No - probably not. And the spans in question are so much smaller.
But at least there is a chance temporary bridges are possible. Not the case near San Francisco due to the spans involved.
Now what type of bridge should be built to replace is the question. The brick ones were in keeping with the lake district etc. But if there were no supports in the river in future then the replacement bridge would survive.
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Why not? The railway bridge damaged by recent flooding between Twickenham and Feltham is up and running again, after a little more than a week. They've done a very good job there on a line which had to be closed.
Why have so many people got a default setting bashing our country? We don't always get it wrong.
In Serbia, after Belgrade was blown to pieces, they installed military pontoons to serve as temporary bridges and people were able to go about their business. They are very scary things to drive across when you're not used to it, the water is very close! Perhaps this will be an option in Cumbria.
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we need bailey bridges and we want them now
when i were a lad the army put a bailey type bridge up within 10 days near where i lived when the old one fell down one night
edit
i see great minds think alike
www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/6636515/Floods-...l
Edited by bell boy on 23/11/2009 at 16:03
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There was a temp Bailey Bridge near Drymen (Loch Lomond) - about 25 years b4 a permanent replacement was built.
Might be better waiting on a real bridge assuming the diversion is modest
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there was a flyover near romford ish for donkeys made out of scaffolding
i was down there this year and i saw it was finally made out of concrete i believe
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here was a flyover near romford ish for donkeys made out of scaffolding
i was down there this year and i saw it was finally made out of concrete i believe.
Gallows Corner on the A127. Still the same 40 year old structure - closed for ages for repairs due to corrosion but now open again I believe. Road deck consisted of flat plates with angular joints giving interesting driving experience if taken at speed.
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There's still a bailey bridge over the Trent at Walton.
tinyurl.com/yben3ss (google maps link)
It's at least 25 years old, as it's been there as long as I can remember.
In a similar vein there's still a Portakabin serving as a classroom at a nearby school, again it's been there 25 years or more!
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Why not? The railway bridge damaged by recent flooding between Twickenham and Feltham is up and running again after a little more than a week. >>
I suspect that is a bit closer to London than Cumbria. Not that I would imply bias. ;-)
Edited by Old Navy on 23/11/2009 at 16:14
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"Why not? The railway bridge damaged by recent flooding between Twickenham and Feltham is up and running again, after a little more than a week. They've done a very good job there on a line which had to be closed."
Not news that suits the detractors who like to be-little this country. We do some stuff very well and an awful lot of stuff reasonably well and some stuff does go wrong. Of course that never happens in other countries....:-0
The the repair of the economic infrastructure is vital but up in the Lakes the visual appeal of any bridge is equally important as the area brings in millions every year in tourist revenue so the final replacements will have to be a sound engineering solution as well as being built quickly and to look reasonably quickly - significantly the remaining sound road- bridge in Workington is back up and running - the rail link will have had to have been surveyed and made good to rigorous standards before trains were run across it. So have faith I think is the message.
Edited by Pugugly on 23/11/2009 at 16:16
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There have been arguments about a bridge over the river thames at Walton since 1783, when the bridge that featured in a Canaleto masterpiece, toppled into the Thames
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I have assumed that a temporary bridge will be built close to Workington soon - and fast. Then with the immediate problem removed then they can plan a proper replacement.
The condemned bridge near there also carries gas and other utilities so they need to address that quickly too.
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I remember a Bailey bridge from Tanzania. A couple of years before I saw it a drunken braggart of a driver, carrying a huge bulldozer on a transporter, had ignored the entreaties of local people to go the (very) long way round, and caused the bridge to collapse so that vehicles couldn't cross it. I understand he was immediately hospitalised by the locals who knew what this would mean to them.
The bus would stop when it got to the bridge. Those passengers capable of doing so would then clamber with their luggage across to the other side where another bus would be waiting. The rich, the decrepit and those with much luggage could hire a dugout canoe to cross.
The small river under the bridge had been the haunt of hippopotamuses for most of living memory, but there weren't any when I went there (in 1980). Apparently the Tanzanian army had eaten them all on the way to defeat Idi Amin in Uganda, whose border was just a few miles away.
Edited by Lud on 23/11/2009 at 16:23
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Evel Knievel style ramps and a "Feel Lucky ?" sign would be quicker and cheaper. Would certainly liven up a trip to Tescos....
;-)
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I'd throw all those ruddy media reporters et. al. into the river and then build some sort of structure on them, using them as a base. However, when the media tire of this current news story (milking it for all they can) then they'll depart and let the really important people get on with their work.
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BBC now claim that there will be no temporary bridges in place before Christmas.
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re. Pugugly's and Alanovich "Why have so many people got a default setting bashing our country? "; and Altea Ego's mention of Walton Bridge:
1. Twickenham/Feltham River Crane railway bridge:
A quick temporary repair has been possible because " ... Engineers have designed and built a small loop around the track crossing the crumbling arch, on the adjacent site of the former Feltham marshalling yard. .... It will allow trains to cross the river safely while Network Rail continues to repair the permanent structure. "
A look at Bird's Eye view on Bing.com/Maps should show why this is possible at this site.
2. Walton Bridge
It is worth noting that a "temporary" bridge was built in 1955 at Walton to replace the previous one which was damaged in the 2nd World War.
SurreyCC say that :
" Walton Bridge carries approximately 30,000 to 31,000 vehicles per day, of which approximately 1,200 are Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs).
... in 1985, the fourth bridge was given a thorough inspection and assessment which led to the first weight limit of 24.5 tonnes.
Maintenance work continued to keep the bridge safely in use until a permanent replacement could be constructed, but inspection and re-assessment in 1993 led to a reduction of the weight limit to 17 tonnes.
Following the annual assessment in 1996, the inspection interval was reduced to six monthly. The inspection in June 1998 showed the need for further strengthening works, but it was still necessary to reduce the weight limit to 7.5 tonnes.
The current river crossing is a temporary bridge that was erected in 1999. It was only designed to last 10 years, but an inspection undertaken in February 2008 has shown that, with appropriate maintenance, the life of the bridge can be extended. Planning permission to retain the temporary bridge until December 2014 was granted in January 2008. "
So since 1955, Walton Bridge has been a temporary" structure, for a major A road carrying traffic to Heathrow, and which on many occasions serves as a bypass when the Staines/Chertsey/Leatherhead section of the M25 is blocked.
I hope that Cumbria gets its bridges repaired and re-built quicker than Surrey.
Edited by jbif on 23/11/2009 at 17:07
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The current river crossing is a temporary bridge that was erected in 1999. It was only designed to last 10 years
We go in for more long term thinking in Norfolk. Bishop bridge in Norwich was built in 1340 and is still in good shape although pedestrianised a few years back.
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My post was in reference to the bailey bridge in Walton-on-Trent in Derbyshire.
It's amusing that there are 2 bailey bridges in 2 different Waltons, the one in Derbyshire having been built in 1974, as a temporary measure, of course!
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Whats hopes are there, when it has taken Surrey County Council almost 10 months, or maybe slightly less to construct a roundabout to replace a staggered, dangerous junction at Judge's Corner, Snowhill nr Effingham on the outskirts of Felbridge and East Grinstead.
Months of an unnecessary and tedious diversion and due to some unforeseen problems now wont be finished until next month - my God and Cumbria are expecting replacement bridges!!!!
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- my God and Cumbria are expecting replacement bridges!!!!
How did the Japanese manage doing what they did at Kobe?....There was some serious finger pulling out over there, wasn't there.
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Used to be a Bailey bridge over the river between Portinscale and Keswick put up after floods in the late fifties.
Several years before it was replaced but, IIRC, the area was part of plans for the A66 route throgh the vale of Keswick.
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Properly built bridges don't get built overnight anyway - they are complex pieces of engineering and will need to be able to withstand a one in a thousand year flood (how does Benn know that ??) - I honestly think that he speed at which bridges are the least of most affected residents concerns at the moment. The whole area is in a real mess, and I really feel for them. But one thing for sure knowing the Cumbrian people they will overcome. My heart goes out to them.
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Properly built bridges don't get built overnight anyway - they are complex pieces of engineering >>
The delays I quoted earlier regrading Walton bridge were nothing to do with engineering, but all to do with planning procedures, plans being rejected, resubmitted, public inquiries being held after the application was called in by Prescott, then Government dithering over the proportion of Central funding, compulsory purchase orders, etc.
and will need to be able to withstand a one in a thousand year flood (how does Benn know that ??) >>
He was told that by the allegedly scaremongering climate scientists at the Met Office. Scaremongering because they claim these type of 1 in 1000 year events will soon become scores in a 10 year events.
www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2009/pr...l
www.ukcip.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task...2
Edited by jbif on 23/11/2009 at 20:26
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How did the Japanese manage doing what they did at Kobe?
All bridges rebuilt in 9 months which considering the size of the task is quite an achievement.
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How did the Japanese manage doing what they did at Kobe?
All bridges rebuilt in 9 months which considering the size of the task is quite an achievement.
The above is to illustrate that I find it difficult to read a reply when the point being replied to is not shown in quotes or by the use of arrows >> thus >>.
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Pompous/pedantic mode on/
As someone who served in the Corps of Royal Engineers, I am reasonably confidant that what many of you are referring to as "Bailey Bridges" are almost certainly NOT Bailey Bridges.
They may well be "Heavy Girder Bridges", but Bailey Bridges - I think not.
Pompous/pedantic mode off/
I am enjoying the thread though.
Edited by drbe on 23/11/2009 at 21:22
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Pompous/pedantic mode>>
An expert's input is always welcome, even a pompous, pedantic one. :-)
Whats the difference, Bailey / Heavy Girder?
Edited by Old Navy on 23/11/2009 at 21:30
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As I understand it a bailey bridge uses pontoons which float on the river and a roadway is then put across to allow emergency crossings.
This wouldn't work in Cumbria yet as the rivers are too high and the pontoons and roadway would simply catch debris, causing more problems.
tinyurl.com/yk8mze9
The other type which is mistaken as a bailey bridge:
tinyurl.com/yjf3cse
I'm sure Mr Pedant will correct me if I'm wrong:-)
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I'm only an unsuccessful trainee pendant but will offer an answer that I hope will suffice until my betters return.
Mr Bailey designed his bridge during the second world war as a modular kit of parts, each part being capable of being lifted by just manpower. Think of it as a big Meccano set. These parts can be put together in lots of different configurations. Some would be pontoon bridges but most would not.
Modern temporary bridges will use many of the same principles but where craneage is available, different larger modular systems will be more cost and time effective.
However the man in the street ( or the Backroom ) will call all temporary bridges "Bailey bridges" as a generic term.
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Wiki entry on Bailey Bridge: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey_bridge
"The Bailey bridge is a portable pre-fabricated truss bridge, designed for use by military engineering units to bridge up to 60 m (200 ft) gaps. It requires no special tools or heavy equipment for construction, the bridge elements are small enough to be carried in trucks, and the bridge is strong enough to carry tanks. It is considered a great example of military engineering."
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However the man in the street ( or the Backroom ) will call all temporary bridges "Bailey bridges" as a generic term.
That's fair.
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There were two temporary bridges in place carrying the A1 over the East Coast Main Line at Biggleswade in 1992:
bit.ly/4C7R5I
The bridges were in place for just under 5 months and the bridges carried tens of thousands of vehicles every day. I remember them well as I was travelling between Letchworth and Sandy on a regular basis at the time.
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I'm proud to state that my grandad was in the Royal Engineers and constructed a number of temporay bridges both for invading forces and in the rebuilding in peace time. Sadly he's no longer with us for his advice. I concur with several others that getting the balance of some immediate temp structures in now will aid the community to rebuild more quickly than delaying things to get the right structures in place.
Normal planning rules will be relaxed for this. The poor person in charge of the county council has only been in post for days too.
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Network Rail have done a great job at Feltham! I use the line a lot and I pitched up at Waterloo last Thursday with 2 minutes to catch my Reading train. Asked a helpful chap "Which platform please?" and was told there were no Reading trains. Got on one to Twickenham and was told to catch the replacement bus to Feltham in the car park. Went out of the front of the station, found a bus, showed the driver my train ticket and he said OK. After about 10 minutes my ancient pilot navigation instincts cut in and I found I was in an ordinary bus going in the wrong direction! Got out, crossed the road to go back to Twickenham and narrowly missed being run over by a Golf doing about 50 in a 30, on sidelights. Got onto the right bus, got to Feltham and travelled on, getting to Reading 90 minutes late on an 80 minute journey. As someone has said they have built a loop/bypass and the service is back to normal in less than a week. The damaged bridge looks very badly weakened.
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As someone has said they have built a loop/bypass and the service is back to normal in less than a week. >>
Yes, they have engineered and implemented a solution remarkably quickly, albeit there was existing disused infrastructure that enabled the alternative to be found.
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>> As someone has said they have built a loop/bypass and the service is back to normal in less than a week. >>
Must not upset the London commuters must we? I would put money on nothing being replaced in Cumbria for months, unless the Royal Engineers get the job.
Edited by Old Navy on 24/11/2009 at 10:20
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Thread title reinstated.(as in de-hijacked)
Edited by Old Navy on 24/11/2009 at 10:25
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We have had a "Bailey" bridge in Chelmsford(Essex) for as long as I can remember(a long time).Used to be used for vehicles but is now a footbridge-the "Bailey" footbridge beside it has been closed.Seeing that there are two more footbridges within 150 yds. it could be sent to Cumbria.It would have to be one-way or tidal.
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Thread title reinstated.(as in de-hijacked)
>>
Map of Cumbria showing closed and collapsed bride locations.
I had not appreciated that some affected bridges are miles and miles from Workington
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8375580.stm
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Oddly enough ON I was checking the state of the train service as I am using it to go to London on Thursday; on Monday there were 25 minute delays caused by "Disruptive Passenegers" accoridng to SW Trains website. Perhaps London commuetrs were upset!
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As someone who served in the Corps of Royal Engineers
was that Sapper drbe or were you a rupert?
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This all reminds me of a famous quote from operation market garden
Lt. Colonel J.O.E. Vandeleur, Commanding Officer, 3rd Battalion Irish Guards:
"When you refer to Bailey crap I take it you mean that glorious, precision-made, British-built bridge which is the envy of the civilized world?"
Edited by Altea Ego on 24/11/2009 at 10:47
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Just heard on TV that Railtrack intend to have a station, complete with platforms, foot bridge, and ticket office built on the south side of Workington "Within a few days".
Someone has their act together! I wonder if it will have a car park. :-) (Motoring link)
Edited by Old Navy on 24/11/2009 at 11:19
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I think it's the north side: tinyurl.com/yjsuupn
And yes it will have a gravel car park.
More here:
www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2009/11/24-a-new-s...l
Edited by rtj70 on 24/11/2009 at 11:24
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Sorry, blame a male trying to multitask.
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I wonder if Railtrack can repair Motorways?
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I wonder if Railtrack can repair Motorways? >>
Didn't Railtrack itself go belly-up?
If the M-ways were owned by the operator who could directly earn revenue ("tolls") from the vehicles that used the roads, and/or were subject to penalty charges for loss of use of the roads, I am sure the owner/operator would soon find ways to build and repair them quickly.
It is interesting that Network Rail seemingly will be allowed to build a temporary station without having to go through the hoops of the local planning permissions process.
Edited by jbif on 24/11/2009 at 11:46
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It is interesting that Network Rail seemingly will be allowed to build a temporary station without having to go through the hoops of the local planning permissions process.
Just shows what can be done, I bet any protesting demonstrators would get an appropriate welcome from the local residents.
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It is good to see this sort of quick response.
(I note that the only reply to the NCE item is from a pedant ) :-((
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For those really interested in Bailey Bridges the following link is to a slide show of some americans putting up a Bailey Bridge.( from Focus's wiki link )
www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/sets/72157603518285535/
It really is big boys' Meccano. Maybe we need James May on the case!
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Will they get the Pay and Display machines in too?
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as another former sapper i can let you all into a little secret the reason we havent seen the deployment of baily / temp bridges at a speed of a thousand startled gazelles in the flood effected areas is because we dont have any left......the were all taken to bosnia in the late 90's to replace most of the bridges that were destroyed there.
the only bridges the R.E's have deployed in the last ten years have been M.G.O.B, H.G.O.B, and A.B.L.E.
Edited by rtj70 on 25/11/2009 at 00:23
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just for info
M.G.O.B - Medium Girder Over bridge (looks a little like a very big meccano set only just not as much fun to put together)
H.G.O.B - Heavy Girder Over Bridge (used primarily over damaged culverts as it only has a span of about 20 feet and even less fun to put together)
A.B.L.E - Automated Bridge Launching Equipment - Remote controlled off the back of the truck bridging system ....... this one is loads of fun!!!!
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Thanks Welsh, Thats the sort of information the back room thrives on, useless but interesting! I hope the Official Secrets Act enforcers don't kick your door in at 5am one day! :-)
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