and get his just rewards or be thankful and not re-offend. Whereas, a convicted innocent, through the injustice seek his own revenge against society.
I don't want a return to a lynch mob mentality as advocated by some media induced individuals, do you?
I've had many a case before a Court when the verdict has left me spitting blood but I accept the sensibility of what is outlined in the opening para.
Sorry about your feline, tried brushing talc into its coat.
DVD
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Lesson understood, DVD
Pity it doesn't work full time, isn't it? Immediate thought is the Bakwell killer who wasn't the Bakewell killer.
And I could go on about a system that denies justice to all but the very wealthy or the very poor, but I won't............
Don't worry about the moggies, it's the one firmly attached to the car's underside that causes concern.
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Trouble is Paul you hear more about the minority innocent convicted than the majority guilty let off.
Life's a bummer but keep smiling.
DVD
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he was in a car doign 8o in a 30 limit on the wrong side of the road way beyond his capabilities
he stacked it
there was nothing wrong with the car
i'd love to hear what tosh the defence cam eup with "oh hes a copper working very hard etc etc" what complete pap
this is not acceptable
and i believe we should all have jury trial, especially those facing loosing their licence for trivial speeding offences
UK plod have lost the plot, and the likjes of brunstrom should be kicked out of the job and made into traffic wardens
DVD you do your cause nothing but a dis-service by failing to speak out when coppers such as Hove driver step so far out of line and walk away scot free
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Sorry Crazed but before putting on the black cap I would like to see the full transcript of the evidence and if you were present at 'the trial' and listened to the Hon Judge in his final summing up then matters may well have been very clear.
Problem is a lot of people read/hear 'bits' put out by the media who are not interested in the pure factual side of things but the sensational. Result - too many uninformed people put the black cap on before they know the full story.
I try and defend a job and people in it that I did for 30 years and enjoyed every minute and into which I gave my all. It isn't perfect, never was, and every time I read adverse comments its like a stab in the back. I'm sat here bleeding to death, partly because there are occasions when it is true but also that it is ill informed.
DvD
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Re "partly because there are occasions when it is true"
good to see it admitted for once
and if the public saw a little evidence that UK plod took their deficiencies a little bit more seriously there would be a lot more good will around
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"and if the public saw a little evidence that UK plod took their deficiencies a little bit more seriously there would be a lot more good will around"
I doubt that statement is true.
Some with an anti-establishment agenda are incapable of objectivity.
As has been said many times before on this forum "Our policemen are Wonderful" - not perfect - but amongst the best in the world.
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The thing is, that in the police, as in every other walk of life, and as I've said before, there are generally a few bad amongst a majority of good. (sorry if being repetitious). It's just that a whole lot more publicity, and therefore public awareness, tends to be focussed on the bad elements, which can and does lead to the assumption that the whole organistaion is bad. IMHO this applies across the board, not just to motor police - of course many people will bring up their bad experiences, but few will take the time to comment if these organisations have acted in the correct manner, or in a way that has pleased them. I'm sure this applies not only to police but also to hospitals, utility companies, almost everything. But I will stop now as I am digressing from the point of the thread.
HF
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many are wonderful
majority are average
some are poor
some are warm hearted good people
some are evil nasty people
just like any other big bunch of people
what they do have is a common blinkered set of views brought on by inadequate training, a grass roots ethos that covers up for each other when often one of their rank has gone way too far,
a ever diminishing driving record and skills level, and a very bad senior management
and they are NOT the best coppers in the world
its a hard job to do well, and an easy job to do badly
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Quote: 'and they are NOT the best coppers in the world'
Nominations for this category, please?
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Most professions contain a greater or lesser proportion of people in senior roles who, in the opinion of an (uninformed) outsider, should not occupy that role.
I don't think my boss is the right man for the job.
But the fact remains that he HAS the job, and whatever I say will not change that.
It is all too easy to point fingers at anybody and say they are not capable of the job, or that they have "gone too far". And make generalising statements about training, ethos etc.
What is missing is respect for the principal of law, not necessarily the upholders of it. It isn't a game to see who can get away with the most. It doesn't matter if one officer is better or worse than another. It also doesn't matter if one's opinion happens to coincide with the law or not; at the end of the day, it is THE LAW.
If people did a little more to respect law and order, one another, and the upholders of law, this country would be a whole lot nicer place to live in.
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Smokie I think you put that very well, and I will not add to it since at this hour I tend to make little sense.
Except to say that I agree, and that yes in an ideal world we would all respect one another - but sadly thius doesn't happen:(
HF
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Crazed
I really must disagree with you.
what they do have is a common blinkered set of views brought on by inadequate training, a grass roots ethos that covers up for each other when often one of their rank has gone way too far,
Not long ago I read in the news that a copper had nicked his colleaque when he found that his motor bike had false plates. It turned out that the guilty plod had 9 points on his license for speeding and as he was afraid of losing it, he used the police computer to find an unused number that he then attached to his bike. Anyway I reckon the copper who nicked him had a lot of courage, more than many of us.
There are things wrong with the police but I reckon you are way too extreme in your cynicism. Here is one thing wrong:
There is though one thing that does worry me. About 15 years ago my sister was going out with a motorcycle PC. He once gave me a ride on his (civilian) 1000 cc bike (he was not in uniform) and we did 100 mph on the M1. He would drive my parents to and from parties on the grounds that if he was stopped he would not be breathalysed or done for speeding as he was a copper. (Well that is what he told me anyway.) I recently mentioned this to a colleague and he mentioned that he had an uncle who was a retired PC and who a few years ago was furious to be done for speeding. He was usually let off when stopped for speeding when he mentioned that he was an ex-PC but on that occasion he was told "I am afraid you can't do that forever, it does run out you know". Now this is 2 samples out of 2 which I find worrying. Any coppers on this site care to comment? Do the police routinely ignore speeding by other coppers? Is there really a cosy cosy arrangement like the above?
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As one judge once said "this is a court of law not a court of justice" Or i think that what he said.
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Leif
I am not even going to try to deny there have been occasions when an ex/serving officer has been let off speeding etc. Why, because we come down to the discretion of the individual being exercised at the time and in view of the prevailing conditions.
Which is no different to how Joe Public is dealt with. I have stopped countless for speeding and not reported as I felt it more appropriate to deal with it by a flea in the ear than bringing the full weight of the law into play. So I admit to being a gormless plod and not doing my job.
If it helps at all, when I retired, I took up part-time employment driving victuals to Prisons in the NE.NW. (well I locked some up why not feed them). I was stopped once by a very young PC for wiping up a bit of double white line. Of course I tried for the sympathy option and told him my former occupation.
No dice, I had to pay my forty quid and collected 3 points (rape on a virginal Licence).
I didn't moan and take to my bed,. I was caught and rightly done and I admire the lad that did me.
(Don't believe me? I can show you my sin sheet)
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Leif - I (recently) went out with a girl who, as a student, had worked in the bar at the 'police officers club/mess/bar' or whatever it's called.
She had no axe to grind and Toads plod views are rarely vented outside the back room so she wasn't simply telling me what I wanted to hear. She said drink driving was rife. I picked her up on this because I don't know *anyone* who get's lashed and drives these days. She was adamant that a good 20 per cent would drink significant amounts (when she defined as more than 4 pints, but not a lot more than 4 pints) before driving.
She had been let off speeding but I think that's acceptable for the reasons DVD gives. If a few more people were let off trivial offences and a few more done for serious offences the police would be popular.
I am not even going to try to deny there have been occasions when an ex/serving officer has been let off speeding
Black rat stickers?
No dice, I had to pay my forty quid and collected 3 points (rape on a virginal Licence).
I'm shocked! It's starts with asaulting white lines then spirals into drug abuse, robbery, violent crime. Where's my magnum? Make my day, punk.
(Don't believe me? I can show you my sin sheet)
Nah, to easy.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Toad
>>I (recently) went out with a girl who, as a student, had worked in the bar at the 'police officers club/mess/bar' or whatever it's called.<<
So her Student days would be late 50's early 60's before the dreaded Road Safety Act. Yes, when I first joined we used to do some serious drinking but wages didn't allow the purchase of wheels like they have today. My wage as a Proby was £11 a week .
As I say the RSA and breathalyser put a stop to the sessions when one progressed to vehicle ownership as Force Policy was the boot if caught over the limit. In addition to any fine at Court, the sack would lead to waving goodbye to a nice Pension so nobody in their right mind will take the risk. Further C.C's became aware of the perils of drink and many Forces who had Bars at HQ closed then and went dry. The drink culture died.
DVD
(Re the Pension not given by right or free but as a result of donating 11 per cent on my wage each week for 30 years into a fund)
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So her Student days would be late 50's early 60's before the dreaded Road Safety Act.
" " <-- This is me not laughing. ;-)
Oddly I do beleive her. She was level headed and would not have lied. She also had a great deal off affection for the rozzers. However I did think at the time that logicaly it would be fairly foolish for someone in that situation to take the risk. Maybe she couldn't count to 4?
The drink culture died.
Be honest DVD you drank it all 'till there was none left, didn't you!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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DVD
Thanks for the posting and confirming that (in your experience) the practice I describe is not standard practice. That is at least reassuring. I can understand letting someone off speeding in a non dangerous manner. I was once let off a possible driving without due care charge after quite rightly being told off.
Toad: I find it hard to believe that Plod-R-Us would let go an officer who was driving while seriously bladdered (which I would be after 4 pints) given that I really do believe that individual PCs are basically honest and decent and concerned about safety. But you never know. Guess I'll keep me ears open for any other similar reports.
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Dozens of lives could be saved each year if police forces implemented national guidelines for police driver training and pursuits.
So says Jan Berry, Vice Chair of the Police Federation of England and Wales, in the wake of today's Police Complaints Authority report into road traffic accidents involving police vehicles.
The report was commissioned following a three fold increase in collision fatalities betwee '97-'98 and '01-'02, prompting an urgent review.
'Any death caused as a result of police driving is a tragedy. But as big a travesty is the fact that many forces are still failing to adopt national driver training guidelines which could reduce the risk of injuries or fatalities, not only to the public but the police officers also involved,' said Mrs Berry.
'Driver and pursuit training is still implemented in an ad hoc way, which is totally unsatisfactory. Chief constables need to be monitored to ensure they adopt the guidance and best practice they purport to support.'
The Federation's unease over driver training standards has been well documented and it continues to be alarmed by high numbers of serious accidents.
It is concernd that attitudinal training is not automatically included in three quarters of all force driver training courses and believes training to enable officers to judge risks and proportionality in pursuit driving is of equal importance to driving skills.
'Police officers often have to make complex decisions as to whether to pursue a suspect in limited time. We support the fact that the PCA doesn't seek to 'end pursuits, rather to reduce the risk to road users.' But we recognise that risk assessment training is vital to ensure incidents do not escalate unnecessarily and vehicles are not pursued where the risk to the public might outweigh the original reason for the pursuit,' added Mrs Berry.
In addition to pressing for more consistency in driver training, the Federation also supports the PCA's recommendation to improve training in pursuit commentaries for police passengers.
'The quality of communication between police vehicle occupants and the control room is vital. However, we do question how successful commentary training might be if the general move towards single crewing of vehciles continues,' added Mrs Berry.
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the police are now involved in more than 1 % of all road fatalities in the UK
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Based on 3,400 road fatalities per annum that would be at least 34.
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>>Based on 3,400 road fatalities per annum that would be at least 34
...which seems more than is likely to be accurate.
However, even if that is true, I fail to see how "dozens of lives could be saved each year if police forces implemented national guidelines for police driver training and pursuits".
Unless you truly believe that *EVERY* accident they are involved in would be avoided.
Sounds like your normal reactionery, police-hating spin to me.
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However, even if that is true, I fail to see how "dozens of lives could be saved each year if police forces implemented national guidelines for police driver training and pursuits".
Maybe those being pursued are also killing people/being killed as a result of police procedure - driving too close, inappropriate use of stingers etc.
I notice she doesn't specifically mention innocent lives.
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Dozens of lives could be saved if they went out and locked up a few drug abusers instead of going to TV to say that it doesn't matter 'cos everyone does it...
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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And having looked...
Of the fatalities, 5 were in vehicles not involved in the pursuit, 4 were pedestrians and 35 were either passengers or drivers of the pursued car.
Now, the 9 are obviously cause for serious concern. But that same report acknowledges the work that ACPO and the individual forces have been doing with regard to driver training.
But did you also look at how many of the 9 were killed by the Police Car, and how many were in fact killed by the car attempting to escape ?
Of course the police should be better drivers, but more lives would be saved if the oiks didn\'t break the law and then try to escape. Seems a bit rough to pin that on the police.
Of course, the police could never pursue anyone which would ensure that everyone driving a stolen car or a car with false plates would know that all they had to do was run. Sadly they would then all run and not only would more people be killed but we would be back to your whinging about the police not trying to catch law breakers.
However it remains a problem which needs to be addressed.
As for the 35, did you look at them ? e.g. a 14 year old boy losing control of a reliant robin at 90mph.
And I assume that none of the 35 would happen if people didn\'t try and run away from the police. So how about addressing that as well ?
Also, whilst it mentioned the increase in pursuit related deaths, it didn\'t addess whether or not more pursuits had taken place and the possible reasons for that.
Now I appreciate you said \"involved\" rather than \"to blame for\" but who gives a stuff about the 35 ? Not me, certainly. They shouldn\'t run.
As for the 9, how many of those were the fault of the police ? Lets assume that its 50%, because I really have no idea. that gives us a figure of 4.5 deaths, which are truly the issue.
Out of 3400, 4.5 would be <0.15% of the UK Road Deaths.
Whilst I also accept that speeding by civilians does not cause the 35% of deaths often spouted, I\'d bet like hell its an awful lot more than 0.15%.
Given that, whilst I agree that the Police should clean up their own act, it would appear that by your criteria of when action is required, Speed Cameras are totally justified.
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Oh dear Mark,
RE "However, even if that is true, I fail to see how "dozens of lives could be saved each year if police forces implemented national guidelines for police driver training and pursuits".
Unless you truly believe that *EVERY* accident they are involved in would be avoided.
Sounds like your normal reactionery, police-hating spin to me.
"
This spin is a direct quote from the police federation web site, which are paid to represent the ordinary bobby. Not my words. I can only assume that since the Pol Fed said it that it represents the view of ordinary bobbies.
Re your other hasty responses, remember the police were chasing people in previous years when the training was more appropriate etc. Of course I have sympathy with ordinary coppers doing their best - but their training no longer reflects the cars they are using or modern road design etc. I would have thought this much was easy to agree even for you.
As regards the previous comments from others that I should keep my black cap off until I’ve seen the evidence, remember I have personally witnessed some truly crap driving by police drivers in the recent past - and it saddens me greatly that this is allowed to continue.
Mark the PCA is paid to take a reasonable view on police policy and practise, and normally they too lean too far on the pro-police side of the fence. You really should wake up and smell the roses - the reality if there for all to see.
Cheers etc,
CI
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Crazed,
Do try and read things, even when they don\'t support your view.
>Re your other hasty responses,
What has \"hasty\" to do with anything ? If it has, the time between your note and my reply is longer than the time until your reply. Therefore I assume that you were even more \"hasty\" and therefore even less worthy of consideration.
>remember the police were chasing people in previous years when the training was more appropriate etc.
If the number of chases has doubled in the last two years, and I have no idea whether it has or not, but the number of fatalities has only increased by 50%, then that would point to three areas;
1) Police drivers have, in fact, improved.
2) The criteria for a chase may need to be revisited
3) The number of criminals using cars, or detection of same, has improved.
So clearly the picture is, at best, incomplete.
None of which takes away from a constant need to improve.
And as for the PCA reports, it sadly assumes rational or at least open minds will read it in an objective manner. Maybe we could get you a more appropriate translation.
\"Spin\" doesn\'t do many people much credit, but seems strangely appropriate when coming from blinkered minds.
And please do not refer to me as \"My dear Mark\", I am not \"yours\", I am not particularly \"dear\" and I wouldn\'t like that salutation even from someone I did respect.
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"And I assume that none of the 35 would happen if people didn't try and run away from the police. So how about addressing that as well ?"
If the yobbo's had been locked up none of them would have died.
It's quite simple if you jump red lights [1], take drugs or nick cars your behaviour is tolerated by the boy's in blue. If you're a elderly vicar at 39mph you will get proscecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
There was a time where the cheerful rozzer was a friend to the honest people of England. Now yuo'll only meet a rozzer if he's nocking you for speeding (usually by post) or on the end of a phone line giving you an incident number 'cos they can't be bothered to turn up.
[1] And it's not just MRLB, many of the pro-police people here have had convictions which says a lot.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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TofTH has a valid point when he says that the problem is the changed perception that the public have of the police.
Two factors come to mind: firstly there seem to be fewer police as a proportion of the total population, therefore there is little or no contact other than in times of crisis.
Secondly the greater proportion of the population who are motorists and therefore when they do come into contact with the police it is in the context of seeing a blue light behind them and wondering, usually needlessly but the sensation is there nevertheless, whether one has trandressed a motoring law or failed to see a speed limit or camera.
One of the most pleasurable sensations is the relief when a set of blues and twos passes you and carries on ahead. Regardless of whether one has any reason to believe that one might have been the object of their attention.
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Perception is indeed important. Certainly I was less than impressed at the reaction of the police to an attempted mugging (I was attacked by about 10 youths) and 2 car break ins. Basically the reaction was "we will do nothing" and I think this generates bad will. However, I have learnt from this forum that the reason the police take this attitude is lack of resources. So they can't win can they? They don't have the resources to do the job 'cos we don't given them the money and they get flack 'cos they don't chase up all crimes. And of course this government have initiatives that force 'em to target specific crimes at the expense of others.
Mmm. I feel a rant coming on ...
Unless I am mistaken most crimes (or a significant proportion) are drug related i.e. drug users stealing to fuel the habit. At the risk of stoking the embers I reckon that the sooner we distribute free drugs to the idiots who want to damage their bodies the better. (Though in point of fact heroin of a known purity is relatively safe. It is the impurities, unknown concentration and dirty needles that kill.) Organised crime would lose a big source of income, scum bags would stop stealing from motorists, grannies etc, and instead visit the local government controlled scum bag heroin shooting gallery with medical staff and counsellers on hand and the police could then get back to the traditional "Ello ello what's goin' on 'ere then" routine. But of course this is way too contentious to implement.
Yup. It was a rant.
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Good stuff Mark, and powerful too.
but who gives a stuff about the 35 ? Not me, certainly. They shouldn't run.
The death sentence seems a little harsh for stealing a car though. Even if it's self-inflicted.
Unless they steal my car in which case it's too good for 'em. (Other peoples hypocrisy is the problem. Mine is fine).
Even if you reject that, remember the 35 include passengers and there's no specific offence of sitting in a stolen car AFAIK. So they're innocent victims like the pedestrians.
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oh dear, not my dear
and oh dear was used in its traditional sense of frustration being expressed and not implying any respect at all
you really should get out more and see what happens on the streets
why dont we just try and see what we can agree on ?
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>>you really should get out more and see what happens on the streets
Funny how often you say that and then ignore my reply. I spend time on the streets, I just have failed to be be victimised and mistreated by the police at anything close to the thousands of times it has happened to you.
I remember your comments from a year ago or so. I have been lving here for 6 months now and have not changed my views on the police. Would you like an address to send the beer to ?
>>why dont we just try and see what we can agree on ?
And leave you to produce your incessant, anti-police propaganda unchallenged ? I think not.
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re the beer, maybe hj could offer you one re the CVT nissan issue he was mistaken on ?
ha ha
you are funny
i am passionate that the police service should improve
i am not anti police
and you have just rambled on arguing directly with the pol fed and the PCA, neither of which are known for incessant, anti-police propaganda
i really do think its you who needs to think about this in a little bit more depth
there is even a copper in an ealrier thread who talks of taking a junior officer to the side for a quiet word about their driving - are you failing to take this in ?
ha ha, suggest you chill a little
i support good honest hardworking coppers
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Police do (for the most part) a blurdy good job esp when having to deal with the numerous idiot drivers and plethora of scum on the streets. Certainly a job I wouldn't want to do.
But I do feel that they do not call off pursuits quickly enough if there is a chance of death/injury. Personally I feel that if a car thief kills himself then that is one less criminal on the streets. However I think it unacceptable that pedestrians get knocked over with what seems (but is prob down to increased press coverage) ever increasing regularity by panda cars going to some (relatively unimportant) crime. I think the training should not only focus on how to handle a car but when to decide that the chase should be called off. I'm sure that this does happen but obviously (by the stats) there is not enough emphasis on it.
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>>>I support good honest hardworking coppers<<<<
Aaahhhhhh, nice to know we are friends Crazed. I was getting worried.
DVD
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>>>I support good honest hardworking coppers<<<< Aaahhhhhh, nice to know we are friends Crazed. I was getting worried.
I support coppers like Carter of the Sweeny.
If the police fishtailed around in unmarked Mk1 granada's firing shoootah's out of their motah's the world would be a much more interesting place!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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