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Personally I'm fed up with people dithering about whatever they're driving. Many drivers seem to have a complete lack of confidence in the snow and therefore the speed of traffic in general is greatly reduced, presumably adding to the snarl ups described. Fortunately I'm not much affected out in rural land and the Golf does just fine. Mostly down to driving techniques I think. Anyway Motorprop, you said: ''the high position is excellent in dealing with speed bumps , pot holes and other raised obstacles''. Exactly how does a high driving position assist with the cars ability to tackle such obstacles???? I bet if you lowered your seat the car would perform much the same!
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QUOTE:...""Personally I'm fed up with people dithering about whatever they're driving. Many drivers seem to have a complete lack of confidence in the snow and therefore the speed of traffic in general is greatly reduced,""
They sound like the sensible drivers! There's good reason to go very slow in snow. A fast driver in the snow will also cause snarl-ups when they inevitabley spin or slide into something.
When I had a Land Rover, the only time that I needed it because my ordinary car couldn't cope with the snow, the damn thing wouldn't start!
It's not safe to drive a 4x4 any faster than an ordinary car in slippery conditions because it can't stop any quicker.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 23/12/2009 at 18:25
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Well I've managed not to do that, ever, in any conditions. Seen loads of cars that have, in those same conditions. Perhaps they were going even faster!!
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The thing is that skidding happens suddenly and takes you unawares. You could drive for miles on slippery snow and then come to a bit with ice underneath and off you go!
One of my scariest situations in snow was driving along an A road at night when a blizzard had just begun. I was being followed by an artic. As the snow got thicker, I had to slow down as I could feel the car was losing grip, but the artic driver behind didn't realise this, since his heavier vehicle with hotter tyres was still gripping OK, so he proceeded to tailgate me closer and closer until I had to let him overtake.
Lorry drivers should know that cars will lose grip in snow as it settles earlier than heavy vehicles. I've been an HGV driver, so I know that.
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It should never take you 'unawares'. Looking at the conditions, the road surface, the temperature, the road direction and other hazards, should enable the driver to be at the right speed and in the right gear. Excessive steering inputs, braking and acceleration cause skids. Additionally, I know of few people who have ever sought any training after having passed their test. learning what causes the car to skid, and how to deal with it in the different configurations of drive available and on different surfaces takes away the fear of what happens in a skid. Allowing the car to move a little and learning how it's then affected by your inputs, rather than gripping tight, teaches tons about car control and boosts confidence no end. I'd suggest that most people with, say, 20 years driving experience actually have their first years experience 20 times over, rather than continual learning. They simply cement their own behaviour and mistakes and convince themselves they're good. Few other skills are so easily insulted yet people seek training for many other activities. Golf, for example? What's the difference between driving and golf or anything else that one may seek to improve??
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The thing is that skidding happens suddenly and takes you unawares.
Cars don't skid, drivers loose control.
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There's good reason to go very slow in snow.A fast driver in the snow will also cause snarl-ups when they inevitabley spin or slide into something. It's not safe to drive a 4x4 any faster than an ordinary car in slippery conditions because it can't stop any quicker.
I agree with both your points; I think though that the biggest bugbear of many drivers is the ones who go TOO slowly, ie crawling along at 10 mph as soon as the first snowflake falls. Causes a concertina effect, followed by impatient drivers overtaking where they shouldn't, result accident.
Many drivers fail to read the road ahead, and plan accordingly.
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Woodster , you could have summised I refer to a ' high ground clearance ' and nothing to do with the seat position ..
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I bet those stranded folk would have gladly swapped 2 mpg for getting where they wanted .. :-)
Yeah, but no-one cares about the BMW drivers...
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Yeah but no-one cares about the BMW drivers...
Terrible thing, envy.
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Terrible thing envy.
And the belittling of anyone else's choice as shown by recent threads, it's getting to be a bit nasty, pity.
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I am orf shopping this morning. The route or routes that I have to take have very steep hills and that means that in the Jimny (selectable 4 wheel drive) I will get there and more importantly I WILL get home. In the van or indeed in the Mitsi I may not. I have lived in Devon for 22 years and this year, for me at least 4x4 has been necessary as was last year when I didn't have it! and for 1 year previously and that is all.
I do agree that some folk have these things as a look at me statement and never venture on the grass verge let alone orf road, sad, but it's their money and who am I etc.
To all the regulars and the newbies too, have a pleasant CHRISTMAS break and stay safe and warm. Enjoy our Christian festival here in the UK, for that is what it is. Happy Christmas, not happy Holidays!
Very best regards to you all.................Martin.
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Motorprop - yeah, OK, hands up! I was bored.... Happy Christmas one and all
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Bah humbug, says it all really.
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PS
To the above, Woodster you were 100% correct.
It should never take you unawares
and yes cars do NOT skid, without provokation from the driver.
cheers
M
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Quote:..."It should never take you 'unawares'. Looking at the conditions, the road surface, the temperature, the road direction and other hazards, should enable the driver to be at the right speed and in the right gear""
In theory, but it can can't know exactly how slippery the road is. I light dusting of snow can be coverering other snow or ice. If you hit a patch of ice covered by a little snow, it's lethal.
If we're looking for a rule of thumb for whether to drive slowly in snow or ice, perhaps it should be that if you need to walk very slowly to avoid slipping over, then you need to drive very slowly to avoid skidding. Recently we've had freezing rain here, where it's virtually impossible to stand up and driving is hazardous even at walking pace.
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The driver of the "Barracuda" I passed coming home last night on a snow-covered road wasn't crowing. I'm assuming it was some sort of 4X4 - monstrous great thing in the inevitable black.
It had slithered sideways off a level road, and was flashing its hazard lights while vainly trying to get traction back onto the main carriageway. I just drove steadily past in my trusty old RWD Volvo, tyre grip doubtless aided by the half a ton of logs in the back.
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(((I just drove steadily past in my trusty old RWD Volvo, tyre grip doubtless aided by the half a ton of logs in the back.)))
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -> :-D
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Merry Christmas too, or should that be happy holidays as wished on the official formula 1 website ( cant have them offending there ever growing non christian fan base eh ? )
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>> >> Yeah but no-one cares about the BMW drivers... >> Terrible thing envy.
Yawn... No envy here. I owned a BMW for about 3 years, and a very nice one it was too. Trouble with BMW owners these days is that they are so insecure they cant take a bit of banter :)
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Do BMWs have heated fog light lenses? :-)
Edited by Old Navy on 24/12/2009 at 14:56
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Interesting thread this for me. As some of you may know I was given a 4x4 soft roader recently as a company car. Not my first 4x4. In the past I've had "proper" Land Rovers and a Granada 4x4 but it has been a good while since those. Without wishing to sound too pompous it so happens that I have a lot of experience in snow driving. Many years ago I made a few quid as a ski instructor for a couple of winters and since then have had to drive in winter conditions both in this country and abroad in the course of my work every year.
I've had over 40 cars in that time, some of which were 4WD, some RWD and some FWD. Having had the chance to try this latest one in the recent conditions I am reminded that there is no doubting the advantage of 4WD in getting traction from rest. FWD is also good for this but less capable in the worst of conditions. In my view though, the top heaviness of soft roaders is to their disadvantage. The basic handling advantage of a lower centre of gravity really shows up in extremis. I would even go so far as to say that if you can get traction off the line that my drive of preference in slippy conditions would actually be RWD. I find it much easier to correct when things get really out of shape.
In summary then, 4WD gets you going, FWD does too to a lesser extent but once underway it's more about the integrity of the chassis and its natural handling capabilities which makes the difference.
So no, I'm not crowing, all configurations have their pluses and minuses, ultimately its important to understand the basic dynamics of your chosen vehicle and to allow for its weaknesses and take advantage of its strengths. Bad weather just increases the need for some empathy with your car no matter what it is.
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A very balanced & interesting view HB. I would tend to echo many of those points - although I've not driven extensively in snowy conditions as some have.
Perhaps counter intuitively, although having had a soft-roader 4x4 & a more 'serious' 4x4, my best feeling of overall security & ability in snowy-icy conditions came when driving a FWD Audi A6 with CVT. When coupled with ESP, this really did put power down in the most delicate way when required. The heavy diesel engine hanging well over the front wheels, with power to them mediated by the CVT/ESP gave an almost magical ability in moving off on ice - even uphill.
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I've driven 4x4 vehicles for the past 16 years, larger vehicles in the earlier years and in the past 4 years Fiat Panda 4x4s.
When it comes to snow, slush and ice, a 4x4 system will get you moving from a standstill but for maintaining safe progress and control of the vehicle the type of tyre fitted is all-important.
My present Panda 4x4 has Continental Wintercontact 4x4 tyres which are proper Winter tyres and has been the safest, most controllable 4x4 I've ever owned in freezing conditions.
The tyres are also relatively narrow and the little car does have a low c. of g. Its relatively low weight also makes it easier to control if it starts to slide as it does not build up momentum so rapidly.
I would rather drive on snow in a FWD car with Winter tyres than a soft-roader with wide Summer tyres.
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Excellent points made in many posts (esp last 3) - but would I be wrong in suggesting that perhaps the greatest influence on making good progress in recent conditions in FWD, RWD or 4WD is whether the driver has plenty of experience in driving in these conditions?
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Yawn... No envy here. I owned a BMW for about 3 years and a very nice one it was too. Trouble with BMW owners these days is that they are so insecure they cant take a bit of banter :)
Yep! Correct! You'd be amazed at the carp I got from people who I thought were friends just because of my choice of car. It makes me a bit touchy when I think that people are being unfairly critical.
Clearly you were not doing that at all, and I got the wrong end of the stick. Sorry.
Just out of interest, what BM did you drive. I'm guessing at a 5 series. ;-)
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Just out of interest what BM did you drive. I'm guessing at a 5 series. ;-)
My days of BMW ownership was in the late 80s early 90s. An E30 323i was the car that introduced me to oversteer on wet roundabouts. That car really was a handfull in the wet, lethal by todays standards, but I learnt a lot from owning that car. A friend had a 520 which was great until the rings went and it emitted huge clouds of smoke in a James Bond stylee. Another friend had a E30 318, dreadfully underpowered and gutless.
Moved on to Audi 80s and A4s after that. Nowdays its Fords and Korean stuff as I prefer to spend my money elsewhere.
An E39 M5 is the only BMW I could be tempted to get today, the recent styling of BMWs just doesn't work (IMHO)
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>>Excellent points made in many posts (esp last 3) -
Agree with you there, Phil. Doctorchris's post is (for me) particularly interesting & helpful.
>>but would I be wrong in suggesting that perhaps the greatest influence on making good progress in recent conditions in FWD, RWD or 4WD is whether the driver has plenty of experience in driving in these conditions?
You might well be. We've got winter tyres on the Berlingo, and I find that it's great on the snow and ice. My wife, however, doesn't seem to find it quite so good. And I suspect that largely comes through lacking confidence because of a lack of experience.
Edited by tyro on 25/12/2009 at 12:23
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There can't be much worse than a Wife without experience, spose though that it could be fun learning 'em.
More Champers missus.......................Whack...................ouch...sorry
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As somebody who happily used FWD and RWD cars (the latter usually with a bag or two of sand in the boot) in snowy conditions in the Pennines for a number of years, I will happily support the view that a 4x4 is not 'necessary', and the contrast between drivers who know what they are doing, and those who don't, is staggering.
However, other things being equal, there is a definite edge. Assuming a level of competence, you know you won't be the first to get stuck; and I have benefitted this week from being able to drive around obstructions and use empty, hilly, snow covered minor roads to avoid total gridlock.
I personally wouldn't buy a full size, thirsty 4x4 for this purpose - but I am very pleased with my 'do everything' soft roader. Despite being a much-mocked category of car, it has proven to be a fantastic compromise of space, comfort, economy, and towing capability, the extra grip (quite possibily assisted by M&S tyres) in recent conditions being a very useful bonus.
Often the best compromise is the best solution - that there are faster, bigger, more economical, more comfortable, and better off road vehicles bothers me not at all.
Edited by Manatee on 25/12/2009 at 14:09
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Blimey! What a good post. Lots of good points, but especially in the last paragraph, which could be used in reply to anyone who has every come to this forum asking for advice on what car to get:
"Often the best compromise is the best solution"
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