I don't know why you worry about the impact of the EU on our transport.
The Government can screw it up very nicely without any help:-(
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That's the long term problem with the EU. Ultimately everyone will put their own interests first, and to hell with the rest. The French have already demonstrated this with their ban on British beef, defying an order from Brussels to lift it in order to protect their own farmers.
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Oh dear, another grasping at straws opportunity to have a go at the EU!
Think you'll find the indications are that Ireland WILL ratify the Nice treaty.
I think you'll also find there are severe conditions on the proposed 10 new members of the EU and they wont be given bucket loads of 'our cash.'
Still, that wont stop the little englanders trying to peddle the myth, will it?
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Why is it that when anyone critcises the EU they're immediately called 'little Englanders' ?
Firstly, I've heard many Scots and Welsh people voice their opposition, many French, Germans, Danes etc. etc. too !
Secondly, whilst I'm sure some are 'Europhobes' I think the majority of those who oppose the growth of the EU have nothing against other European countries, just the concept of an unelected and expanding beaurocracy and a single central bank.
Just to put the record straight Watcher, I'm no xenophobe - my wife is foreign, I've worked/ travelled extensively overseas and made friends from countries across Europe and the rest of the world. I have nothing against foreigners at all
and would happily vote for closer links with Europe. My opposition to the Euro is not based on love for the Pound, just a real belief that a single interest rate for the whole of Europe and its very diverse economies won't work.
It's also based on the belief that the member countries will sooner or later want to take out more than the few contributors can put in. Where will that leave us all ?
There are only so many resources to go round and from what I've seen of some of the prospective new member countries I don't think there's enough money to go round at the moment.
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Well said Volvoman. Believing in retaining your national independance does not indicate some form of warped xenophobia. There are two sides to any debate and I personally believe that we are heading towards economic disaster in the name of progress.
Bigger does not mean better unless it is done properly. The USA is not the richest economy in the world just because it is the largest, it is mainly because it's Central Government reflects the national charactaristic of enterprise and initiative, unobstructed by unnescessary interference. They do not spend millions setting up comittees to decide the precise definition of what constitutes a sausage.
Unfortunately, Europe's decision makers seem to come from the ranks of socialist control freaks.
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A few points here:
(PS Mark, please read the last paragraph before deciding this is too long / too far from the subject of motoring. Thanks.)
Ireland, Denmark and Britain all joined the EU (EEC) at the same time, in 1973, so there would never have been a question of the UK voting for or against Ireland's EU membership.
To be honest, I am neither strongly for nor against the Nice treaty, as I have not been able to find enough clear information to guide me. In any case, although I grew up there, I am no longer a registered voter down South. One of the chief concerns for Irish voters at the previous Nice referendum was the change in its status as a neutral country that the Nice treaty would have entailed. This issue has since been addressed, as far as I understand. Part of the reason the vote was so narrow last time around was that there was a large degree of confusion (due to lack of clear, widely available information from any source) as to the ramifications of adopting the treaty.
Contrary to what has been implied in one of the above replies, there doesn't seem to be any significant hostility to other countries joining the EU. Rather, I think that people are more concerned about the impact of trade agreements being agreed by the EU without needing the consent or even input of any domestic governments - strike a chord with anyone?
The following is quoted from a mailing I have recently received from Equality Studies Research Centre at University College Dublin's Institute for the Study of Social Change:
<< >>
OK, back to my words again -
I don't yet know whether the services referred to in the above quote include transport or not. Either way, I think this seems to be a negative tie-in to the overall positive part of the treaty, ie the expansion of membership.
I know I haven't discussed motoring very much here, but I hope that this contribution can be treated as an attempt to contribute informatively to the overall discussion.
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Oops, part of the quote was cut off. The first paragraph of the quote (before the arrows) should have included this:
<<< The World Trade Organisation admitted the importance to it of the changes to Article 133 (of the Treaty of the European Union) in its June 2002 'Trade Policy Review of the European Union' in writing: "Of particular significance to the WTO is the exclusive Community competence that would apply to negotiations of agreements that concern services (with certain exceptions), and the commercial aspects of intellectual property rights upon ratification by all Member States of the Treaty of Nice."
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Fair enough andymc.
However, now this thread needs to go back to Motoring/Transport type subjects.
Mark.
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Eurocrats want to control our cars by satellite.
Eurocrats want us to pay cyclists who crash into our cars.
Eurocrats have made us pay for roads in Spain.
Eurocrats can have us arrested and bundled off to foreign prisons if we say "boo, nuts" to foreign (traffic) policemen.
What better reasons to say bye bye to the EU?
Back on track, Mark??
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Paul is totally wrong
The UK Governemnet screwed up Railtrack .. or rather helped.
The Last Conservative Government denationalised it in such a way it could not work.
The current Government does not build enough roads but is proposing to spend £billions on rail.. without doing anything to increase capacity.
Don't see the EU's hand there.. just typical British Government incompetence (see BSE for another example - all our own work)
Most - but not all - anti EU sentiment stops there and does not put anything in its place. Unless they plan the UK being the 52nd State.. like IDS? :-)
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I'm not saying the EU has cocked up our transport system. I'm saying that if there's less money to be spent here then there's even less chance of getting it put right.
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Wel it's not being spent right now so if the Government had more who says they will spend any more wisely?
Goverm=nment spending = waste mostly.. See the NATS fiasco!
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Along with countless others I spent endless hours listening to the TV debate on which way we should cast our vote on Britain joining the common market in 1973.
the debate was centred on the advantages of having open borders for trade with no tariffs involved.
I don't recall the expression European Union being used but it was a long time ago. However I think it must have been avoided at the time as it would have caused grave misgivings.
I personally was persuaded to vote yes on the evidence given to the people which centred primarily on trade between member states.
Nothing was ever mentioned of common currencies or the thousands of rules and regulations which have since flowed out of Brussels.
I must admit to being bewildered as to how the economics work. How can two or three nations who contribute support a multitude of other nations who are recipients and for what reason would they wish to do so. Or is this to do with International corporations being able to use cheap labour from these poor nations and still enjoy being able to sell in the EU. Perhaps someone could explain this to me and also why the road systems in France are so superior to ours.
Although we are going to have this massive injection of 264 billion.. sorry million over the next 4 years.
I admire France for many reasons, it's superb transport system, their health service but mainly their nationalism If the EU decree something which suits them they go for it. If it doesn’t forget it. Anyone who advocates similar for us is dismissed as a little Englander. So be it........
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I agree Alvin - and I reckon that at least we have a chance to change Govt. policy on transport and other issues or vote the bu£$ers out ! Try voting the European Commission out !
Can anyone really see the EU pumping money into our transport system when the if/when likes of Slovakia and Poland enter the club ? I think not ! Once again, the few will subsidise the many and the many will then compete against the few.
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The condition of the French roads is due quite a lot to the size of the country. Twice as big as ours with roughly the same population, there simply isn't the traffic density and resultant wear and tear that our road systems have to cope with. If the EU is the saviour of transport, health and all else that the pro lobby claim, then what the hell has it done for us. We've been in for thirty years, remember?
Have you noticed that the term "Little Englander" comes from the same school of debate as "Racist" does? An insult never backed up by itellectual input of any kind, designed to embarrass one's opponent into shutting up in shame.
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Yes Tom I have noticed that.
I recall at work we once had a discussion on what exactly is a racist.?
Finally a scouser member of staff who for me came up with the ultimate definition.
"Its a person who can see racism"
"Explain that John" we asked.
"Well, for example a person recently stated that the name of a school blackboard should be changed to a chalkboard because it’s racist... Only this person had seen the connection of a blackboard with racism which means they must be a racist".
Simplistic, but on reflection we had to agree.
alvin
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Just like to point out there are 50 states inthe Union (USA) and not 51 like you suggest.
The last state to join the Union was Hawaii and was numero 50, hence the old tv programme Hawaii 5-0!
I understand Guam send representatives to the American Senate(?) but the people recently voted against becoming the 51st state in the union.
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Keep your overweight, corrupt, pompous, bureaucratic Nanny EU, and much good may it do you. I'm staying where the sun shines and petrol is still (just) under one pound a gallon, where pretty much any traffic cop will forget whatever it was I said I didn't do for the price of his lunch, the women are beautiful and S-l-i-m and it's warm. Oh and beer is cheaper than Coca-Cola and the bars are open 24/366.
Now then, whose shout is it...?
PS: Please somebody sort out your NHS will you? Our nurses are some of the best in the world and you're pinching them all.
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Growler, The reason we pinch your nurses is because we now have a nation of young people who are such genius calibre we keep them at school until 18 and the one’s who can read and write send on to university.
This is called investing for the future and when they obtain their degrees in pop music or John Lennon they will contribute to the wealth and technology of our nation.
To make up for the lack of young people who in my time would have gone on to be nurses or tradesmen we import these menial but necessary skills from undeveloped nations.
For example our government have just issued 175000 work permits to the construction industry in 2003 doubling the annual inflow.
In the future when our graduates qualify we can look forward to leading the world in such diverse subjects such as rap music and board games.
We know what we’re doing growler !!!.
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...and what's all this schtick about "Little Englanders?"
So, the hold-outs against Eurotopia are "Little Englanders". Does that mean those who have been sucked in by this enormous machine can say, for example, they are "Big Germans"? Now I know why MB seats are so large and well proportioned ;-)
I lied, my gas IS more than a pound a gallon. As of yesterday it works out at one pound and one penny. Sorry for the misinformation :-(
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£1.01 per gallon ! Thanks for cheering us up Growler :-((
So it looks like the Irish have 'done the decent thing' and voted YES. I wonder how many did so simply to avoid having another referendum
on the subject ?
They said NO orginally so are we now going to get a 'best out of three' option ? I think not !
Wasn't it Henry Ford who said: "You can have any colour you like as long as it's black.'
Bertie Ahern's version goes like this: 'You can have a referendum as long as you vote yes.'
Nothing changes.
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What nonesense!
Should we have a best of three to see if the tories can ever get in again?
Your comment about the Irish voting 'yes' simply to avoid another referendum is as ludicrous as dennis Skinner's assertion that between 79 & 97, people voted tory because Labour were not socialist enough!
It is highly amusing listening to all the little englander comments about the EU when the majority of those same people would so easily sign the UK up to be the 51st state of America.
Oh I forgot, America has more in common with us despite having lots of different ethinc cultures, more than one language spoken across the country, a unified currency, 50 separate countries joined together for a common good, separate state law, common federal law etc, etc.
Mind they do drive on the other side of the road like they do in Europe! Enjoy.
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In my opinion ALL the muppets who talk about the EU - whether in or out - it's irrelevant- are missing the point completely and do it to avoid any action of OUR OWN.
We fulfil EU laws to the letter because OUR politicians and Civil Servants set the laws that way, OUR immigration system and transport is a shambles becuase WE cannot get it right and our Criminal Justice System is neither just nor a working system due to OUR fault.
And OUR judges basically say no immigrant to Britain is safe in any other country in the world.
Any blaming of others for this shambles is typical of running away from OUR problems.
(I can see why the BNP are winning votes:-(
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"In my opinion ALL the muppets who talk about the EU - whether in or out - it's irrelevant- are missing the point completely and do it to avoid any action of OUR OWN.
We fulfil EU laws to the letter because OUR politicians and Civil Servants set the laws that way, OUR immigration system and transport is a shambles becuase WE cannot get it right and our Criminal Justice System is neither just nor a working system due to OUR fault.
And OUR judges basically say no immigrant to Britain is safe in any other country in the world.
Any blaming of others for this shambles is typical of running away from OUR problems."
What's that got to do with the EU bleeding us dry, strangling our industry with thousands of Regulations and doing its damndest to get us to abandon our cars?
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Get it right Watcher - I didn't say there should be another vote but what do you think would have happened had they said no again ?? Would the EU's aspirations suddenly have ceased or would they have fudged it and carried on regardless ?
The simple fact is that there was a second vote in Eire 'cos the powers that be didn't like the result of the first vote. Hardly a demonstration genuine democracy eh !!
I don't think another vote would have been demanded had the first one yielded the desired result !
So far as the shallow little Englander taunts are concerned you still haven't told us what you call the vast numbers of people throughout Europe who also have grave reservations about the EU and so much expansion, so soon.
Perhaps they're all little Englanders who've emigrated !
Finally, I might be wrong but I haven't seen too many posts suggesting we become part of the US and I certainly wouldn't want that either.
All I want is to be able to elect those who govern us and the maintain the freedom to set our own interest rates. I love travelling through Europe and believe we can learn a lot from and contribute a lot to our neighbours. I also believe we should have closer trading and cultural links so please explain in what way this makes me (and anyone who shares these views) a little Englander ?
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I suggest you get it right. I never did say you said there should be another vote.
What you suggested is that a no vote is final and can never be revisited. Come on that is nonesensical.
Saying there was a second vote because the powers that be didn't like the first vote is simplistic in the extreme and ignores the wider context ie where would Ireland be now if the original members had of voted no to their application?
You claim vast numbers throughout the EU have reservations. Er wrong, the majority in the member states voted in favour even if this is only by a tiny minority. Doesn't the view of the majority prevail now or am I missing something?
My point about the US is based on frequent polls which show the same people who oppose EU membership would jump at the chance of the UK becoming the 51st DESPITE the principles of the US and EU being virtually the same. The only real difference is that they, the US, have had longer to come to terms with a 50 country union.
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Thanks for tarring me with the same brush then Watcher.
You're right of course that the majority of those who voted in the member states voted yes and I didn't deny that. I didn't even say that the majority of their populations (i.e. including those who didn't vote at all) were against the EU. I was asking you what you call all those who oppose the EU on the basis that according to you I'm a little Englander.
Yes the majority should prevail so why didn't they the first time round in Eire then ? You still haven't explained why a 2nd vote was necessary when the 1st one was quite clear.
Finally, are you saying the EU, the Euro and everything associated with them is reversible if we decide we don't like it. I thought the Irish had tried to do that in their first vote but nobody listened. Funny that, eh ?
I don't know of but don't dispute the result of the polls you mentioned but what was the question asked and were any other alternatives offered such as staying as we are ? I think most people here would prefer to saty as we are for the time being.
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Watcher,
Which poll exactly are you refering to that finds those against EU membership want Britain to become the 51st state of the USA? I've never seen one.
Your comparison between the US and Europe are flawed. The US is an unashamadly capitalist country, comprising 50 states who speak the same language, share the same aspirations and are fiercly proud to be American citizens. Europe is a mish mash of languages, cultures and political systems with a history of conflict between nations. We don't really like or trust one and other very much. Each countries overiding interest is in their own well being. Witness the French stance on British Beef designed soley to protect the interests of their own farmers in defiance of the EU.
Most of the arguments in favour of closer ties centre on soundbites, "We must not be left behind", "We need to be at the heart of Europe", "We must not miss out" etc,etc. That sort of logic got us into the ERM with disasterous consequenses, and it is interesting to note that those who now insist that we must adopt the Euro are the very ones who told us that we would collapse if we did not join the ERM.
We have been in Europe now for thirty years, and I would like to know what benifits we have received from our membership. I can't think of one, maybe you can enlighten me?
Or perhaps you will use the Labour Left's argument that you scoffed at earlier, we haven't got anything out of it because we are not in enough?
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Sorry Tom but you continue the myth about America. Many people in America do NOT speak english. Some speak it only as a second language just like Europe.
America has a mismash of cultures also and has conflicts between its citizens. As regards the EU and British beef, I'd suggest youhave a look into British \ EU steel and the US if you want to look at protecting ones interest.
Numerous polls have been undertaken by ICM and MORI on the subject of being a state of America. Infact,Harold Wilson explored the possibility with Lyndon Johnson around '65.
You want one example of what the EU has done for us? Where do you think we would be now if we took the 'stand alone' option ie not part of a trading pact with the EU? The majority of our trade is now within the EU. Even America prefers us to be part of the EU.
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48% of our trade is with the EU. 48% of our trade would still be with the EU even if we were not members, companies and individuals buy products that meet their requirements without worrying where the come from. That's how Japan became an economic superpower.
America couldn't care less whether we belong to the EU or not, despite that myth being peddled by the pro movement. By the way, the unniversal language in the States is English. The few that do not speak it are ethnic minorities who speak in their native tongue, to the same extent in some immigrant communities here.
Your point about the US and British Steel is irevelant. The whole point about being in Europe is that being part of the community is supposed to stop that sort of thing, and it hasn't.
I cannot see any economic benifit from thirty years of membership, but the future problems are far deeper than economic. How would you fancy being arrested and extradited to Germany because you questioned the extent of the Holocaust in a letter to a British newspaper? No British law would be broken, but because a German one had you could be tried in that country.
That piece of legislation is on the cards. The EU is in long term danger of turning into a loony dictatorship in which our power to choose who leads it is virtually non-existant.
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As usual, we get the worst case scenario brought up to try and defeat the EU.
Fact a darn sight more than48% of all our trade is with the EU (government stats. Oh sorry, cannot use them because the government's cooked them!)
Fact, many manufacturing companies in the UK want closer ties and some indicate they will even re locate to Europe if it doesn't happen.
Fact, English is the main language in America. It is not the only one and in some parts of the country, English isnt the main language ie Hispanic and latino quarters.
Fact, the USA does want us to be closer and integrated into Europe rather than be part of a bigger USA.
Maybe you cannot see what you are looking for because you refuse to see it.
If I didn't know better, Id say most of the stuff you claim comes from the UK Independence party!
Anyway, back to cars.
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This is a general discussion about the EU. It is not related to Motoring at this point.
I will check later, but at this point I do not see this thread as on-topic.
If it is still wandering down the same roads later, then I will indeed writelock the thread.
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"You claim vast numbers throughout the EU have reservations. Er wrong, the majority in the member states voted in favour even if this is only by a tiny minority. Doesn't the view of the majority prevail now or am I missing something?"
You certainly are, Watcher. Do a bit of digging. The EU's in a mess with the Euro, and there is growing and massive disillusion, including many in government. Ask Prodi what he thinks of the stability pact. They all love their cars, though (gasp, nearly lost it there...)
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"Oh I forgot, America has more in common with us despite having lots of different ethinc cultures, more than one language spoken across the country, a unified currency, 50 separate countries joined together for a common good, separate state law, common federal law etc, etc.
Mind they do drive on the other side of the road like they do in Europe! Enjoy."
Oh, god, yes..............and they say ENJOY.
Aaargh........Groan...........I need to kick the cat.
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Aaargh........Groan...........I need to kick the cat.
You'll get no effect there Smelly Puss. It won't alter the emission percentages + danger of reports to RSPCA!!!
:-)
Ps was it Noddys address u were referring to in another post??
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Good point, that. Wonder if the RSPCA gets worried about passing hot gasses through cats?
No, I was asking for e-mail addresses for the bods at the Telegraph, re dumping Rutherford and bringing in other worthies to replace him.
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OK. I doubt you get much response. These decisions are often produced by committees which are not amenable to intervention by outsiders (who are considered not to know anything about anything) Have emailed C. Moore re P Ripley yesterday. But do not expect to see any cogent response.
Happy Motoring Phil I
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Enough. There are sites for EU & polictical discussion. This is not one of them.
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