Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - martinalexander
I currently drive a 14 year old Volvo 940 estate with MOT and Tax expiring in January. It goes okay but I have a feeling it is on its last legs (struggles to get above 50, reaches 60 in about 10 mins on a flat road and doesn't really have any vim when trying to start uphill at the traffic lights). Body work is okay, bar a few scratches and small dents and the does still essentially do the very basics. I'm looking at a variet of cars all priced around the £1500 - £2000 mark and what I'm pondering is how do you negotiate (can you negotiate much) in this price bracket?
I'm rubbish at haggling and have always come away from car deals thinking someone else would have done a better deal so I'm trying to work out the best way to approach such a deal.
Is it better to try and trade-in the Volvo or leave it out of the deal and try and work on the power of cash? I might put the Volvo up on Ebay and see if it gets any bids in an auction or I might consign it to the recycling centre. Would a small dealer give anything for it?
Most of the cars I've seen on the web seem to be untaxed or running out of tax and I wonder whether this is a negotiating point in my price bracket? The age and engine size of the cars I'm viewing would give 12 months tax at £190 - is it reasonable to expect that amount of money off or tax thrown it on a bargain car?
A £1500 car with no tax is really (cost to me as a buyer) a £1700 car - is it better to say 'how much off for the Volvo? or how much off for cash, or a combination or none of the above! Any thoughts much appreciated.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - daveyjp
Spending £1500 on any car is always a gamble - unless you know the history. It might it be worth leaving your 940 with a mechanic and getting him to diagnose the problem.

If you have to spend £1000 on the 940 you are still up on the deal.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - MVP
See if you can get the Volvo sorted - in this price range it's the devil you know or the devil you don't !

MVP
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Chris M
Agree that it's better the devil you know. Bangernomics is all about knowing when to
get rid of a car. It's so easy to stick two news tyres on, followed next month by an exhaust, followed by XXX the following month, then something more expensive fails and you realise you have coughed up £500 on a car that's off to the scrappers.

Suggest you find out what's wrong with the Volvo first. Can you get cheap MoTs where you are? They're currently available for £23 where I am. It may pass, it may not. If it passes it will be more saleable, or you may decide to keep for a bit longer.

If you are set on a replacement then now's the time. Don't wait for the Volvo to die, as your new car will become a distress purchase. Look at prices in the local press, ebay and Autotrader and have a look around. Set your budget for the particular car you viewing and if the seller won't agree, walk.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - jacks
First try to get a quote to sort out the Volvo - it might be something relatively simple that's causing the lack of power (when was it last serviced?) , then once you know what it is it will be worth getting an MOT from a decent small repair garage and a quote for any repairs. don't get an MOT from a "fast fit tyre and exhaust" type of establishment as you will find that your car need tyres, exhaust, brake pads, discs, cylinders, shockers, 4 way wheel alignment and anything else that they specialise in.

If you do end up deciding to get a new car:

I've recently (last week) been through the same search on behalf of my son when his Ford Ka
was damaged beyond economical repair.
I found that there were very few private sales around in the £1500 bracket - presumably as many would be private sellers have been taking advantage of the scrap scheme.
We decided on an Astra G (needed low insurance and a robust car) and a 40 mile radius search on Autotrader yielded 60 hits with only 2 being private and one of those was an auto which was unsuitable.
If you use Autotrader try not to buy from the home trader types (look at the background of the photos and avoid if the car is pictured outside a house on a rough looking estate).
I managed to find a couple of cars that were being sold by small garages that had repair workshops as well as a used car operation. In this type of set up they are more likely to properly check the car and be able to put right any issues.
Compare any chosen cars with similar examples on Autotrader and don't pay too much - in the sub £2K bracket you might get a couple of hundred off max - if you are firm. Insist on a new MOT with any purchase together with a clean HPI data check. Give cars a good test drive - the car should impress you,it should drive smoothly with no obvious concerns, unless you're sure leave it alone.
If the dealer offers to fix any faults before collection be wary - better to find one without faults in the first place.

Good Luck.

J
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - woodster
I'm with Jacks to an extent. Trawl through the local papers and autotrader but get to know the different areas. Genuine private sales from decent homes are few and far between but worth seeking out. Take cash and be reasonable. Your offer really depends on how much you want the car, but a decent household may well not need the money so much and be pleased to make a quick sale, but you don't want to be sent packing having insulted someone. Check your values and make a reasonable offer. A good sale is one where both parties are happy. And do go looking without cash in you pocket. You need to strike when you find what you want. I've sold cars for less than I could have got because a buyer had cash, whereas an earlier visitor offered me more but would have kept me waiting until Monday. Few people will wait.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - adam f
Woodster's right. If someone turns up to me with cash in hand then the chances are i will sell it there and then for a offer close to my asking price (i am selling my car for £1550 with a view to getting £1400)
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - OldSock
£1500 to £2000 = bottom end of the market?

You've made me feel like a pauper, now :-(

I'd echo the good advice offered by others.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Mapmaker
£1500-£2000 is not the bottom end of the market.

Something like eBay item 260487938938 would have done you very nicely.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - martinalexander
Thanks for all the valuable feedback. Unfortunately, the Volvo has got to go - I can't afford the risk of investing money in diagnosing/repairing its problems as that money will have to come off my 'new' car budget. So £100 to find out it needs more money spent on it is £100 off my £1500-£2000. It's also drinking petrol, I'm sure I'm on about 15mpg and although it has served brilliantly through a couple of house moves, it's not suitable long term lifestyle-wise. On another thread "Jimny or Terios", I highlighted those two cars as potential replacements and I've now expanded the list to include also the Suzuki Ignis and the Toyota RAV 4 - anything bigger than those sizewise would be problematic and probably too hard on the pocket.
I've only bought from a private individual once and probably feel less comfortable doing that than buying from a trader. But I get the impression people think there's better value to be had using that route?
I would expect with a private sale to get at least a couple of month's tax (there isn't the convenience factor of the dealer taxing it for you, saving the hassle of waitng for cover notes through the post and so on) and a new MOT private or trade.
So, cash would be the only currency for the private sale and do you think 10% is a reasonable haggle margin?
How would that compare with a dealer? Is 10% reasonable on a forecourt price? Too low/too high?
Is trying to bring the Volvo into the deal just confusing the issue - does it weaken my bargaining position with a dealer - ie he offers to take it while reducing the price by 20% or less ("it's not worth anything to me/i'll take it off your hands as a favour" kind of approach) I guess I'm not sure whether it has any vale at all!
Thanks againg - food for thought!
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Alby Back
Make Rattle an offer for his Corsa. It has had more or less everything replaced or fixed !

Or you could have my Mondeo estate but that would be subject to a candidate suitability interview by my son ( aged 9 ).......he wouldn't let "Betsy" go to anything other than a very good home and even then........

;-)
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - adam f
This is my personel take on my own buying and selling.

I tend to have a few phone calls with the person im thinking of buying the car from first, I generally get a good idea if they are honest about the car and how they have looked after it. I always take money with me or i will see how far away the local branch of my bank is from them and go and get the cash out if i like the car. Cash in the hand is always - in my opinion - the best way to buy a car private (obviously depending on how high the price is - dont fancy turning up to a unknown are with X amount of thousands in hand)

Majorty of the time, selling is a pain in the rear. The majority of cars i have had have been Mk3 golfs, E36 BMW and these generally get enquires from the "woz ur lowest price bruv" idiots. I am more than happy to spend 10 minutes on the phone to a prospective buyer and talk about the car but these morons are total timewasters and it really infuriates me. Anyway, the people i like are the ones that are generally interested in my car and ask me lots of questions. They turn up, have a good look round and if they like it they have the cash there and then or they have a decent deposit (£100 / £200) and they are willing to take the car away in a few days.

So in answer to your question - take the cash with you and start your first offer at 20% below asking price with a view to getting between 10-15% off the car.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Lygonos
I think you are in a risky position, as it appears you have virtually no mechanical knowledge (not a criticism, just an observation).

This makes you incredibly vulnerable to dodgy 2nd hand cars, where the sellers will lie through there teeth to sell a pile of steaming rust as if it is perfect.

Just read most ebay adverts to see this in action.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Chris M
I've only ever bought a couple of cars privately, but sold many.

I wouldn't expect someone to turn up with cash in hand and I doubt it would make any difference to the price I would accept. When selling I would expect say a 10% deposit and the commitment that the buyer will return within the next day or two with the balance and take the car away. This can be stated on the receipt, along with 'non-returnable deposit'. They would need a day or so to arrange insurance. If I were the buyer, I wouldn't pay for a car without first arranging cover. What if it gets nicked between paying over your cash and arranging cover?

Keep the Volvo completely out of the deal. It will be more trouble than it's worth to the trader. If you can't sell it on ebay, take it to the scrapyard and hopefully get a few quid.

As for a discount, that depends on what you think the car is worth that you are looking at. If you do your research and it's worth £1,500 and the buyer is asking £2k, you have a bit of negotiating to do. Most sellers will be trying to maximise what they get although some may be more realistic. If you find one in great condition with new tyres, exhaust, 12 months MoT, some tax, then it's worth a bit more than one without. You have to play it by ear.

Don't get hungup on finding a car with tax though, you will have to arrange insurance cover and once you have your cover note it's easy to get the tax from the PO.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - legacylad
Having owned in excess of 40 cars, and driven for 36 years, I have only ever bought two cars, and one van, from a garage. My very first car, a Mini Clubman estate, from my next door neighbour with whom I played squash. He was a car salesman and had taken the Mini in p/ex and let me have it cheap before it went to the auctions. My second was an Elise, ordered in '95 and taken delivery of in '97. The only problem I have ever had selling privately was my last Legacy estate...it was the wrong colour & spec so my fault for buying it.
I always buy from friends and contacts, and have (touch wood) never had a duff car yet, although some have not been the most glamorous ie Marina 1.8TC, Avenger 1600 and a Fiat 128!
Having worked in retailing for most of my life, I am a fairly good judge of character, and when I accompany friends to look at private sales, take more notice of someone's house than the car. If the back garden has dog poo scattered around, or the front door is peeling and faded, we walk. It reflects directly on the vendor and I always use these criteria as a rule of thumb. Crackers I may be, but it serves me well.
You should have no problem finding a good, reliable car locally from a private seller. Just use common sense and walk away if anything causes doubt.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Mapmaker
Sell the Volvo on eBay. List the faults honestly - as you have above - and you will get between 200 and 500 pounds (admittedly a complete guess, but somebody will put it back on the road). Sell it in a 10 day, no reserve £1 start auction. £100 start price if it makes you feel happier.

If you try selling it autotrader my guess is that it will take forever.


Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - DP
Having worked in retailing for most of my life I am a fairly good judge
of character and when I accompany friends to look at private sales take more notice
of someone's house than the car. If the back garden has dog poo scattered around
or the front door is peeling and faded we walk. It reflects directly on the
vendor and I always use these criteria as a rule of thumb. Crackers I may
be but it serves me well.


Not crackers at all. I work to similar criteria, and haven't bought a duff car either. I buy from people I like.

The other, often overlooked indicator of a good buy is a low number of long term owners on the V5. A car owned by a handful of owners for a long time is not only likely to be a good one (people don't hang on to bad examples of cars), but is likely to have been looked after if the car was a long term ownership prospect. A car with lots of short term owners is likely to either be a Friday afternoon job, or to have been neglected as it was always intended to be moved on quickly. Neither are good for you as a buyer.

Lots of other little indicators too - are the tyres matched sets, and are they a decent brand? If they've put cheap tyres on it, they are likely to have skimped elsewhere. Is all the paperwork tidily filed together, or are there bits missing? You can't really expect a main dealer history at this price (although they can be found), but are there parts receipts. Stamps are easily forged and worthless, but invoices, particularly if they have the credit/debit card slip still stapled to them are much harder (invoice numbers can be verified with the establishment with a simple phone call).

Always HPI the car, and always take the serial numbers of the V5 and MOT certificates and check those too. Again, gauge the seller's reaction when you mention this. If they've nothing to hide, they won't mind. Quite the opposite actually, as it shows you're not just a tyre kicker.

If you have a mechanically minded mate, take them along though. Apart from the additional knowledge, two pairs of eyes are always better than one.

But above all, trust your gut feeling. Any niggling doubts whatsoever, or if anything doesn't add up, just walk. There are thousands of other cars out there.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - bell boy
WOW DP
you may care to buy one of these too then?
Paint thickness tester
Gunson says its new tool tests the amount of body filler or sub-standard repair on a vehicle. "It's an ideal tool for checking the state of a car, van or truck before you buy", says Linda Tueton from the firm's marketing team. "Simply hold the tool against the vehicle's bodywork; a green LED will show if the paintwork is to an acceptable standard and a red LED shows substandard paintwork or body filler." The Gunson Paint Tester costs £7.99.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - martinalexander
Thanks all - lots of good advice. I will certainly consider private sellers as a good potential source. The plan is to buy the replacement car first, hopefully for no more than £1500 then I'll put the Volvo up on ebay with a frank description and see what happens. Any money back would be better than none. I have practically zero mechanical knowledge so car buying is always rich with possibilities of making a fool of oneself.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - TheOilBurner
I think maybe you should re-consider. You have a perfectly good Volvo with probably a minor fault that an indy should be able to fix quite easily and cheaply. It's probably something really daft like a blocked up air filter, or worn plugs.

And yet, you want to give it away and buy somebodies neglected pile of junk for £1500 and be stuck with whatever unknown issues that might have? Let's face it, it will either be a treasured car that someone is bored of (unlikely) or a troublesome heap that someone wants rid of (more likely), and you admit to not being able to tell the difference...

Are you sure you're doing the right thing?

Edited by TheOilBurner on 27/10/2009 at 14:31

Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Andrew-T
Buy somebody's neglected pile of junk for £1500 ...


I don't think so, O-B. These days that price will buy a whole range of decent cars, some of them hardly out of warranty if the mileage is high. It shouldn't be a 'pile of junk' or you will certainly have been ripped off.

But the declared fault with the Volvo sounds like a misbehaving choke or temp.sensor. Whatever it is, it doesn't sound expensive to fix (tho on a recent car it could be :-( )
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - TheOilBurner
I don't think so O-B. These days that price will buy a whole range of
decent cars some of them hardly out of warranty if the mileage is high.


Chances are, at £1,500 it's either done mega miles or getting on a bit, or both in some cases. By that stage in a car's life it's almost certain to have had at least one uncaring owner who couldn't wait to get rid when they could see bills round the corner... How many £1,500 cars do you think will have had cambelts recently replaced, recent tyres on, etc etc?

And what happens on a modern car when something major and complicated goes wrong...
it doesn't sound expensive to fix (tho on a recent car it could be :-( )


There you go, you've said much the same thing yourself... :)

Not for me thanks, especially, if as the OP has, you already have a fundamentally reliable car that probably has a very minor fault that could be fixed quite cheaply, no doubt.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - adam f
My car im selling has just had (last 2k) 4 new tyres, cambelt change, 12 months MOT and oil and filter change. myself and previous owner have both looked after the car well. its a 2001 with 63k. I want £1550 for it.
There are some rubbish cars out there but there are also some very good ones too. I'm only selling because of the comfort factor, Not because i am worried about upcoming bills etc..

Edited by adam f on 27/10/2009 at 16:45

Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - jacks

.
There are some rubbish cars out there but there are also some very good ones
too.

True - but for every one like yours there's a dozen lemons.

J
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - jacks
I tend to agree with the above poster -TheOilBurner- get the Volvo checked out first. You mentioned that you couldn't afford to waste £100 getting the faults diagnosed, Take it to an independent repair garage and simply ask for an estimate of what's wrong and how much it would cost to put right.
Nobody will charge you £100 to do this.

Look in the local yellow pages - the chances are there's a Volvo independent specialist who could quickly diagnose what's wrong.

If you don't know much about cars you could easily waste £1500 on a (good looking) heap of junk. I'm not being disrespectful to you but you have to ask WHY someone is selling a £1500 car - would you be thinking of changing the Volvo if it was running well and giving good trouble free service?

Most (though of course not all) people who want to sell a good reliable genuine car that is worth around £1500 will know someone who knows someone who's looking for a car and it will go by word of mouth. If the Volvo is declared a terminal case by a decent mechanic I'd try to ask around your friends and contacts and pick up something this way before taking the risk of buying a car you don't know from an owner about who you know even less.

Jacks

Edited by jacks on 27/10/2009 at 16:55

Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - DP
I don't know where in the country the OP is, but I can recommend a good Volvo indie a couple of minutes from J4 of the M3.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Andrew-T
You have to ask WHY someone is selling a £1500 car ...


Two reasons: (a) that is about the value the price guides show for a car of that age and mileage. You can't ask much more unless it is exceptional; (b) the owner either wants a change or doesn't need it any more.

Of course there will be many poor examples out there, and it can become tedious looking at one after another. But that doesn't mean they will all be lemons. The point of this thread is how to tell them apart. I don't think asking round one's family and acquaintances guarantees a good car either.

Edited by Andrew-T on 27/10/2009 at 17:18

Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - jacks
>> You have to ask WHY someone is selling a £1500 car ...
Two reasons: (a) that is about the value the price guides show for a car
of that age and mileage. You can't ask much more unless it is exceptional; (b)
the owner either wants a change or doesn't need it any more.

I don't think asking round
one's family and acquaintances guarantees a good car either.


or(c) They know it need hundreds spending on it so they are hoping to offload it onto someone who knows little about cars.

(d) They are a home trader who bought the car for £500 at the Saturday morning part exchange auction - they've removed the bulb fom the annoying warning light that would otherwise come on - and he posing as a private vendor selling it "because I bought it for the wife/daughter/mother and it's too small/big blah blah"

Of course asking around one's family and friends won't guarantee a good car (and I didn't say it would guarantee a good car) but hopefully one would at least avoid being ripped off and that's a good starting point!

Jacks

Edited by jacks on 28/10/2009 at 11:08

Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - martinalexander
Whilst I'm very fond of the Volvo the truth of the matter is that even if it was running fine, I would still want to change it although I might feel more confident in arguing its case as a trade-in if it felt mechanically sound. It's just too big for where I live at the moment and the overhangs at the front and back bang off the speed bumps and driveway. It is a car that I paid £1000 for a year ago and it's saved me the cost of two lots of removals - it's paid for itself completely. Long-term though the petrol consumption is a big issue - any car that returns 30mpg will be halving my petrol bills. And the experience of joining a motorway at 40mph and finding there's no acceleration coming through is not one I've enjoyed at all! Even when doing a steady 60mph if I apply the accelerator further there's a tremendous roar like a large fan being switched on (could that be the turbo?) and the car loses power rather than gains. Eventually the speed picks up but it's defintely not normal. It's had two oil changes(one as part of a small service) since I bought it but this problem has just come on in the last month or so.
My expectations are I think, achievable for £1500 and I'd be happy to find something with a couple of previous owners, 80-90,000 miles, reasonable bodywork, some recent service history and up to 10/12 years old depending on the car. There are lots of cars about that fit that description but it's a matter of picking the most honest example - without any mechanical knowledge and being rubbish at negotiation!
The Jimnys I've seen all seem very clean but there aren't many about and they're up around the £2k mark. I haven't been able to find a Terios nearby at all. Same with the Ignis. I've seen a couple of Rav 4s about, one which looks very nice for a 10 yr old car and I'm tempted by that. My reasoning is that it (like the volvo) would have been expensive when new and the first owners at least would have been likely to take care of it, it's got about 100, 000 miles on the clock but the Volvo had 120,000 when I bought it. Not sure - I'm still stewing on that. I don't want to hold out for a Jimny or Ignis and find that I'm forced into a rash purchase when the Volvo's MOT runs out.


Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Happy Blue!
I just keep reading martinalexander's posts and I shake my head. No no and thrice NO! The Volvo is a banker if not a keeper. You will not sell it for £1,000 in its current condition (probably less than £500), but for £100 it could possibly be fixed so the economy issue and performance issue go away. It does not make sense to throw away a Volvo like this - they are in some demand for the same reason MA bought it - it is a large load lugger.

It may be too big for your current needs, but if you are so skint that you can only afford to buy someone elses rejects at no more than £1,500 then you are being stupid to throw the Volvo away. Get it fixed, if it will cost no more than £250, and then you are possibly £1,000 better off to put towards a better replacement.

Buy a £1,500 car with £1,500 and if it goes wrong you have no money to fix it and you are off the road and can't afford to do anything else. Buy a £1,500 car with £2,500 and you have either £1,000 in the bank or money to spend on repairs - keeping you on the road.

Do whatever you want to do, but simply throwing the Volvo away is a total waste of YOUR MONEY.
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - TheOilBurner
I just keep reading martinalexander's posts and I shake my head. No no and thrice
NO! The Volvo is a banker if not a keeper.


100% agree, but he's said it himself:
even if it was running fine, I would still want to change it


As has been pointed out many times before on here, most people are looking for justification for what they wanted to do anyway. If they don't get it, then all the good advice goes to waste...

:(
Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Lou_O
£1500 will buy a Honda Accord 1.8 from around 2000 or 2001. These cars go on for ever and have decent performance and economy.

The OP is happy to throw out the Volvo rather than spend anything on it but has to accept that it's probably worth next to nothing as is.

I was in a similar position a while back when I had an old Mondeo v6 that I was bored with, I got rid of it for peanuts and bought a 2001 Accord. It's done me fine for 40k miles, barely spent a penny on it.





Negotiating at the bottom end of the market - Cliff Pope
Why not register with the Volvo Owners Club forum, and put the question simply in the 940 section.
Anyone local care to come and suggest what might be wrong?
Anyone want to swap a poorly running 940 for something smaller?

There are people around who love these cars. If it were a 240 for example, near to me, I'd snap it up in return for helping you find something else.