The main reason manufacturers are forced down this route is because of the litigious society in the US. Fortunately we are not trying to copy that litigious approach in any way.
I am so glad I never have to watch all those adverts for lawyers promoting law suits for any possible reason like they do in the US.
Edited by Pugugly on 28/01/2010 at 10:46
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Makes the UK a great place to dump carp cars though, and lots of other shoddy goods and services. More fool us.
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<
I don't know what's going on here, but you've done a complete U-turn since protesting about another poster's view about Americans' lack of intelligence. I notice that a number of messages have been removed from this thread. If this comment was directed at any other nation, there would rightly be accusations of racist overtones. I request that the moderators remove the sentence that I have pasted above.
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i see the same thing
post changed to suit ononon
not happy
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The main reason manufacturers are forced down this route is because of the litigious society in the US. Fortunately we are not trying to copy that litigious approach in any way. The UK is far too intelligent to copy a culture from a brainless country like the US.
Absolutely. So occasionally the throttle gets jammed, no great deal. I expect the odd "fatal" fault from time to time.....after all, we can learn a lot through accidents!
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So Toyota take responsibility for something that could be a problem for some people...sounds good business practice to me, far better than waiting for umpteen tyres to shred before before bothering.
As for the perfect UK not having ambulance chasing law practices...radio TV and poster ads have been here for years aimed at the greedy in our society....no win no fee where's there blame there's a claim mentality, and we are worse for it.
Unfortunately we always seem to get US trends a few years later...drug dealers people traffickers and fast food outlets (almost called em restaurants..idiot) for example, don't get the good things like cheap fuel and the right to defend oneself and home.
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> aimed at the greedy in our society....no win no fee where's there blame there's a claim mentality, and we are worse for it.
Which is exactly the problem the law industry is trying to address at the moment. The Jackson report has just been published which sets out some recommendations in this direction.
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>>aimed at the greedy in our society....no win no fee where's there blame there's
a claim mentality and we are worse for it.>>
True - when my son attended our local A&E recently after breaking a leg, it seemed that every medical advice leaflet that I picked up was sponsored by lawyers. No - we weren't tempted ;-)
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CBS report
tinyurl.com/yezrff7
Some points from the link
Toyota's suspension of U.S. sales on an unprecedented scale
Now Avis and other car rental companies have temporarily removed Toyotas from their fleets
In addition, the problem could spread to Europe, where a similar accelerator part is being used, said Toyota spokeswoman Ririko Takeuchi
From the Toyota site
tinyurl.com/yczgyqm
What if you experience a sticking accelerator pedal while driving?
Each circumstance may vary, and drivers must use their best judgment, but Toyota recommends taking one of the following actions:
? If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.
? Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.
? If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.
? If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.
? If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine. Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.
Also a list of US models affected
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A brainless country ?? Before passing such remarks I suggest you type F22 into your search engine box, read , then tell me the USA is a brainless country !!
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Whether US *culture* is different enough to Western Europe to cause individual drivers to lose their lives or start lawsuits is a side issue.
The issue here is that Toyota seem to have a real problem on their hands and reading the press this Morning - have had to cease production of several models in their range.
This may be the biggest problem ever facing them. Think of the potential impact on sales and the customer perception of quality and reliability.
We have seen Merc allegedly slide down the perceived quality scale due to rust and allegedly VW due to other issues.
It seems it can`t be taken for granted that that even Toyota is static at the top of the pile of quality.
Perceived quality being something else of course - and it seems it`s still possible to get caught with your pants down while wearing the Emperors new clothes.
Edited by oilrag on 28/01/2010 at 07:36
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I thought the sticking accelerator was caused by brain-dead drivers not being able to cope with slipping floor mats. SO why suspend production of 8 models for a week??
My cars have fittings to prevent the floor mats slipping. Simples!
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Credit Toyota for a positive response over this, but their is a solution buy
a Honda...
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According to the BBC Toyota shedding 750 jobs in the UK
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I have a friend at Toyota HQ. Apparently Lexus are in dire straits over here at the mo.
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75000 recalled in China as well - looks a very expensive mess.
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This is how a reputation of building quality/reliable cars is lost. Mercedes did this years ago. And what about SAAB's of old.
Toyota may never fully recover from this. Imagine what this size of problem would do to the like of GM though!
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Toyota's main USP has been supposed reliability and quality of engineering. If they lose this, there isn't much else going for them in my eyes.
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Toyota are just doing the honourable thing, most other manufacturers would drag their heals until there's a class action suit against them and even then only admit the problem in the States. Look at the Ford Explorer debacle for example! How many people died before Ford finally took notice of a problem they were well aware of? Toyota have taken swift action over a much less serious fault.
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It's true. In a way, Toyota are in a no-win situation here. Do the re-call and risk tarnishing their image, don't do the re-call and risk bad press, in turn tarnishing their image...
Given that either way the brand takes a hit, they didn't have to do the re-call, so by doing it, it shows their good intentions.
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It `doesn`t count` if it`s a recall for Toyota. However had it been Fiat there would be a great self preening and snorting derision.
Not on here of course ;-)
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Obviously the news has caught up but our kid works at Burnaston and says they have been told 750 voluntarily or up to 25% pay cut.
I think this is the tip of the iceberg and within time many more car companies will be following suit. I think the bigger ones will be hardest hit as the were most able to fill the demand when it was needed. Now that demand will not be there for a good few years to come as banks will not lend and people are trying to pay down debt.
I think recent times have taught people that we cannot keep spending and borrowing in the way that has caused this bubble to burst - unless you are a banker and then GB will use our taxes to bail you out and pay your bonus.
Mr Brown was actually a very clever chancellor for a time when he engineered it for the British people to take on huge levels of debt and keep the economy out of recession. Now that his bubble has burst he cannot rely on the consumer to get us out of trouble like they are in Europe and is why we have only scraped out of recession but most business leaders think we will be back in recession before too long. Simply as a result of the UK people and government now being in debt up to their eye balls.
If only we were all bankers !!!!!!!!!!
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From the recall notice that Toyota have put on their website, it is not just a case of mats slipping. Wear in the pedal mechanism is the issue, together with trapping of the car mat by the pedal - which itself is a danger.
The pedal is an item that Toyota have bought in.
Toyota car mats do have plastic fittings which prevent the driver's mat moving (and very successfully) - my 2009 Auris has these, as did my 2006 Corolla, and our previous two Corollas from the 90's.
Some Ford Transits have the same accelerator pedal - so Ford are affected as well, but only to a very small degree.
Yes it is embarrassing for Toyota - but all credit to them for acting quickly. It's a shame that other manufacturers don't do the same - two examples: VAG when they had hundreds of cars with failed coil packs across the whole group, but not enough spare coil packs to repair the cars; Renault with the Clio bonnet catch issue that was highlighted by BBC Watchdog.
My limited experience of a recall with my previous Mazda 323 (possible loosening of a bolt in the exhaust manifold resulting in poor running, required 4 hours workshop time to replace the suspect bolts), was that the recall process works well
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I agree auristocrat - I have seen the Toyota recall process and it is very good (I do struggle to believe some on here thought that it was all down to slipping mats !!).
When I have observed it they act quickly and tend to compensate as a result - I have seen Toyota dealers giving bottles of wine and £10 petrol for the inconvenience of a recall.
(Maybe we should buy shares in vineyards in the short term :-).
They would treat this as an opportunity to demonstrate they know how to treat customers when stuff goes wrong.
That is usually the difference between a good company and a bad one.
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Having watched the news report it is actually wider than Toyota as the Aygo is part of the recall. This means thousands of C1s and 107s should also be seeing a dealer visit.
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It will be very, very interesting to see how PSA deal with this.
There are two ways of dealing with a recall. Either you admit the issue quickly and sort it out (Toyota), or you are dragged kicking and screaming into an eventual, and humiliating climbdown after years of bad press (Renault with the Clio bonnets).
Where do PSA stand here, and will their past illustrious record have any bearing?
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Having watched the news report it is actually wider than Toyota as the Aygo is part of the recall. This means thousands of C1s and 107s should also be seeing a dealer visit.
Much, much wider.
Separately, Ford said it would be suspending production of a van made and sold in China that has an accelerator pedal made by the same firm at the centre of Toyota's investigations.
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And indeed they will. PSA are recalling up to 100000 C1s and 107s
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Toyota seem to be doing the decent thing - they seem to be damned if they do, damned if they don't.
The Burnaston problem goes deeper: apart from the reputation for reliability, the Auris and Avensis haven't got much in the way of USPs compared with rivals. They don't often feature in group road tests or as Autocar's choice rivals at the end of their main road test.
The Auris is particular has bombed: it should have stayed as a Corolla (the change was only a facelift, and anyway Corolla (crown in Latin) is a better name than Auris (ear in Latin). They should also have offered the 1.8 engine in the UK - we hired one of these in New Zealand last year and it was lively and very pleassant to drive.
We haven't seen Niceguy Eddy recently on here: he's a Toyota dealer principal and his views on the above would be interesting.
Edited by Avant on 30/01/2010 at 00:07
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The Auris wasn't 'only a facelift'. I've owned a 2006 Corolla and now have the 2009 Auris. Since when have facelifts: been physically bigger in length, width and height; had a different floorpan - the rear floor is almost flat comparer to the Corolla; had totally different interiors; had a larger boot; had a different bodyshell with three windows along the side rather than two (quarterlight type , front door, rear door); had different front doors; etc.
Yes the Auris could have sold better and been better promoted. The new 1.33 with stop start system and six speed gearbox is excellent.
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There's a known problem with the Verso brake discs, in that they are prone to scoring. This has affected mine and will be sorted out under warranty. Took it to the local Toyota dealer - no quibbles or arguments - seems like good customer service so far. Looks like the accelerator pedal on my car isn't affected.
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Video issued by Toyota about the recall:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMFJV6BQMSU
Apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't see it when scanning this thread
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Toyota has refined its list of models affected and answered my question about the Corolla Verso, which is in the Not Affected column. Full list is here: www.toyota.co.uk/recall/index.html
The video is on the same page.
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Here's another couple of links to show the shim that Toyota have pressed up in order to fix the sticky throttle issue:
(Link removed. Speculatively alarmist.)
This is the step-by-step manual from Toyota for their technicians apparently.
images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/02/Tech-Instruct...f
Edited by Honestjohn on 05/02/2010 at 18:39
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Not sure anyone will be impressed with the fix if it's just a shim.
I overcome a problem on an Apple iBook system board by making a shim out of a bit of plastic. It's not fixed the problem with the system board - it just put pressure on the poor joint and it works most of the time. The original design fault (pressure from a power cable running over a chip) has not been fixed.
If I had a car with the problem peddle this solution would worry me.
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I find the hype and whipping up of hysteria by the various panic-mongers in and around the media (including the BBC, I sadly have to say) really quite repulsive to be honest and I sense some kind of anti Toyota witch- hunt going on. As far as I can see Toyota are acting in an entirely ethical, respectable way, for what appears to be a very low failure incidence and overall risk. I have to agree with NC and AE on this. I hope Toyota are lining up some heavy-weight lawyers to challenge the potentially libelous remarks of the US government, and others. It will be very interesting come the day when GM and/or Ford are faced with a similar exercise (remember the Ford Pinto and the Ranger) and I do wonder if there's a large element of sour grapes and trade protectionism at the heart of this?
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I find the hype and whipping up of hysteria by the various panic-mongers in and around the media (including the BBC I sadly have to say) really quite repulsive
As far as the media goes, isn't that what they do though? It's just another story they can blow up to make more newsworthy.
Edited by Focus {P} on 05/02/2010 at 13:57
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As far as the media goes isn't that what they do though? It's just another story they can blow up to make more newsworthy.
Well, yes, but as Bazza says, it's repulsive. It's also irresponsible: reports last night said that people shouldn't use their Toyotas as they'd be uninsured if they crashed because of the fault. Now the record has been set straight by the Assiciation of British Insurers saying that the cars would be insured. Doubtless if this episode leads to job losses at Toyota's plant in Derbyshire or at dealerships the same media vultures would be crying crocodile tears at the plight of the workers.
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>>As far as the media goes, isn't that what they do though? It's just another story they can blow up to make more newsworthy.
I'm inclined to agree with Bazza, NC, & AE, and feel that the media have made a bigger storm out of this story than they did with previous stories of the same genre.
Perhaps it is related to the old journalist's saying: "When a dog bites a man, that is not news. But if a man bites a dog, that is news." In the same way, "Millions of Renaults have potentially dangerous fault" is not news, and gets buried on page 4. However "Millions of Toyotas have potentially dangerous fault" is big news.
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Well yes but as Bazza says it's repulsive. It's also irresponsible: reports last night said that people shouldn't use their Toyotas as they'd be uninsured if they crashed because of the fault.
The frustrating thing is also - you can understand why other car manufacturers deny everything and then just issue a small recall notice when they really really have to. I mean, VW is a huge company and have had problems with their ABS systems. If they had gone public and said "yeah our ABS is duff" there would have been similar media hubbub. But I bet many people - even with VWs - have ever heard of this failure because it's been kept of the quiet.
I think Toyota has done the right thing - it's a shame that some areas of the media are panning them for it
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The Toyota CEO is inviting questions on the social media site Digg. You pose a question and then other users vote which ones get onto the list of the ones that he has to answer Link here:
bit.ly/dqPgMe
Some rather tricky ones on there already.
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Being a Which? member, I subscribe to the weekly Which? Car Newsletter. Which? 's ethos is all about helping the consumer, consumer rights, etc. They've covered the Toyota recall in this weeks newsletter, are independent, and have put things into perspective:
"Toyota's sticking accelerator recall grew into media hysteria. For any Toyota customers contemplating never to drive their car again, some perspective: globally, there have been 2,000 acceleration complaints out of 20m Toyotas sold. That?s a one in 10,000 chance of your car being affected."
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...remember the Ford Pinto and the Ranger...
Well, you wouldn't be able to remember the Pinto and the Ranger if it wasn't for the same media which some of you seem so keen to knock.
Of course this story is news, I can't remember a recall involving so many mass market models and manufacturers.
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Of course this story is news, I can't remember a recall involving so many mass market models and manufacturers.................
Yes, agree it is news.I'm quite happy about that, but what I find disturbing is that I've been listening to reports whipping up fear for owners and quite honestly exaggerating the safety issue here. I'm not going into detail but a well known motoring journo on a well known national radio station recommending that people don't drive their Toyotas. I think that's irresponsible journalism.
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... I think that's irresponsible journalism...
Motoring journalists - in common with most feature writers - are not used to dealing with anything serious such as a news story.
Many will not have any recognised training and will not have served their 'apprenticeship' doing golden weddings, lost dogs, progressing to council meetings, dealing with the three nines services, courts, interviewing a wide range of people, and so on.
All this stands a journalist in good stead when something with a bit of an edge comes along.
A lot of the sports hacks are in the same position.
They're fine with 'Smith kicks it to Jones', but when Smith kicks Jones and Smith is arrested, they haven't a clue.
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I think the main point of this recall is the fact that Toyota have held there hands up and admitted that a problem exists and have behaved as a responsible motor manufacturer should .
My opinion is you only find out how good a car insurance company are is when you have to make a claim and the same with car manufacturers do they handle the problem in a responsible way .
I am afraid the press would rather have a headline "Are Toyota Vehicles Safe " than "Toyota Recalls Vehicles as a Precautionary Measure "
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i recall twice having a throttle cable snap and the revs going up to the max, once in a cherry while on the m1. the other in a metro. so i guess this must have happened on thousands of cars
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The car in front is a Toyota - well, you'd be worried if it was behind, wouldn't you? :)
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And this morning-HONDA-recall due to cars catching fire.
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So why is it in today's Telegraph?? or has a death in South Africa raised it's prominence?
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The car in your front room is a Toyota, surely?
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a toyota came towards me as i walked and i jumped on a low wall
the driver wasnt amused though
but hey made me laugh
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From the News section on the right...
''24. Is this problem the fault of the company which supplied the accelerator pedal components?
Toyota takes responsibility for the quality of its vehicles.''
Some other car makers, indeed some politicians could do with going to the Toyota school of ethics.
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Some other car makers indeed some politicians could do with going to the Toyota school of ethics.
Actually Toyota have known about problems with sticking accelerator pedals in their cars since 2008 but were publicly in denial before the high profile accidents at the end of 2009. Therefore I find all the "going beyond the call of duty" tub thumping from Toyota a bit rich to be honest. They took a risk by keeping quiet about it to prevent the costs and bad publicity a recall would entail and got caught out.
Have to admit the blatant protectionist statements of Ray LaHood the US transport secretary, telling people to stop driving their Toyotas, were also really obnoxious.
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I suppose it would be too much to expect, that the insurers absolutly swingingly load the premium of anyone who claims that a sticky accelerator pedal "made" them crash, or was responsible in any way for their loss of control of the car.
Or even better refuse to insure them.
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Interesting to read the media reports of GM and the like launching opportunistic sales drives to target disgruntled Toyota owners. Risky business now that the bar is raised and consumer power is on a roll. It could so easily backfire. I would guess that a recall on this scale would break just about any other company. I suspect Toyota will learn from this, do their root cause work and come back even stronger. Toyoda may have to stand down, as it happened on his watch - that's the way of big corporations. There will be a focus on component quality and some suppliers will be dropped. Of course, there is damage to sales and reputation and share price, though probably mostly temporary.
Other manufacturers such as VW with their ABS problems must be dreading the morning post!
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As a long time owner of Toyota vehicles and actually owning one of the cars which have been recalled I believe that in the long run it is a good thing for the motor industry and for Toyota but must add any person who has had an accident as result of this problem have my sympathy
For too long motor manufacturers have been trying to ignore safety problems concerning some of there vehicles and no manufacturer are exempt!!
It was highlighted recently that one manufacturer ignored complaints about a bonnet release catch being faulty and allowing the bonnet to fly up ,another manufacturer the hand brake was slipping off all of which could have had disastrous results .
Other manufacturers may be crowing at the moment but hopefully they will all learn from Toyota's mistakes.
I hope Toyota will now concentrate on parts quality again and which is to be honest what made them the reliable manufacturer they are!!
Edited by cuthbert on 08/02/2010 at 19:58
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Some happy Toyota owners:
' news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/8508142.stm '
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What would concern me most about this recall is what other inferior third-party parts have Toyota and others bought in to reduce cost. In particular, how many parts made or designed by CTS are in the various cars -- seems they may not be trustworthy.
Toyota built their reputation on Japanese-sourced components, built by Toyota or their subsidiaries. Not anonymous American concerns. They have less control over these parts.
Also notice how Honda quietly slipped that airbag recall through in the wake of all this fuss. Now there was a dangerous fault -- airbags overinflating and throwing shards of metal everywhere. I wonder what foreign third party these came from?
This is the start of something IMO -- the recalls are only going to get bigger when cheap parts sourced from third parties and put into a massive parts bin. Problems are noticed later (and the parts manufacturer certainly isn't going to come forward in a hurry) and when the recall takes place it's on a massive, global scale.
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It's an interesting one that Teves sensor.
From reading back on your posts HJ VW and VOSA have said that this is not a safety issue as they only deal with faults that come on suddenly and are likely to cause death or injury.
I'd be interested to hear how they compare this sensor with the Toyota faults.
From what I can make out this sensor is far more likely to fail without warning than the faulty pedal which Toyota claim is a gradual failure and I'm inclined to believe that. So, from a layman's perspective the first of their two criteria would appear to more closely match the Teves fault than the CTS one.
As for likelihood of causing death, well I'm inclined to think that both are in the realms of the very unlikely without significant driver negligence. In the case of the pedal the fault will have most likely given fair warning first, and any semi-alert driver should be able to compensate. In the case of the sensor, it seems to me that it is possible that this could catch a driver out if he's driving on the edge of the available traction and the ESP fails to activate when expected, or worse half-way through a marginal manouvre. Both, therefore I would have thought would have a theoretical, though unlikely chance of harming a responsible and aware driver.
So yes, I would say that if one should be recalled then really so should the other -- although the cost of replacing these modules would be massively more expensive than the pedals, and if millions of cars are involved it could conceivably cause VW significant financial problems.
I have to agree though that the fact this isn't being publicised, especially given the higher apparent incidence is puzzling.
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