|
It's worth reminding you (as in RJP's post further up this thread) to look at the Review section of this site if you're thinking of buying a C-Max. HJ is very specific as to which models ands build dates to avoid.
RJP and others - good luck and do let us know how you get on. Legal advice is available from our resident expert if you need it: just post on the Legal section.
|
|
None of us have yet had any reasonable offer from Ford or from our dealers. The owner of my local dealer advertises his business with the line "Buy with confidence from a family business dedicated to looking after your needs". He and his staff have refused even to acknowledge the last two letters I have written to him.
I hope the Ford managers and dealers that refuse to touch these cars with a barge-pole, the online buyers that put them through auctions and all those in the know that tell owners to pass them on quickly before they break down realise that ultimately it's people like Derby72's daughter that get left in the lurch.
LucyBC is already in touch with us and being very helpful. Several of us are determined, either individually or collectively to establish clearly and publicly, in a court of law setting a legal precedent, that this car and transmission - and the remanufactured replacement transmissions that Ford is still offering - are not of satisfactory quality.
Anyone reading this thread will see we have spent eight months trying to get a sensible and reasonable solution. Derby72's daughter deserves a more urgent response. My message to Ford is - don't wait for us to come to you through the courts. Do the decent thing now!
|
|
Hi all, I have just sent of a reply to the threatened legal action against my protest. I will keep you updated. Could maybe be good if this matter was brought into open court. There is an article highlighting the problems of Andrew regarding this gearbox in the latest edition of Auto Express issue 1130 page 39. Also the secretive actions of manufacturers on page 34. I will be writing to them of my experiences.
|
|
There is a firm called MCT REMAN who handle repairs to ECUs and other such electrical "Boxes". They could be worth a call.
|
|
Just had feedback from MCT REMAN. Unfortunately they can't help with this transmission.
|
|
Please see my earlier post.
I am pleased to report that in my case my own local main dealer Haynes of Maidstone have acted to preserve their own first class local reputation.
They have offered £4k part exchange for the vehicle (it's sc*** value is probably about £200 at best) against a new car. We have chosen a new Automatic Fusion which is on special offer (yes we know it's being discontinued) at circa £2500 below list price so we are very satisfied with the agreement at the end of the day.
Haynes also said that they would have honoured my demand that they repair the car but couldn't get any replacement transmission so it was just not possible. However if they had repaired it they would have insisted that I make a contribution to the cost in respect of wear and tear which wouldn't have been unreasonable.
Never did get a reply from Andy Barratt .
|
|
What a sorry saga,to all those people with these problems with a auto gearbox from Ford.What would the reaction have been if this happens in the states or does it?The last auto box i drove before the Honda Jazz a VW Jetta lasted twelve years.Ford should do the decent thing and replace these auto boxes without charge.Unless they have lost interest in customer care be carefull Ford, people will vote with their pockett and move on.
|
|
|
|
In May 2005 I purchased a 2004 Ford Focus C-Max 1.6TDCI CFT23auto transmission from Ford Direct through my local dealer Peoples. It had 14,000mls on the clock. I expected its service history to be up to Ford’s requirements. I had it serviced, maintained and repaired by them to what I expected to be to Fords specifications’ and requirements.
To severely cut a long my long story short. In mid February of this year I experienced several unexplainable losses of power. In late February the car suffered severe loss off power on the M8, the speed dropping suddenly from 70 to 50mph. No warning lights came on. I got the car home a distance of a few miles. The next morning it started and run perfectly. However I took it to the dealer explained the problem and left it for them to run a diagnostic check on the car. No fault showed up. A few days later it stalled coming out of a junction, automatics should not stall. I eventually had to push the car to the roadside. I called my daughter who came along and confirmed that there was a serious problem. I called the AA. Due to the time it was going to take them to come I was told to get a taxi home and they would pick me up on their way. About 2 hrs later I was picked up and back to the car. It started and run perfectly. The AA man followed me home and agreed with me that no fault was apparent.
I called the dealer next morning, explained what had happened and was asked to take it down to them if possible; they are only about 3 miles away. On the way there I experienced drive faults. On a manual gearbox I would have diagnosed a slipping clutch. At this point the warning lights for engine management and transmission came on. I got it to the dealer and the workshop foreman took it for a very short test drive and agreed that there seemed to be a fault, only the engine management light was on by now. I left the car. I received a call three days later to inform me that there was a fault with the gearbox and that I would need a new one.
I was astounded. I had never had a problem with an automatic box in all my 30 years of owning them, most of them doing in excess of 100,00mls and 2 of them in excess of 150,000mls.
This box had only done 49,000mls. I went down to the dealer where it was confirmed that diagnostics had come up with a faulty gearbox code and that they could not repair it nor could the specialist gearbox repairer (Mackie Automatic Transmissions of Glasgow) which the dealer used on occasion.
The new gearbox would cost between £4,000 and £5,000 and that they were on back order with no date given when it would be available. They suggested that I try and source one on the internet.
I spent hours over 2 weeks trawling the internet searching for one to no avail. I phoned Mackie’s myself only to be informed that they already had one in but could not repair it due to Ford not allowing parts to be made available to specialist repairers so it would be pointless to take mine. On a visit to the dealer the salesman who sold me the car told me to go to the Engine Shed in Glasgow (a sc*** yard) and offered me £800 pounds in part exchange. From being offered £4,800 part exchange in January from another manufacturer to sc*** in 2 months!! The dealer phoned Ford CRC to ask about financial assistance. The reply was that no financial assistance would be forthcoming due to the age of the vehicle despite its comparatively low mileage.
I felt I had no option but to give the go ahead and order a reconditioned gearbox. While waiting for it to be delivered I managed to find time to further research this gearbox as I had only previously looking for a second hand one. I discovered that I was far from alone in this matter. Owners had been having problems since December 2009. On the honestjohn website and c-max owners site I discovered that there were big problems with this box. At my behest a director of the dealer contacted me by phone and said he would intercede with Ford on my behalf with Andy Barrat. This was followed up by a letter from him confirming that Ford would not be forthcoming with any financial assistance.
I the second half of March the dealer phoned to say that the gearbox had been delivered and that it should be fitted in 2 or 3 days. It did in fact take 2 weeks. They suggested that I should take it back after around 1,000miles for a check over. I was not happy with the operation of the gearbox and when I took it back I gave them a list of what I considered to be faulty operation. They said they could find no fault and a technician suggested that I might drive it a little more aggressively.
During the time since I have been in contact with trading standards who suggested claiming the cost from the dealer giving the reason that the gearbox was unfit for purpose. This was rejected. My local trading standards have contacted the Essex trading standards twice and been rejected twice.
I have written to Andy Barrat at Ford Brentwood twice. I have had no reply from this man. I have had 2 phone calls followed by 2 letters rejecting any claim for financial assistance from 2 different persons at CRC Coventry for various reasons, some of which I consider to be ludicrous.
I became so incensed at Fords reprehensible cover up and denial that this gearbox was faulty that I decided to hold a peaceful protest outside the dealer against Ford. I was told I was a “selfish sad old git” and told to “sling yer hook”. They called the police who told me I was within my rights as long as I did not create a disturbance. On the 4 th day I received a letter from the dealer and one from their London solicitors informing me that legal action would be taken against me unless I stopped immediately. I have written back clarifying the message on my placard which had been incorrectly reported by the dealer to their solicitors. I await their reply but intend to continue with this protest.
There are serious questions which Ford need to address and come clean on. Hundreds of thousands of pounds if not more were invested in R&D on this gearbox, hailing it the latest in technology.
It was not improved or upgraded but replaced with a totally different gearbox of supposed superior technology. What confidence can be put in that product given the abject failure of the CFT23?
Why was it removed from the spec of this car after a very short time and a comparative low numbers produced?
What is the maximum input torque capability of this gearbox?
What is the maximum output torque capability of the 1.6l Durotorq 110PS engine?
How many reached the apparent breakdown mileage of between 37,000 miles and 49,000miles within the three year warranty period and were repaired?
Why are parts not allowed to be supplied to highly professional gearbox repairers? Does Ford think that only they have the technicians to repair or find what goes wrong with it? Even dealers are not allowed to touch it.
From the e-mails I have received I believe that this gearbox is of poor design, poor manufacture, poor assembly, poor servicing regime or as has been suggested mismatched to the engine.
I believe that Fords tactic is to deny, deny, deny until this specification is off the market and to set a price that in most cases make it uneconomically viable. Some owners have been quoted £5,500 to replace it.
These cars are now going through auctions and garage forecourts to unsuspecting buyers thinking they are getting a comparatively low mileage car but are in fact buying what one owner described as a “timebomb” and not economically repairable. Owners of what is basically a family car, doing average mileage, are finding that it is out of warranty at a comparative low mileage.
Where do owners go to get compensation and justice against the financial power of Ford?
|
|
|
|
In May 2005 I purchased a 2004 Ford Focus C-Max 1.6TDCI CFT23auto transmission from Ford Direct through my local dealer Peoples. It had 14,000mls on the clock. I expected its service history to be up to Ford’s requirements. I had it serviced, maintained and repaired by them to what I expected to be to Fords specifications’ and requirements.
In late Feb of this year I experienced transmission and loss of power problems and took the car to the ford dealer.
I left the car. I received a call three days later to inform me that there was a fault with the gearbox and that I would need a new one.
I was astounded. I had never had a problem with an automatic box in all my 30 years of owning them, most of them doing in excess of 100,00mls and 2 of them in excess of 150,000mls.
There are serious questions which Ford need to address and come clean on. Hundreds of thousands of pounds if not more were invested in R&D on this gearbox, hailing it the latest in technology.
It was not improved or upgraded but replaced with a totally different gearbox of supposed superior technology. What confidence can be put in that product given the abject failure of the CFT23?
Why was it removed from the spec of this car after a very short time and a comparative low numbers produced?
What is the maximum input torque capability of this gearbox?
What is the maximum output torque capability of the 1.6l Durotorq 110PS engine?
How many reached the apparent breakdown mileage of between 37,000 miles and 49,000miles within the three year warranty period and were repaired?
Why are parts not allowed to be supplied to highly professional gearbox repairers? Does Ford think that only they have the technicians to repair or find what goes wrong with it? Even dealers are not allowed to touch it.
From the e-mails I have received I believe that this gearbox is of poor design, poor manufacture, poor assembly, poor servicing regime or as has been suggested mismatched to the engine.
I believe that Fords tactic is to deny, deny, deny until this specification is off the market and to set a price that in most cases make it uneconomically viable. Some owners have been quoted £5,500 to replace it.
These cars are now going through auctions and garage forecourts to unsuspecting buyers thinking they are getting a comparatively low mileage car but are in fact buying what one owner described as a “timebomb” and not economically repairable. Owners of what is basically a family car, doing average mileage, are finding that it is out of warranty at a comparative low mileage.
Where do owners go to get compensation and justice against the financial power of Ford?
|
|
I think the reason that Ford won't supply parts or let a Automatic Gearbox specialist work on the box is that they might find out what the real problem is.In situations like this a lot of Managers have sloping shoulders and don't want to rock the boat.A auto gearbox should last at least 100000 miles if maintained in my opinion.You was brave to do what you did maybe if more people with the same problems as your car did the same, things might happen.I am not a laywer but in these situations it looks to me like fraud.With other words they are selling something which is not fit for the purpose it was designed for.Maybe the future will be car layers who can help people with these problems it looks to me they are needed.!
|
|
A brief update.
Tomcox, after another demonstration outside his dealer, received a sympathetic hearing from his dealer's head office senior management, who then also arranged a settlement with Ford.
So at least two dealers have already had the common sense and decency to recognise that these cars should not be failing as they are. If we look harder, and/or if this goes to court, I suspect we'll find more.
My dealer still refuses even to acknowledge my emails and letters. Ford has acknowledged but not replied to a letter from Lucy BC. So it's time to bring this to a head.
According to DVLA, the number of these cars licensed as at 22 August 2010 is 243 plus 6 with SORN in force.
If anyone reading this posting knows anyone who may have owned one of these cars and has had any case of transmission failure (whether or not it has been fixed under warranty) or who has already had to write off a C-Max TDCI CVT because of transmission failure, please ask them to contact me at reg.pritchard@toplinesystems.co.uk .
|
|
Since LucyBC and AutoLaw got involved a few weeks ago we’ve seen quite a few developments.
Letters to Ford’s Director of Communications and Public Affairs have emphasised that we want a sensible and fair settlement of the problems with this car, rather than legal action. Ford’s Director of Customer Services has also become personally involved.
Replies from Ford promised first an enquiry by an investigative technician and then an investigation by the Director of Customer Services.
Pavillion and I heard from our Ford dealers two weeks ago that the price for remanufactured transmissions was being slashed from over £4k to £1.6k. Pavillion was told that Ford will now also begin to make sub-components available. However, neither of these dealers was prepared to fit the remanufactured transmissions themselves or to take responsibility for them being of satisfactory quality.
A Ford lawyer subsequently sent me an email stating that Ford had “sourced” this dramatic price reduction. Given the control that Ford has over its supply chain for these units, the reduction raises massive questions for anyone that has already spent over £4k on a remanufactured replacement unit or has been forced to scrap a C-Max because of the repair price quoted by Ford. If anyone’s in this situation, please get in touch with us via this thread.
My own dealer and Ford’s lawyer have made clear I will be given a further discount if I agree to have a remanufactured transmission fitted by (some other, unspecified) Ford dealer. Neither Ford nor my dealer seems prepared to take responsibility for the car and any replacement transmission being of satisfactory quality. My dealer has so far ignored multiple requests to state whether he is prepared to buy back the car from me at any price, before or after the repair that Ford is prepared to discount. In the meantime, as Ford and my dealer know very well, my car has been off the road at Derek King’s workshop for over a year.
AutoLaw has instructions to start legal proceedings next week in my case if we do not receive a satisfactory response from my dealer to AutoLaw's "Letter before Action".
Derby72, AndyMac5182 and I have been directly in touch with Ford’s Customer Services Director about their cases and he has promised to investigate. The investigation has resulted in calls to Andy and me from someone who only later identified herself (to me, not to Andy) via email as a Ford lawyer. Apparently Andy was told he had no case against Ford because he bought his car privately and Ford is not directly involved.
We’re hoping some wiser counsel will prevail as and when issues of fitness for purpose, restraint of trade, predatory pricing and/or profiteering from the sale of remanufactured transmissions are considered and when someone at Ford realises that setting unidentified lawyers against vulnerable consumers is not good business.
In a nutshell, LucyBC and AutoLaw are being incredibly helpful. Together, we seem finally to be getting through to Ford, if not to my dealer. My claim is apparently strong and straightforward. If the small claims court decides in my favour it will not be a binding precedent but should help other claims. Ford is at least now looking into what it can do for other victims. We remain concerned Ford will resort to shovelling out cut-price unsatisfactory fixes for an unsatisfactory car to the independent trade. We hope to make more progress over the next few weeks.
|
|
AutoLaw spoke yesterday to Ford Customer Service's in-house lawyer and to my local dealer. It looks as if Ford Customer Services will be leaving the dealer to take the heat rather than face up to the problems with this model. What this means for the Customer Services Director's investigation of Derby72 and AndyMac's cases is anyone's guess.
In Ford of Great Britain's Centenary Year, 100 years after the Ford Model T reached the top of Ben Nevis, Ford Customer Services seems to want to wash its hands of a cock-up involving a very small number of cars that should never have been put on sale.
AutoLaw will be filing on my behalf this afternoon.
As regards Ford GB's reputation in its centenary year, think of a broken down C-Max TDCI CVT on the top of Ben Nevis.
|
With the passage of time the story of the CFT23 is becoming clearer, and whilst I have written a longer article elsewhere about the gearbox, perhaps this is a good time and place for a summary.
1) The ZF design of the gearbox is essentially sound, we know this because some examples have achieved high mileages without problem. Unfortunately it would appear that Ford was not very good at making the gearbox when it took over from ZF. Ford had significant production problems at Batavia, with some parts and assembled transmissions being virtually hand made, this lead to slow and unreliable production, and a lottery in terms of the customer getting a good gearbox.
2) The CFT23 was wrong gearbox for the 1.6 diesel engine as it is now widely know that the torque handling of the gearbox was less than the engine can develop. Ford should have used the CFT30 in the C-Max which would have been a better match.
3) The service interval at 75,000 miles is wildly optimistic. I and another person have both changed the fluid (at 23,000 and 62,000 miles) and found the fluid to be expired. The specified service by Ford is a fluid only change; without a new filter this is plain wrong.
What should you do?
a) If you’re thinking of buying a C-Max 1.6 diesel automatic, don’t.
b) If you’ve got one and it is still working and you want to keep it, change the transmission fluid and filter as soon as possible. It is a DIY job, but a professional flush might be better.
c) If you’ve got one and don’t want to pay the cost of a fluid and filter change, sell it.
If you fall in to the “b” group above, it may still be that as a result of the service that you are advised or come to the opinion that the gearbox is likely to fail and should sell it, but at least you will be armed with some knowledge and a service of a few hundred pounds is still cheaper than a new gearbox. These are my personal opinions, but I’m confident that those who’ve been unlucky would agree.
Good luck,
Pavillion.
|
|
Derby72 has just passed me a letter from Ford Customer Services I find hard to believe. It seems her daughter’s Ford dealer had charged her £45 to tell her she would need a replacement gearbox for about £5k, then threatened to charge her storage charges while she took up the case with Ford. Her daughter removed the car and has not paid the bill. The dealer now claims the car was removed - to quote Ford Customer Services “without informing the Dealership, gaining permission to access the Dealership, or paying for the services provided by the Dealership”.
“In light of the above”, according to the Ford Customer Services executive assigned to investigate this case,
“we are unable to assist any further”.
Never mind that the car’s transmission failed at 47,000 miles, 28,000 miles before the first service interval specified by Ford. Never mind all the other failures Ford knows all about.
Some dealer. Some Customer Service.
Ford of Britain chairman, Joe Greenwell, recently said:
"Ford of Britain has been in the fabric of the nation for over a hundred years and no motor company has touched more lives in Britain.
Joe, is this what you mean by touching a life in Britain? In Ford UK’s centenary year, can’t you do better than this?
|
|
I have just set up a Facebook page under the catchy title "Ford Focus C-max 1.6 TDCI CVT premature gearbox failure". Can everyone visit and support it. You can post pictures of your C-max and make comments (keep them polite please!) or tell you C-max story.
|
|
We have a CMAX 1.6 TDCi CVT Auto, which we bought in 2004. It was bought new from a main dealer here in France and has been serviced and repaired there. It has been no end of trouble and we have had a series of expensive repairs. We have had the engine hesitation at 1500 and 2000 rpm and black smoke problem, which has always been there to some extent and has just got progressively worse. They have had umpteen attempts to cure it but it always come back. The EGR valve had to be replaced. The central locking is temperamental - the boot opened itself periodically. The lever won't release from the Park position in the usual way and we have to manually release it with the aid of a screwdriver - I suspect this is the expensive solenoid problem, but we can't afford to have it fixed. The engine hesitation has now become really bad and when the engine has to 'work' past 2000rpm we often get a wild sudden increase in revs and the transmission malfunction warning. We have to stop the car and turn it off and on again. This happens frequently. The car has done around 120,000kms and has always been main dealer serviced.
We're taking it to the dealer next week as we can no longer afford to keep repairing it. We're looking for a part exchange to get anything back for it. I suspect however they will not offer us very much.
Obviously reading the other stories on Honest John this car just wasn't designed properly. We'll see what Ford have to say but they haven't been very sympathetic in the past. They told us once that it was an old car now (It's six years old!) and so the problems weren't unexpected. It is difficult for us to deal with the situation as although our French is reasonable we cannot understand all the technical language. Furthermore we no understanding of French consumer law and what processes might be available to us. So I doubt we'll get anywhere.
This car has been an unfortunate and hugely expensive mistake for us. Good luck in your battle, Ford really should admit their error with this model and compensate owners.
|
|
I also have a trans mission failure at 43,000 miles. The car was first registered in December 2005 and purchased from Perrys in Aylesbury. They have quoted £2701.00 for the repair and are not prepared to offer any assistance.
I am a pensioner and this has left me in a very difficult position
|
I also have a trans mission failure at 43,000 miles. The car was first registered in December 2005 and purchased from Perrys in Aylesbury. They have quoted £2701.00 for the repair and are not prepared to offer any assistance.
I am a pensioner and this has left me in a very difficult position
My son pays £20+ per month for mechanical warranty on his Lexus - I take the risk - you pays your money or takes your chance!
My 12 yr old Mazda has cost £730 in repairs in 11 years (excludes consumables, tyres, exhaust, brake pads etc)
|
|
The key difference with these C-Max CVTs is that the transmission was not designed to cope with the output of the engine, Ford specified a 75,000 mile first service interval and provided no remedy other than replacement with a remanufactured transmission as and when the cars failed before reaching the first service interval. Until recently these remanufactured replacement units were priced so high as to make the car not worth repairing - effectively forcing the problem off the road.
Less than 250 few of these cars remain registered as on the road in the UK. Most dealers will not touch them except at deeply discounted prices. Ford's Customer Service Director agreed last January to investigate. He has not replied to multiple requests to let us know the outcome of his investigation.
All that most of us have seen since then has been attempts by a Ford lawyer to avoid responsibility by hiding behind demands for service history details etc. These cars have been failing at such low mileages that even with regular annual services the transmission would not have been inspected or serviced at any stage during the warranty period.
As far as we know settlements offered so far have been restricted to those that bought from a Ford dealer. These involve either involve trade-in for another Ford or leaving the owner with a fundamentally unreliable combination of engine and transmission and a potentially unsaleable vehicle.
Where the cars have been bought from a dealer we have a straightforward claim under the Sale of Goods Act. In my case, with the help of Lucy BC and AutoLaw, we have filed a claim and are awaiting court proceedings. Those that bought privately have so far been left in the lurch.
A group of us will be writing in the near future to the CEO and Chairman of Ford GB formally to request that in this centenary year Ford provides a better solution for the owners.
If any other C-Max CVT owners past or present wish to join us in this letter, please contact me at reg.pritchard@toplinesystems.co.uk.
|
Encourage everyone to join group letter as individual complaints seem to have no interest to Ford.
I have written to Customer Services for nearly a year now and they still want full service history although the first one for the gearbox is 75000 miles, so any others are irrelevant."to establish the vehicle has been serviced in line with our recommendations, using genuine Ford or approved parts, because we look at maintenance & loyalty when considering goodwill"
My daughter only had the car a few months before it died so never had any work done on it - how could she prove her loyalty??
Has everyone contacted VOSA?
|
|
My father in law and I own a Focus C-MAX 1.6 TDCI (56 reg) whose CVT failed at 45,000 miles in November last year. After the inevitable shock and disbelief, we decided to replace the transmission in the end at a cost of £2500 by Ford. However Ford were unforthcoming with paying for it despite the part clearly failing before its recommended service interval.
Our story was the 'Transmission Malfunction' light appeared last May, and then 0 revs. AA recovered us to Ford dealership in Swansea. Ford inspected for £75, said they just had to reset the computer, and sent us on our way. Later in the year it happened again, and this time the car was undriveable. Car was recovered by AA to Ford again, who informed us that the transmission had failed and would need to be completely replaced. Though they sympathised with our case, they said there was nothing that could be done. It has been regularly serviced, though not always by Ford.
We regret not pushing this more at the time, but it was such a shock that in the end we just went for it as we'd only bought the car 2nd hand a year and a half before (out of warranty of course).
It seems to me that if a part fails as early as this, and they are not one-offs, it is not fit for purpose, and as such Ford should reimburse owners for the extreme expenses incurred. Goodwill counts for nothing if it's not followed through with action.
|
|
I've had no problems with my CVT, but in my case the hesitation at 1800 rpm (and smoke) was cured by disconnecting the MAF sensor (between the air filter and the turbo - just disconnect the elctrical plug). Ideally, replace the MAF sensor with a new one, but I suspect that too will get contaminated with oil fron the breather pipe.
The engine mgt light will prob come on, but the car will drive OK.
|
|
Ford's comment to Derby72 about the need
"to establish the vehicle has been serviced in line with our recommendations, using genuine Ford or approved parts, because we look at maintenance & loyalty when considering goodwill"
is a complete red herring.
Ford specified (not just recommended) a 75,000 mile first service interval for this transmission and has continued to do so for years after the car was withdrawn from production, broken-down C-Max CVTs were turning up all around Europe and dealers in this country were refusing to buy them in at any price.
Ford's own failure to acknowledge and deal with this problem is directly responsible for owners being stuck with a low-mileage, second-hand, out of warranty C-Max with a broken down transmission. Where is Ford's loyalty to these owners?
|
|
See www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/ford/c-max-2003/?sec...s for the latest case of catastrophic transmission failure of a car bought from new from a Ford dealer. Is Ford going to wait until someone gets hurt before these unreliable vehicles are taken off our roads?
|
|
" My wife and children could have been killed" is a phrase oft uttered in relation to any catastrophic failure. It's sentimental nonsense that has no bearing on the merits of the case.
Ford appear to have behaved very poorly over the cVT affair but over-egging the pudding does not add credibility to the case.
|
|
I gather that the circumstances in which you experienced your gearbox fault probably differed from mine ... Almost exactly one hour earlier that day we were 'all' traveling in our car on a main road, at speed. From now on I will save my energies to focus on the following: (information that another C-Max owners has recently shared:
a) In the circumstances, it is Ford's direct responsibility to C-Max owners to ensure the vehicles they sell, and service are safe.
b) Ford has known about the weakness and failure of this transmission for many years and done nothing the prevent them.
c) Ford has set a first service level for this transmission which means most owners will not even have their transmissions inspected during the period of the manufacturer's warranty.
|
|
Hello all, I currently have a ford focus c-max 1.6 TDCI CVT auto on a 54 plate. I bought the car 2 years ago from an independent dealer for my wife. Within the last 2 years there is a humming noise that has got worse and worse while driving. More recently we have been getting the Transmission Failure message from time to time. When this message comes on the revs seem to climb up and the only way to get rid of the message is to switch off the car and on again. I have been trawling this forum for some time now and it seems as if Ford are going to do absolutely nothing to help its customers, so it is down to us to sort it out ourselves. I have read that one suggestion is a transmission fluid flush and filter change. Has anybody else tried this and had any sort of success in terms of reducing the humming noise that seems to be coming out of the gearbox ... in fact ... does anyone else seem to be sufferiing from this humming noise or is it just complete gearbox failures? Any help and advice much appreciated.
|
|
Hi.
All I had the transmission failure message and the revs climbing slightly, but the service manager at my local Ford dealer told me the car was unsafe to drive, so please beware.
Don't give up hope on Ford. With the help and support of Lucy BC's firm AutoLaw we seem finally to be getting the attention of Ford's management. I should know more in a week or so's time, but if they don't do something soon my case and perhaps a number of others wll be going to court. We're also in touch with Watchdog and VOSA. If you wish to contact me on reg.pritchard@gmail.com with an email address I can give further details.
As regards diy solutions, the advice I had from Simon King, who is a trade specialist on automatic transmissions, was not to try them. A change of fluid and filter will not help if the transmission is structurally unsound. There's also the risk that if you try something yourself and the transmission fails catastrophically you may have less of a claim on the dealer that sold you the car and/or Ford.
Having said that, see the postings from Pavillion above. He knows enough to be able to change the transmission fluid and filter; he did it to his C-Max before any outward indication of failure. As far as I know his car hasn't yet failed, but unless you are in the trade I would strongly recommend you don't try to fix this yourself..
|
|
VOSA is now in contact with Ford about the problems with the C-Max CVT. Anyone who has had a transmission breakdown on the road without prior warning please contact us through this forum.
There's a separate issue regarding cars that have been showing the "transmission malfunction" warning with no other obvious change to how the vehicle is running. Ford guidance states that if this warning light appears, owners should contact their Ford dealer. Please let us know if this has happened to you and, if so, what the dealer said.
|
|
This happened to us. We live in France. Our CMAX CVT was main dealer purchased in late 2004 and has been main dealer serviced. We experienced the engine hesitation problems and black smoke problems for years with many unsuccessful and expensive attempts to fix it. We also experienced other common faults associated with this model. In late 2010 following a service the hesitations became (even) worse - and they were always pretty bad - and would be followed by a massive increase in revs and high whining engine notes. The revs would suddenly jump from around 1800 to 3500 and any slight adjustment to the throttle either way would be accompanied by a wild swing in revs. Stopping the car and turning off and on again would return the car back to normal, but the transmission malfunction would recur five minutes further down the road. The car felt very fragile and I considered it dangerous to drive. We couldn't sell the car and the main dealer agreed to take it back only if we part exchanged it for a new vehicle. They said the car needed a new gearbox and reduced the trade in value accordingly. We did the trade-in for an unsuitable vehicle that we didn't want but the only one on their books that we could afford. It was the only way of salvaging any value from the car. We didn't have much choice but to accept this as we don't have the money to consider legal action and we don't understand the French legal process anyway. I have the paperwork with the car's history and all the repair bills. I cannot really deal with the issue in French but I will compile a dossier and send it to Ford Europe, although I don't expect to get anywhere with it.
Our only satisfaction is that knowing that we or our children will never buy another Ford. Plus a few friends have said that in sympathy they will never consider one either. I have just bought a 1991 Toyota Corolla automatic to replace the Cmax. Life of a Toyota 20 years so far, Ford died after 6 years. I've learnt my lesson.
Edited by apmills on 12/06/2011 at 12:31
|
|
Did the stupid thing bought a ford c max 1.6 diesel with CVT bot only had the car 2 months dash came up with a transmission malfunction. Took to my local garage they put it on the test rig and told me the output speed sensor was faulty paid them £250 to repair went to collect car & dash warning came on Transmission malfunction They told me they needed wireing diagram to rectify. Decided to take to Essex ford Southend. Booked the car in they told me would cost £80 for check they called back next day said needed more time cost another £80+ said ok but also said looked into this problem & was told ford would just quote new box. Receptionist did not think that would happen. Low and behold the next day get a call from garage Mr Woodhouse you need a new box! There was a wiring fault in the sealed unit & to expensive to repair.I told them I had made enquirers and that this outcome was what would happen. The service manager said all he could do was get in touch with ford technical department and get back to me. Oh OH what do I do now can't afford the £3200+ repair (car only cost £4000) is my car now scrap!!! Buy the way the car drives OK no probs just the dam Waring on the dash wish I could turn it off!!!
|
|
Ask your Ford dealer to get in touch with the Ford Customer Services contact dealing with C-Max CVT failures. They should be able to set wheels in motion for a better offer. If they don't, contact me on reg.pritchard@gmail.com and I can suggest some other contacts.
By the way in my case AutoLaw appears to be making some progress with Ford's legal department, but if they don't settle as we've proposed I've made clear I prefer to go to court. I've instructed AutoLaw today to commission a technical report from a qualified IAEA assessor into the premature failures of C-MAX CVT transmissions. In the meantime the more new cases we know about, the more likely that Ford will agree to make fair settlements to the small band of us affected by this, so we can get on with our lives and Ford GB can get on with celebrating its centenary of service to the public.
|
I have been asked by rjp to post my c-max story as more evidence/support to this matter.
Ford C- Max TDCi automatic on 2004 plate purchased from private dealer, September 2010, mileage 24,731. Test drove a 2008 model and loved the driving position, perfect for my back problems and did not think twice when I found a slightly older one for half the price!
May 2011 stalled at traffic lights. restarted. put into D stalled. over and over again until battery flat. AA rescued. - 7 fault codes inc. transmission. Local Ford garage repaired MAF sensor. Mileage 30,303
June 2011 stalled in school car park. Put into D stalled, over and over again. AA towed back to Ford garage and spoke to them describing symptoms and wrote gearbox on his report.. Car returned 2 days later said nothing wrong could be found. Mileage 30,704
6 Jan 2012 Car started on a return journey put into R stalled. Every gear tried but stalled everytime. Back to Ford Garage. This time needs the transmission replaced cost £2800. Mileage 36,604.
Legal advice taken. Complaint sent to Garage under Sale of Goods and Services Act 1982 in that they had failed to diagnose the correct problem(s) and allowed me to carry on driving causing the complete failure of the gearbox.
My case and lack of car is still ongoing but after receiving a call from the complaints manager at the garage who amongst other things said he had been in contact with "FORD" who had advised him that they could not help as 1. No known problems with the transmission on this car. and 2. I was not the original owner and therefore not their customer, which was fair comment.........until I googled transmission repairs for my car and the top answer was this forum on the honestjohn website!
I am now part of this mess and wish I could think of a way of tracing all the affected C -MAX owners driving around in thier "grenades with the pin out" or completely out of pocket in the past.
Well done Reg for sticking to your principles on this matter, I will keep in touch with my own saga.
|
I have been asked by rjp to post my c-max story as more evidence/support to this matter. Ford C- Max TDCi automatic on 2004 plate purchased from private dealer, September 2010, mileage 24,731. Test drove a 2008 model and loved the driving position, perfect for my back problems and did not think twice when I found a slightly older one for half the price! May 2011 stalled at traffic lights. restarted. put into D stalled. over and over again until battery flat. AA rescued. - 7 fault codes inc. transmission. Local Ford garage repaired MAF sensor. Mileage 30,303 June 2011 stalled in school car park. Put into D stalled, over and over again. AA towed back to Ford garage and spoke to them describing symptoms and wrote gearbox on his report.. Car returned 2 days later said nothing wrong could be found. Mileage 30,704 6 Jan 2012 Car started on a return journey put into R stalled. Every gear tried but stalled everytime. Back to Ford Garage. This time needs the transmission replaced cost £2800. Mileage 36,604. Legal advice taken. Complaint sent to Garage under Sale of Goods and Services Act 1982 in that they had failed to diagnose the correct problem(s) and allowed me to carry on driving causing the complete failure of the gearbox. My case and lack of car is still ongoing but after receiving a call from the complaints manager at the garage who amongst other things said he had been in contact with "FORD" who had advised him that they could not help as 1. No known problems with the transmission on this car. and 2. I was not the original owner and therefore not their customer, which was fair comment.........until I googled transmission repairs for my car and the top answer was this forum on the honestjohn website! I am now part of this mess and wish I could think of a way of tracing all the affected C -MAX owners driving around in thier "grenades with the pin out" or completely out of pocket in the past. Well done Reg for sticking to your principles on this matter, I will keep in touch with my own saga.
Sorry I meant to ask if any other owners past/present have any updates on their own C-MAX CVT problems especially contact with FORD. Thanks. K.
|
|
This happened to us on 28th July (2011) - approx 15 miles from home on a rare trip out. Hubby aged 83 was the passenger & recently has had 2 heart attacks so not in good health. Goes without saying that this hasn't helped! Car has done approx 45,500 miles. The transmission malfunction light/message came up without warning (i.e. no indications of any problems prior to this). Car registered 12/1/2006 & we bought it 2nd hand Jan 2009 from main dealer as an ex Motability car.
It's with Ford dealer who diagnosed the fault and it needs new gearbox/transmission. Ford Protect have authorised the repair. I'm very worried - I rang the dealer midday today for progress report - no part yet and couldn't answer when I asked when it's likely to be received..... just said they would check tomorrow.
|
|
Another one. I am based in Ireland. No transmission malfunction light or codes, just a loud rattling noise coming from engine bay. This Car registered on 02/2007 and I bought in July 2009. Car has done 34,000 miles, its just ridiculous. Local Ford Dealer has quoted €4,000 euros to replace CVT gearbox and torque converter as well (no parts in stock of course and not known when will be available). This is for reconditioned gearbox. Ford Ireland customer service don't want to know, car is out of warranty....tough luck!!!.
|
|
Hi all,
I guess we are one more Ford victim. 8 months ago we bought an 1.6 tdci auto ford focus 2006 (NOT C-MAX however). Since then we are geting "transmission malfunction" indication whenever we slow down abruptly, for example at a section or when parking, the common yellow light for engine check switches on, the gear becomes stiff and the car does not roll normally. You have to switch it off in order to get fixed. We have the valvoline changed - it was all clear - the computer errors have to do with oil pressure, however a gear expert said it has nothing to do with the gear box itself and even if we change it we might still get the malfunction.
1) Does anyone know if the ford focus and the c-max have the same gearbox - i know its a ZF CVT, but not the actual number.
2) Does anyone of you actually fixed it? I mean in order even to sell it, i has to get fixed first.
3) Can we put a manual gearbox on it?
Thanx!
|
|
Has everyone gone to my FB page? Ford Focus C-max 1.6 TDCI Premature Gearbox Failure. Also comment on Ford UK FB page - the more we do this the more the word gets out & hopefully together we can get this mess sorted out so no- one else has to go through problems with this car.
|
|
Since my last posting AutoLaw spent several months trying to persuade Ford to sort out this problem before we went to court, including raising the issue during meetings between senior Ford management and AutoLaw on other business. Apparently they could not find anyone ready and able to deal with what from Ford's perspective was an issue affecting a very small number of cars.
We decided last November that the only way to concentrate minds was to take my case to court. My claim and the various asociated expenses are now over the limit for small claims so we are aiming for "fast track" proceedings in the county court. AutoLaw has been advised that the cost of my legal representation in court will be covered by insurance, which apparently is a strong indication of the merits of our case. One of the advantages of this route from the perspective of any other C-Max CVT victim is that a decision of the county court in my favour would be a legally binding precedent.
Part of the evidence we would present to court would be two reports by the IAEA Assessor retained by AutoLaw (Darren Jordan). Darren's first report will be into the condition of my vehicle. His second will be into the history of premature failure of the C-Max CVT, taking account among other things of the material and experiences posted to this forum and others. AutoLaw sent my file to Darren in November. I expect to have his reports soon and I understand they will be my property to use whether or not my case reaches court.
Last week Ford advised AutoLaw that it was preparing an offer of settlement that it expected to be acceptable to me. I haven't yet seen this offer. I've made clear to AutoLaw that I want to see Darren's reports before accepting any settlement offer, that I would prefer to go to court unless Ford's offer met my claim in full and that I would not accept any settlement that restricted my ability to make Darren's report available for use by other C-Max CVT owners.
|
|
Still no sign of common sense from Ford. M'learned friends working on it.
In the meantime I see no less than 10 of these cars (less than 250 still registered on-road in UK) for sale on eBay from trade sellers. One claims
"OUTSTANDING VALUE FOR MONEY for one of the hardest diesel automatic cars to find, great reliabilty record, with very low running costs for this size of vehicle".
The traders involved are easy enough to look up. Can anything be done about this?
|
|
Funnily enough I saw the exact same advert - but those of us involved are more likely to spot these things!
It would help if Watchdog etc had been more helpful when complained to in the past.
|
|
I have read your messages of 29th Jan & 9th March and am wondering if you have had any progress.
Our C-Max auto box failed last week, and this website has only just come to my attention, so I am interested if you are making any progress.
Cab2
|
I have read your messages of 29th Jan & 9th March and am wondering if you have had any progress.
Our C-Max auto box failed last week, and this website has only just come to my attention, so I am interested if you are making any progress.
Cab2
Hi Cab2,
I heard from my lawyers two days ago that they have received an "acknowledgement of service" from Ford of a claim filed by my lawyers in the County Court. Apparently Ford now has 14 days to respond, which should give us an indication of whether they intend to fight this in the courts.
I'm not sure whether any response from Ford will address cases other than my own. As noted in previous postings I would rather get a binding court decision that the C-Max CVT was not fit for sale than accept a settlement of my case that allowed Ford to ignore other claims.
The numbers involved are so low that I would hope Ford will finally see sense and come up with a reasonable response to cases like yours. But this has been an awful long time coming and there could still be many a slip between cup and lip.
In case we do have to fight on through the courts I am very interested in collecting details of each new case of premature transmission failure. If you don't mind, please contact me at reg.pritchard@gmail.com with more background to your case.
|
|
I have a ford c max 1.6 tdci and first year we had it was fine then it started to stall and then was fine nothing came up on dash no warnings then last week it went all funny went all jerky when slowing down at a junction or lights still no warnings lights very hesitant and pulling all the time and stalling now we can use not use it at all changed the oil as the old oil was black and matalicy but still got problems i rely on this car for school runs and seeing family and i am now left with out a car and with the prices that i have seen with other people there is no way can afford the prices quoted it is sooo not fair foe people to buy these and find there are ford faults on them does any body know if it can be converted to a manual as im desperate to sort out and dont know where we stand we its an 07 plate bought from a private dealer with 60,000 miles on it does any body know if it is def the auto gear box torque converter that needs replacing as need to sell to get car for family as have nothing at the mo !!!!
|
|
Hi
From what I know so far your 2007 model should not have the CVT23 automatic gearbox which has a premature failure rate if combined with a deisel engine.
However have seen a few complaints from later model owners recently so maybe the issues were still not resolved.
I would suggest you find out exactly what was fitted in your car and if it it is the CVT23 gearbox you join the rest of us in the ongoing dispute with FORD.
If not you will need to either establish the car was sold with a fault and make a complaint to the dealer who sold you the car (get help from the CAB) or get quotes to replace/repair - it should be cheaper than the CVT23.
One other thing I read recently is that modern deisels have an extra part fitted to comply with EU emission requirements - it means that if you don't take the car on regular long motor way journeys and burn off the particles it collects you will have problems - it seems no-one is bothering to tell owners!!!!!!
Regards.
|
Hi
From what I know so far your 2007 model should not have the CVT23 automatic gearbox which has a premature failure rate if combined with a deisel engine.
However have seen a few complaints from later model owners recently so maybe the issues were still not resolved.
I would suggest you find out exactly what was fitted in your car and if it it is the CVT23 gearbox you join the rest of us in the ongoing dispute with FORD.
If not you will need to either establish the car was sold with a fault and make a complaint to the dealer who sold you the car (get help from the CAB) or get quotes to replace/repair - it should be cheaper than the CVT23.
One other thing I read recently is that modern deisels have an extra part fitted to comply with EU emission requirements - it means that if you don't take the car on regular long motor way journeys and burn off the particles it collects you will have problems - it seems no-one is bothering to tell owners!!!!!!
Regards.
Sorry should be CVT gearbox part CFT23.
|
|
For a very succinct summary of why these cars break, see the following extracts from
www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/ford/c-max-2003/?sec...d
"BY 2010, FAILURES OF Ford/ZF CF23 CVTs WITH 1.6TDCIS HAD REACHED EPIDEMIC PROPORTIONS and the cost of replacement at around £5,000 is greater than the value of the car. For that reason DO NOT BUY A C-MAX .,6TDCI CVT AUTO."
"On early (2004 build) 1.6TDCI CF23 CVTs the transmission and the ECU sometimes mismatch momentarily at around 1,600 - 2,000rpm. The reason is that the box is designed to handle a maximum of 230Nm torque, but the engine develops its maximum torque of 240Nm at 1,750rpm. The torque mismatch is the main reason for failure of the CF23 CVT."
Why Ford Customer Service continued to specify a 75,000 mile period before first inspection of these transmissions, long after the "epidemic" noted by HJ, is of course a separate question.
|
I found this regarding BMW/MINI being taken to court regarding their version of the ZF CVT
www.motoringfile.com/2011/12/15/bmwmini-sued-over-.../
baronandbudd.com/protecting-whats-right/2011/12/mi.../
I also found this ZF document and on page 11 specifies that the fluid should be changed at 45k miles
www.lib.ucdavis.edu/dept/pse/resources/cvt04/paper...f
Here is some Mini CVT discussion regarding service intervals and on the inspection.doc file states that the fluid should be change at Service 1(30k-35k) and 2(45k-50k)
www.mini2.com/forum/maintenance-mini-care/113945-s...l
I also came across this on yahoo
autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/transmission/que...l
|
|
I have an 07 C-Max and have just had the gearbox reconditioned by A1 Premier Transmissions at Biggleswade for £2117 inc VAT, collection and delivery. Their website is www. a1pt.net. This company was recommended by our local Ford main agent, T. C Harrison
|
|
|
|
