Hi Ben,

Some drivers of bikes, cars, HGVs, are idiots and react very badly indeed to having their behaviour challenged. You can't talk sense to them. They're probably looking for an excuse to lamp someone. I wouldn't bother trying to engage in any sort of dialogue with them, be it lights, hand signals, or whatever.

HS

I wonder if the biker's companions will now alter their driving styles? I'd like to think so, but then again...

Any one who spends an amount of time on the M1/M25/M60/M4/M3 et al in any rush hour period knows that poor standards of biking are not down to just a few 'bad apples'.

Every day I experience and try to keep out of the way of bikers undertaking, squeezing between cars, weaving across four lanes, in fact doing anything to avoid being stationary or slowing down for even a few seconds. imo their behaviours are no worse or better than car drivers; but they are much more vulnerable and just as dangerous to other road users.

Bikers are no different from other road users in their attitudes and (deteriorating) standards. I am only surprised that it is difficult for some to see and accept this.

Regards

R40

Edited by R40 on 27/06/2010 at 07:29

So, 2.6% of the traffic yet involved in 25% of the crashes. That's a factor of 10 roughly, ergo, riding a bike is ten times as dangerous as driving a car.

Some of it is clearly a skills deficit.

But ... We've seen years of road design which pays almost no regard to the needs of the motorcyclist. More paint (slippery when wet) on the road surface, even on bends. Very poor road surfaces (including the horrible chippings on the surface), metal drain covers still used and still placed on the bends etc.

Motorcyclists are amongst the most skilled on the road (if you assume like the authorities do that testing and age lead to skill), with tests for mopeds, small bikes and big bikes (and no riding big bikes until you're 21).

Meanwhile cars get safer and safer. Whilst putting bikers at risk with bigger A pillars, and making the drivers feel so much safer that they'll happily increase their risk level by using mobile phones at the wheel.

PS. I think you'll find that riding a bike is a lot more than ten times more dangerous than driving a car when calculated per mile travelled.

I have nothing against bikers,as in general they cause no problems for me, and I'm happy to move left a bit so they can overtake, and make good progress. But I do object to many riding with lights on full beam. Is it really safer to blind oncoming traffic. It is not uncommon that I cannot look straight ahead when a bike approaches because their lights are so bright. If I do, I end up dazzled for some time after they have passed. At night it means that all I see is a blaze of light ahead, with no idea about what might be there. I know they (presumably) have lights on to be seen, fair enough, but why not just on enough to alert other road users. Anyway, rant over.

Leif: Please DO NOT move over for bikers. I have seen drivers move over "a little bit" and take out a cyclist on their inside. It is unnecessary as WE decide when it is safe to overtake, not you. As I have said before motorists would be better drivers if they learned to ride a bike.

Yes bikers sometimes drive with full beam but so do motorists. Motorists are particularly bad at light management, often driving with rear fogs blazing, How many of you, and I'm a driver too, sit in traffic with their foot jammed on the brake dazzling those behind. You have handbrakes, use them.

Then of course there are those with inadequate lights, saddest are the one-eyed Volvos, those who drive with sidelights in atrocious conditions and those heros who never light up until it is almost completely dark. Madness

Oh and please indicate in all situations, imagine an invisible vehicle behind you.

Share the roads, drive safely, drive aware and spare the waste of life. You know it makes sense.

Bikerkid said: Leif, presumptious of you to know whem it is safe for me to overtake. The guy who took out the cyclist probably had your "I know better" view of things, but he didn't.

I believe you are getting confused with bike day time running lights and high beam. No need to use high beam especially in good sunny conditions, e.g. today, and you will find bikers in general will use day-time running lights. They may appear bright to you, if so try some quality shades they may help.

If you are dazzled on a sunny day then remind me not to travel in Berks, Herts, Beds and Surrey.

Remember to hold your position on the road, we can make our own arrangements.

Remember to use the handbrake too, handbrake first then neutral, feet off brake and clutch....but I'm sure you do, or at least say you do.

Stay safe and lives will be saved.

I don't care for the condescension in your first sentence and I don't don't care for being ordered about by you. Go talk down to someone else matey boy.

I have no idea when it is safe for you to overtake. All I know is when it is safe for me to move left. It is up to the bikelist (or whoever) to decide what is safe for them. I assume they have the skills to ride safely.

And I don't see why I should wear sunglasses (if that is what you mean by shades) because of bikes.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the handbrake nonsense. But it seems to be another example of you rather arrogantly telling me what to do.

Leif, I think we should end this now. I detect a certain amount of anger anger and overconfidence in one's own abilities make unhappy bedfellows.

I have seen it from both sides of the fence and would not like to see another fatality caused by mistakingly encouraging one to overtake, and that is exactly what moving over does.

Tell me what do you do if the following vehicle declines to overtake? drive in the gutter?

At the risk of telling you what to do you should not need to move over if you are correctly positioned on the road.

Deep down you know it makes sense.

Please do not expect me to reply to any further posting on this matter.

Think...other roadusers!

Yes, I am angry about your first post. You call me presumptious, you insult me by saying I drive in such a manner as to kill someone, then you tell me what to do, and you add some meaningless phrases about clutch and first gear which left me baffled. Your posting was incredibly arrogant.

Your postings are full of assumptions. You assume something about brake lights which baffles me. You assume I drive in such a way as to potentially kill someone. You assume I drive in the gutter. You assume I endanger others. How about not making assumptions? How about some manners? How about basing your comments on facts rather than what you think is the case? How about asking me in what circumstances I would move left, and by how much? Don't let facts get in the way of a good fight eh.

Do I move left into the gutter? No. Course I don't. You know, next time I am on the A3, in slow moving traffic, and a bike is behind me, I think I will still move left to allow the bike to overtake, which he/she would not otherwise have been able to do so. I know this makes me dangerous in your eyes, but hey, I guess I'm just a maniac.

One thing I suspect we do agree on is that some bikes squeeze between cars on motorways, and this is dangerous. I certainly do not try to encourage that behaviour, but if a biker is daft enough to do so, then I will move slightly to one side. I prefer to move to the left lane to allow them to overtake. And would I encourage a bike to overtake with fast oncoming vehicles, no.

This does not hide the point I made which is that many bikelists ride with lights that dazzle other road users, and I don't think they need to, and I also think it is potentially dangerous. I suspect that struck a raw nerve with you, which is why you decided to give me a good verbal kicking.

On a side issue, this forum has changed markedly since the downtime. When the forum came back up, I posted several questions on the "I have a question" board, and got loads of rude sarcastic unhelpful comments. I was taken aback. And here I posted what I think was a reasonable comment, and got a verbal kicking. This place used to be more civilised. Now it is "attack first ask questions later".

Leif, the point about brakelights is that they dazzle traffic behind and if one is stuck in traffic it's more polite to set the handbrake rather than cover the footbrake.

On the other hand politeness is not something our 'Bikerkid' fellow seems to understand. It's typical of the arrogant selfishness I've witnessed from bikers on the road, something to do with the adrenalin I should imagine.

At least he has had the decency to sling his hook.

And me, John... I have always tried to give those who wish to make progress quicker than I a bit more room to overtake... and to be lectured about what is in front of us is condecending in the extreme... Don't you think thats where we are looking before we make such a move?!

Bikerkid, you do yourself and other bikers no favours by the tone and content of your posts... and that comes from someone with a full bike licence.

(Avant, sorry, your last post and mine clashed... I tend to agree with you, it started off as an attack on bikers and it seems that the worm has turned and they are attacking car drivers... time to close?)

Edited by b308 on 10/07/2010 at 20:04

It looks like it has run its course,i must admit if i was riding a motorcycle i would have lights on in daytime to be seen to protect myself.Flashing a light at someone is often percieved as agression unless used as in given way to someone.On the continent flashing lights often means get out of my way.The majority of bikers are responsible in my opnion never had any trouble with anyone on a motorcycle.Using brake lights in a car when stopped instead of the handbrake is strange,live is short lets enjoy it:)

I would also ride a bike with lights on, dipped of course. Yes, most bikers are fine, far better than car drivers and pedal bikelists. I've only once had trouble with bikers.

OK time to open up. I am 61, I kid you not, and am a car driver first and foremost but have had a bike licence since 1971. I did have a competition licence now lapsed and have driven a number of racing, sports and rally cars. I have also driven coaches, double deckers and a fire engine. Not boasting but just to show I am not a novice, although everyday I still learn a bit more.

Dead cyclists can't testify as to whether someone moved over or edged over although to me moving over suggests a more extreme manouver. Not sure the court would have given much credence to mitigating circumstances that he moved over to let a motorbike pass.

That though is a bit of a side issue, upsetting though it was. My main concern is the continuing pops at bikers, It is all stereotyping, "dazzled by high beam, given the finger, fetish clothing, loud pipes, adrenalin and speed". Surely, apart from fetish clothing perhaps, we have all been subject to the same problems by car and lorry drivers., while I don't think there have been too many cases of bikers using mobile phones, texting or smoking at the controls.

All I say is live and let live, share the road and drive and ride safely.

Please lets have less whinging, any I may be guilty of are in light of fair play, I hope. It just leads to a game of Top Trumps, so my Grandchildren tell me, with each and every additional posting seeming to say that happened to me too, but it was worse than yours. Lets face it the roads are dangerous and there are some idiots out there, but we know that so lets accept it and move on.

Sorry if I've upset some of you but if we save one life then it's worth it.

Interesting ftom a psycology point of view that some of you seem to dismiss my comments on the grounds of my name and perceived experience, another case of stereotyping, surely even the less experienced should be listened to as well.

The Government has spent millions on the Think Bike type campaigns, and I ask you why you think that is and why it is aimed at motorists.

Bikers aren't all bad and neither I'm happy to say are car and lorry drivers.

DC

Just the once but personally that was enough, I wonder how many deaths do you consider to be appropriate for me to have a strong view on this subject?

I am sure that the driver in question was also confident that he could read the road ahead too, he may even have checked his inside mirror but it happened.

In general I really think you are taking this personally as an afront to your driving skills, it is a general message that every move can have a consequence.

I'm still happy to learn but sometimes the lesson can be a very sad occasion

Kind regards D

It's very nice to talk of learning but when roads have signs up warning bikers and the police fly helicopter patrols and the routes are notorious for bike deaths AND bikers continue to drive madly as SOME (not all ) do, then learning is clearly not working.

Either that or bikes make normal humans become morons...

I refer to the well known death roads around Manchester (Cat and Fiddle) and Buxton..

With police numbers being cut back, I expect deaths will rise ...:-(

Balance?

I am balanced.. Only some bikers are morons, only some kill themselves. They are not all the same.

Stop putting constructions on my words which I clearly tried to avoid.

But it is obvious to anyone - purely based on the facts of road injuries and deaths that bikes - which are much less tolerant of accidents due to their nature - are driven by a significant minority who are either technically incompetent or foolhardy.

The casualty figures do not lie...

Edited by madf on 12/07/2010 at 17:41

I agree - this thread has run it`s course.

thread locked

oilrag

Edited by oilrag on 12/07/2010 at 22:01