Hi all,
Popped 150% of the minimum dose in the master van about 120 miles ago and I am currently concerned about the drastic change in the power delivery. Perhaps those with greater knowledge can advise. (all of you)
The van was chipped several years ago which smoothed the power delivery out. The torque curve starts or started at 1750 and started to drop off again at about 2200 - 2300 and the motor would pull 4th from 30 mph even when 50% loaded even up a slight incline. Now what has happened is that the torque curve starts at just below 2100 and is so sudden and steep it is quite shocking, but it peaks a very short time after. However the engine revs much more freely than it ever used to do. Whereas that original 1750 rpm start was brilliant there is virtually nothing now below 2000 rpm and if below that figure and on an incline then a change down is needed. Never been known before.
The blurb on the bottle states that the full effect of the additive will be felt after a 200 mile 'cleaning period'. But I never thought that this could alter the engine characteristics so much.
Any thoughts/advice please.
Best regards...........Martin
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 13/12/2009 at 14:00
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it may be as simple as having a sticky EGr valve, may be its an idea to knock up a few more miles & when the tank is low just refill & then see how the engine reacts when its running on fuel without the cleaner
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Thanks IJ
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Was this standard DPS4 MD, and why did you feel the need to use it, were there symptoms before?
I should state i'm a regular user of snake oil for many years...but then i can afford to throw money around for no benefit:-)
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cleaner always has an additive that makes engines more powerful so if youve overdosed it that why
wait till it is running on normal stuff again and you will think its a real slow coach
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Increased Cetane. Cleaner always has an additive that makes engines more powerful so if you've overdosed it that's why
OK accepted, but why the distinct shift in the torque curve?
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Was this standard DPS4 MD and why did you feel the need to use it were there symptoms before? I should state I'm a regular user of snake oil for many years...but then I can afford to throw money around for no benefit:-)
I think a trawl back through this site will see recommendations for the stuff and from the Man himself iirc.
MD
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You misunderstand me Martin, easy to do so the odd way i write, i use DPS4 every fill up, have done so for years and will continue , i referred to it as snake oil (money wasted) due to the derisory comments from some posters here;-)
Same question though, i presume you are not a regular user so was there a particular reason for giving the van a dosing?
Can't say i've noticed any particular power increase from using, but then with regular use i (hopefully) believe the fuel and inlet system should be in reasonable condition, and long trouble free vehicle life is my primary concern.
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it may be as simple as having a sticky EGr valve may be its an idea to knock up a few more miles & when the tank is low just refill & then see how the engine reacts when its running on fuel without the cleaner
Turn's out it was a pipe leading to the EGR that had started to fall apart. The thing is now back to it's performance when it was new and had been chipped. Is pulling like a train now and on the flat will happily pull fourth from 1400 revs. Really 'digs in' at 2200.
Thank to all....................MD
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Martin, I think it's probably coincidence that this happened after you put the Millers in, and the explanation may well be something unrelated like the suggested EGR. I used to put half a bottle or more in now and again to clean up the smoke on my Scorpio diesel and that was all it did, which I put down to clearing some crud from the injectors and improving the dispersion. 150% is quite a modest dose.
Here are the views of a sadly late friend who was a fuel chemist - there are some comments about fuel and oil too, which I've left in as they are interesting -
"Millers Sport 4 additive: It does work - sort of.
It's a mixture of 2-Ethyl Hexyl Nitrate (or 2EHN) and high aromatic naphtha (very similar to a blend of white spirit and petrol).
2EHN is a Cetane booster - a measure of the performance potential of diesel fuel - and in the early phase of the combustion process, 2EHN breaks down to form "free radicals" which enhances the burn (the Chemistry of flames is all about radicals). The engine runs quieter and produces more power - fantastic. Until the engine warms up and then 2EHN decomposes prematurely and stops working :-)
The high aromatic naphtha dissolves gums and crud deposited in the fuel system right to the tip of the injectors. But once burnt in the engine, it's gone - and any ability to clean the EGR is probably very minimal.
The very best diesel fuels are the new synthetics - such as BP Ultimate, Shell V-Power and Total Excellium - all are 55 Cetane fuels and can increase power by 5% and fuel efficiency by 5%. At the bottom end of the diesel fuel hierarchy are the basic branded fuels - such as Shell diesel or supermarket ultra low Sulfur diesel - which have a Cetane index of 51. Fuels such as Shell Extra are intermediate ...
Adding Millers Sport 4 to a basic branded fuel will improve the Cetane index to an intermediate value. But if your engine is under any sort of warranty - then don't use it - the smell of 2EHN is very characteristic and lingers for months after you stop using it - and would be an instant get out for the manufacturer.
Likewise lubricating oil - at the top are full synthetic oils such as Mobil 1 ESP (for cars with DPF) and Millers synthetic - and these are true synthetic oils made from a PAO base (polyalphaolefin). At the bottom are simple mineral oils distilled from crude oil. And in the middle lies an endless stream of marketing cr@p - my favourite marketing speak includes "semi-synthetic" oil - this usually means a mineral oil that's been passed through a minor chemical process and it's nothing like Mobil 1...
And if you want to improve fuel economy - switch to a fully synthetic engine oil (from a PAO base stock - look on the can) and a synthetic gearbox oil (and rear axle oil if you have one of those)."
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... I used to put half a bottle or more in now and again...150% is quite a modest dose...
Manatee,
Small point, but DPS4 is a 'by the capful', not a 'by the bottle' product.
Not sure I'd want to risk 'half a bottle or more' which would be around 10 times the suggested dose.
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No motor company or diesel fuel system maker recommends the use of additives - in fact they nearly all recommend against it and will disqualify the warranty.
As mentioned above, Miller is basically 2EHN and Naptha, diluted with some kerosene and sold at a very high price. If you want, you can by 2EHN neat from a chemical supplier for under £10/litre and you only need a tiny amount in each tank of fuel. You can also buy it from biodielel supply companys, its sold as vggiboost for about £15 a litre. Alternatively, Wynns Diesel Super additive is about 80% 2EHN and sold in Halfords.
But you really shouldn't be using this stuff anyway.
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Hi WT. Any likely long term damage then??
regards......Martin D
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Hi WT. Any likely long term damage then?? regards......Martin D
No idea. Bu tthere are all sorts of funny synthetic materials used in diesel fuel systems these days, and this stuff might attack these materials. I have been on a few courses (bosch, Delphi) and they always emphasise that customers should be discourage from using additives and parts are not warranted if fuel additives have been used, they regard it as contaminated fuel and not coverd.
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additives and parts are not warranted if fuel additives have been used they regard it as contaminated fuel and not coverd.
Thats a bit rich when they put a bottle of their own injector cleaner in at service time.
Far as i'm aware many garages have sold and used Forte fuel treatments, especially if they have a particularly smokey Diesel up for MOT test.
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Thats a bit rich when they put a bottle of their own injector cleaner in at service time. Far as i'm aware many garages have sold and used Forte fuel treatments especially if they have a particularly smokey Diesel up for MOT test.
Quite right. There's alot of places bung a can of Forte oil treatment or petrol treatment into the car at service time, often franchised dealers when their own user manuals say not to use additives!
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Manatee Small point but DPS4 is a 'by the capful' not a 'by the bottle' product. Not sure I'd want to risk 'half a bottle or more' which would be around 10 times the suggested dose.
And I'm not taking responsibility if you do IIH! The Scorpio had an old tech VM diesel, not a modern CR with a delicate fuel system. Half a bottle is actually about 5x the dose @50litres, I used to get 70L. or so in the Scorpio, and Millers do say you can double the dose anyway, even for continual use so 150% is neither here nor there.
tinyurl.com/ybkcjf4
I take your point though ;-)
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Hi GB and others. I can cope (just) with the peaky torque step, no longer a curve, if it is for a short while, but the biggest rub is the totally flat band, and I mean totally, below 1750. It is so frustrating. Is this a sign of a sticking EGR or is it the blooming Millers?
Martin D
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... so 150% is neither here nor there...
Agree with Manatee, so I don't think the Millers could either cause or cure the 'totally flat band below 1,750 rpm'.
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Some coincidence then. 1/2 tank of this mixture left. Should I just dilute it asap with neat diesel??
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If it hadn't happened at the same time as the fuel additive I would have almost certainly been pointing at the MAF, try disconnecting it and see if things improve, if they do then a new MAF will solve your problem!
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Do you mean the air flow meter blue?
It was changed about a year ago so I hadn't though of that to be honest. I 'think' that the current effect is the same as that felt previously. I will talk to my Mechanic.
Thanks,
Martin.
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Martin, I have a Genden code reader you can use if you are just South of Leeds anytime.
It`s the basic £50 ish model, but it reads the codes on both our Mk2 Punto`s
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www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/242557/...w
aste_of_money.html
www.which.co.uk/advice/can-fuel-additives-save-you...p
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 14/12/2009 at 10:30
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orrrr - you have to pay to read it...... ;-(
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Mind you, I seem to remember Which saying, allegedly, the Ford Anglia was the future and the best car when they `tested` it alongside the newly introduced Mini in 1959.
How`s that for Memory!
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Quote from test in Which? Car magazine
" Miller's Diesel Power Sport 4
It claims: Increase cetane by up to four numbers.
Increases power- up to 17.5% more bhp
Increases mpg by up to 7%
Reduces exhaust emissions - 70% less smoke
20% less carbon
Treats 500 litres of diesel
We say (www.which.co.uk) : cetane was up, but it offered no power or economy benefits.
Is it worth it? NO
CETANE up by 3.5 numbers.
POWER, TORQUE and FUEL ECONOMY: no significant change."
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Summary from the Which report:
"You may be tempted to try some of these additives in an attempt to perk up your car?s performance, improve its economy or reduce exhaust emissions.
But the fuel additives we?ve tested seem very unlikely to return noticeable improvements in power, economy or emissions. And, like the premium fuels that we tested previously, they?re generally not worth the extra money.
If your car seems lacklustre, thirsty or smoky, try giving it a good motorway run (at least 50 miles) to clear the cobwebs and hopefully jolt the car?s electronic control unit (ECU) out of ?urban mode?.
If this doesn?t work, you may have a problem with the car, in which case don?t rely on fuel additives ? get advice from a reputable garage."
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I don't doubt that the Which? tests were conducted objectively as far as they went.
I am in no doubt though that an occasional overdose of Millers reduced the smoke for a while on my old Scorpio; and I'd like to know whether regular usage of an additive, and/or 'synthetic' fuel containing extra additives and lacking some of the crud in ordinary diesel prevents build of of deposits on injectors and elsewhere.
Not having read the Which? report, I can't be sure, but I have the impression that their tests started and finished with a "clean" car and did not really give any insight into this.
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...but I have the impression that their tests started and finished with a "clean" car and did not really give any insight into this...
I'm certain Millers made a difference when I put some in my old Focus at about 50,000 miles.
I'm not so certain Millers makes a difference on the new CC3.
My experience tells me Millers will help pull an under-performing car back up to factory spec, but it will not tune a car already running as the maker intended.
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hi all,
i recently used millers after my seat leon fr was feeling a little sluggish at 40,000 miles. I have to be honest I used about 6 times the recommended amount.
All I can say is the car feels ridiculously quick. It hasnt felt like that since I first drove it at 12,000miles.
I don't know the long term effects as I a bit worried about the dpf because I recently had it regenerated, and I know dpf's can be a little sensitive.
regards,
shazza
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My car's Owners Guide specifically warns against using fuel additives.
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