As I have neither SUV nor dog nor cat, does that entitle me to triple carbon credits??
You will note that the authors come from my part of the world, where a large number of working farm dogs are necessary, especially in the high country that is pictured as our great tourist attraction. { Dogs outnumber landcruisers anyway.} The authors are academic architects who are also fanatics about saving the planet. 'nuff said.
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>>Great story in the Telegraph today - if you own a 4x4 and get some grief from a greenie who owns a dog, you are entitled to call them a hypocrite:
Marvellous! That is the first new contribution to the 4x4 debates here for about five years! I've never 'got' dogs but I've never tried to tell anybody else they shouldn't have one.
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"A medium-sized dog has the same impact as a Toyota Land Cruiser driven 6,000 miles a year, while a cat is equivalent to a Volkswagen Golf."
---------
While our cats certainly have a 0-60 time equivalent to the Golf, they are not nearly as good as carrying stuff around, I find.
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Our dog is a 4x4 anyway. Most of the cats and dogs I've seen are 4x4s. I've also seen the occasional 3x3.
Those kinds of studies just highlight for me the total twaddle which gets spouted by various anti everything groups. It's why I take all global warming propaganda with a bucketfull of salt
I suggest that very few of us drive the car we need but most of us drive the car we want.
Edited by mjm on 26/10/2009 at 14:09
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HJ thinks the well-heeled sometimes buy big 4X4s so that they won't be baulked or held up by speed bumps. And it is certainly true that a vehicle with high ground clearance and long-travel, well-damped, robust suspension would make these damned obstructions less of a pointless, car-trashing nuisance.
People go on at length about the inferior handling and stability of such vehicles. I am sure they are right in many cases, but certainly not all. Range Rovers used to be a bit dodgy with unwary gung-ho driving for example. But in a way I would quite fancy a Porsche Cayenne if I had that sort of income. Very rapid motor, almost certainly got a good ride (never been in one though) and I bet it's difficult to bang any part of it on the road.
As for their being too big and getting in the way, it's a driver issue. Lots of drivers get in the way with Corsas and Minis.
Edited by Lud on 26/10/2009 at 16:09
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I would love an X5 or Cayenne and the income to run one.
But they are just too big for local multi storey car parks...Fun to watch if some driver tries to park one and gets stuck..:-)
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I've never owned or had long term use of an X5 but I have driven one a fair bit. Strangely, they don't feel all that big when you are driving them. They are actually lovely things to use. Effortless.
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I find the old HiLux 4x4 pick-up useful here on the Isle of Skye. Don't need it everyday mind.
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Going back a little I was referring to the needless use of larger vehicles consuming precious oil stocks. I drive as econmically as I can. Work - 60mpg in Megan. We foster kids so 7 seats was essential, with some luggage space (they come on holiday with us). But the Espace was only used if needed. In my experience there are a few people who do require the extra traction that 4x4 gives. They don't always need something disco-sized, eg Panda would do, or x-type as JC demo'd a few years ago on TG. But no, some people choose to buy the posh 4x4 with little regard to their waste. My sister has just got rid of her big Merc 4x4 as she now realises that she doesn't "need" it. Having a young son has made her think about what what might be left for him. My suggestion was that many people do not think about their purchase in those terms and subsequent postings demonstrated this by many.
The larger 4x4 around town for no good reason suggests selfishness, arrogance and even greed to some. I for one would get rid of vehicles with high bhp/weight ratio's, and whilst Gordon is doing his best to tax out the more poluuting vehickles, unfortunately "being able to afford it" types are often those least likley to be thinking of their own personal affects on the envirnment.
By the way I vote labour not Green, I recycle what I can, take the train when I can and don't fly (except once 16 years ago). I do grow some of my own veg and try to buy what is grown locally where I can. So maybe I am more green than others, but I'd like to ensure my kids grow up in a world that protects as far as possible the limited resorces we have.
Solar thermal installed two years ago and solar PV going on very soon too. and yes I do feel smug, but also privalaged that I have been able to save enough money to be able to do this as a token to my kids of the world I want to leave behind.
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the picking on of 4x4's was a politics of envy angle rather than a true green concern when it first started to happen...because at that time is was still fairly common for people to have 2 litre petrol cars, which weren't as efficient as the average 4x4 diesel was (and many 4x4's were/are diesel)
my own car and those like it, a 3 litre petrol, were fairly popular 10 yrs ago...yet they don't seem to get picked on as much
...so why are 4x4's?
I can see why people would want a large 4x4 i.e. driving position, robust build and interior space.
If we as a country are really worried about our environment why aren't we planting shed loads of trees and instead of giving corrupt dictators all our Aid millions, using that cash to persuade China and India to cut back a bit and protecting the rainforest. Some Sloane's Range Rover makes a piffling difference compared to those two's usage and pollution....and whilst we're at it the amount of fuel used in the ship that carts all the Prius's about the world versus the extra fuel a Range Rover would use in a lifetime compared to a small car
...tenner says the Range Rover would come out on top of that comparison, even the supercharged petrol version....i.e. the Prius's lifetime ave fuel consumption inc it's share of the ships fuel used compared with the home grown RR.
There's a lot of hypocrisy on this subject.
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Well said Westpig. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Edited by andyfr on 03/11/2009 at 07:18
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TBH much of the furore surrounding 4x4s its more that they are "unsuitable" for urban environments due to their bulk... its ok for the driver of the vehicle, but for everyone else, other drivers, pedestrians and cyclists it makes things much more dangerous, and thats why I dislike them... they are totally unneccessary for things like shopping or school runs...
Having said that, I feel all cars are getting too large these days, this country's roads are just not suitable for the size of vehicle we are now producing... I wonder how long it will take before the manufacturers stop increasing the size of their latest model... if ever...
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>>I wonder how long it will take before the manufacturers stop increasing the size of theirlatest model... if ever...
The gradual increase in size allows a new smaller model to be introduced at the bottom of their range. Probably with a great play on how "green" they are, hoping we will not realise what they are doing.
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Towing a horse box and getting anywhere near my house in the snow ?.
I think if you want/need one its down to the individual ? nothing at all to do with anyone else!?
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I think if you want/need one its down to the individual ? nothing at all to do with anyone else!?
If you need one then fine. If you just want one, then perhaps consideration for the safety and convenience of others should be part of the decision, unless selfishness is the main consideration.
This is what is becoming seriously lacking in our disintegrating society: I was bought up to believe that consideration for others is a far more important, desirable and admirable quality in a person than selfishness.
Sadly, it appears this is a sentiment which has gone somewhat out of fashion. Too many people think they will achieve the admiration of others by belting around in over powered tractors and commercial off-road double cab pickups.
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If you need one then fine. If you just want one then perhaps consideration for the safety and convenience of others should be part of the decision unless >>selfishness is the main consideration. This is what is becoming seriously lacking in our disintegrating society: I was bought >>up to believe that consideration for others is a far more important desirable and >>admirable quality in a person than selfishness.
You are the one being selfish. You consider that your view is the only important one. If someone wishes (not needs) a 4x4 double crew cab animal ninja wotsit...then so what.
You might want a large t.v. or go fishing at the weekend or fly on holiday once a year or whatever. There will be someone out there who will have a negative view of each and every one of those.... and the rest that I haven't mentioned.
It's called personal choice and freedom.
Unless you are living in a tepee, grow your own food and walk everywhere you are really in no position to dictate to others what they should or should not be doing, as you'll be doing some yourself.
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WP, If you read my opinions properly, you'll find I have no objection to farm vehicles being used on the roads on environmental/green grounds. I'm what you may call a "Climate Change Denier", or religious heretic as I would have been called centuries ago. Interesting to read in today's Independent that those who hold "Green" beliefs now have the same protection under employment law to behave according to those beliefs as those who hold traditional religious beliefs. It has, finally, become a religion itself, and as such immediately strikes me as something worth opposing. Anyway.
I think my view is the most important one, not the only important one. Don't know where you get that from. Otherwise I wouldn't hold the view. Same goes for everyone. Your argument seems to me about as bizarre as those who believe the "anti 4x4 brigade" to be envious.
I am in no position to dictate. I am merely stating opinion. However, no doubt if I were in that position, I'd end up like Ceaucescu.
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Alanovich,
If I choose to buy a 4x4....and the likelihood is in the next 5 years or so I will....I wouldn't expect anyone else to call me selfish, because I have chosen to do so... particularly if I looked at their own lifestyle and I could no doubt pick a few holes in things if I were minded to do so.
That's the only point i'm making. If you think 4x4's should be restricted to farmers and true need only, fair enough...but many others would think differently... and you did put a poster on here somewhat firmly in their place...which I thought was a tad over the top...so I poked my oar in.
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particularly if I looked at their own lifestyle and I couldno doubt pick a few holes in things if I were minded to do so.
Fine. I'm a big boy. If someone wants to call me for selfishness about something, then fire away. I'll either agree and do something about it, or argue my corner as you are doing.
That's the only point i'm making. If you think 4x4's should be restricted to farmers and true need only fair enough...but many others would think differently... and you did put a poster on here somewhat firmly in their place...which I thought was a tad over the top...so I poked my oar in.
I feel strongly about the subject and express my views accordingly, particularly when patronised.
Kind of sharpens the senses when you know someone who's been dragged under one and turned to jam. Yes, I know, all road vehicles can be seen as presenting a danger, but I just don't see the need for anyone to present a greater danger than necessary. Hard to draw a line which everyone could agree on, but I know where I'd draw it. I doubt you'd advocate "Monster Trucks" being suitable for British roads as part of "individual freedom to choose". Maybe you would, don't mean to be presumptious.
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I suspect iffen they lived in some of the small hill villages in Spain or Portugal ( from personal experience) or Italy (from repute)
they would prefer a 4 by 4 Panda to a RR/X5 any day
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I hope no one hates me now just because I've got one. It's not my fault, I was given it. Secretly I do rather like it though. Should I say that ? Ooer...... I must be a bad person after all.......
;-)
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Of course you're a bad person HB. But we are used to it.
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He's only slightly bad, its a soft roader, not a "real" 4X4. :-)
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Yeah, it is a bit of a girl's car. Must go and get some mud on it to validate it a bit.......
;-)
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Haha ... if I buy what I want and it means Im selfish ... then so be it ... the rule 'consider everyone else' could be taken to any extreme .... I would never buy a car because Mr Smith down the road doesnt like it ... as if!?
If pople are 'bothered' about such things they seriously need to get out more - there are more important things to be worried about!
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I'm out now as it goes, worrying about some spectacularly important things, upon which lives may depend. What cliched tripe you write. As if? As if?? Right back atcha with a "talk to the hand", if we're embarking upon street argot. And from someone worried about a teeny cosmetic repair to a car they are considering buying, and thereby being scandalised about the perceived honesty of others. You're concerned that the seller is being selfish in trying to get as much money as possible from you, but dismiss the suggestion that your own attitudes may be considered by some as selfish.
But hey ho. Such is the 21st century. You 'ave woteva you fancy, sis. 's no-one else's business, izzit?
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Meow ... only my opinion! That's what forums are for!? You dont like mine .. I dont like yours - nobody said we had to agree!
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Well that's true, but patronising fluff will often be responded to in kind.
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Put your handbags away girls! :-)
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Put your handbags away girls! :-)
i'm trying to disprove that other thread about how cvilised the Backroom is....;-)
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Put your handbags away girls! :-)
Working briefly in a small African capital in the early eighties, I became friendly with a couple of Nigerian army officers who were part of an OAU peacekeeping force. When off duty they carried dainty little black zip-up leather pouches with a loop to go over the owner's wrist.
Noticing the solid clonk they made when placed on a table or bar, I asked what was inside them. Browning nine-millimetre automatics, that was what.
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Is this nonsense still going on? As my wife can often be heard to say, jog on.
Going by some of the logic used on this thread, people should be banned from having more than one child, therefore making it possible that they all drive an Aygo sized car as it is only family or vanity that creates the need for anything more.
Thing is though, id not tell my Mormon neighbours to stop reproducing ( they have a 9 seater Transit currently and having been married to a Mormon woman, having kids in large quanitities seems to be encouraged ) nor would I say to someone that they should own a vehicle that only meets their most basic transport needs. Its kinda the whole point of living in a democracy isnt it?
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I'd normally keep my opinions on progeny proliferation private, but Mormons I'd make an exception for:)
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Thing is though id not tell my Mormon neighbours to stop reproducing ( they have a 9 seater Transit
Ah, but Stu you've just proved the whole point of the thread... even they, with their large family, don't need a 4x4... it just proves the point that 4x4s are just a fashion accessory in a large number of cases, and in the wrong locations (outside schools for instance) they can be dangerous as well...
Edited by b308 on 04/11/2009 at 20:46
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Not at all. You cant see around a Transit any more than you can a 4x4, its just as large.
The point is, in a democracy, you dont have to justify your vehicle choice so long as its legal. Unless of course you come here. I think anyone with a car bigger than a Fiesta simply has too much car or has had too many children, but I wouldnt ever impose that idea on anyone else.
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I think anyone with a car bigger than a Fiesta simply has too much car or has had too many children but I wouldnt ever impose that idea on anyone else.
OK accept you wouldn't impose that idea on anyone else but that assumes your car is only ever used for carrying people at most. If you ever need people plus substantial amounts of luggage or your professional life involves carrying bulky objects around then at minimum you'd need an Estate car - especially those who happen to have one of our four-legged friends too.
For myself I feel the Mondeo class car is about as efficient as it gets - big enough to have space to carry an 8' x 4' sheet of ply, but not 1/3 of the fuel consumption of a supermini.
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Two adults, one child fits ok in a supermini, especially the bigger ones we have become accustomed to these days. You can buy small estates - the Fabia estate is very efficient for its size and quite honestly, a dog is a choice, an added extra to life like having 5 kids or taking up surfing - you do those things and you extend your needs on purpose - id allow for one child as becoming a parent is a genuinely emotional desire for many rather than a frivolity.
I do have a lot of time for these utility mpvs like the Berlingo however - they seem to have very decent interior space without the need to be huge, but then they are based on space efficient van principles rather than the lavish waste of space too often seen in mainstream cars.
I also think that having a roofbox for the occasional extra luggage space with a supermini is quite acceptable ( we have purchased roof bars and a box for our Sirion for holidays ) rather than having a huge car for the occasional need of extra space - its like driving a Transit luton van because every now and again you might move house.
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a dog is a choice
and how, for that matter, can anyone other than a shepherd, cowman, or blind person justify a dog? Apparently a middling sized one has about the same climate change impact as a Land Cruiser driven 6,000 miles a year.
(I exclude the dog-owing Alanovich from this question as he rejects climate change IIRC)
ON's question was not perhaps meant to be taken the way it was, but this whole discussion is ludicrous.
Edited by Manatee on 04/11/2009 at 23:43
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ON's question was not perhaps meant to be taken the way it was but this whole discussion is ludicrous.
It is ludicrous, but also rather sad...sad that dog ownership is frowned upon by some as a frivolous extra, despite the joy it can bring....sad that a larger car is frowned upon, because you could physically fit things into something smaller....sad that 4x4 ownership is seen by some as selfish and a 'look at me' gesture, when it could quite easily be something else .... (and even if it was a vanity purchase, so what, it's their money).
..when all that is happening is people in a democracy are exercising their rights to do as they wish, with what suits them for the circumstances they are in....and that I have no doubt whatsoever that some of the frowners, do things themselves that somewhere, someone else would frown at.
Should we all live in 2 roomed shacks rather than houses, to lower our carbon footprint?.
For what it's worth, I drive a large car (with 99% of the journeys with just me in it). I enjoy it, I get pleasure from driving it, in fact immense pleasure. No po faced killjoy is going to change that...... Now imagine a Churchillian hand gesture.
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Precisely Westpig, my comment was TIC. We either accept that people make legal choices, or we accept commissars telling us which ones are politically acceptable and which aren't, and shortly afterwards what to think and say.
I don't 'get' dogs as it happens, and regard them as a nuisance, but I haven't berated anybody for owning one.
I do think they should be taxed about the same as a Toyota Landcruiser though ;-)
Edited by Manatee on 05/11/2009 at 07:33
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It is indeed sad these things are frowned upon. The idea that anyone has the right to expect others to change their ideals and preferences on what are quite frankly, minor areas of their life such has how big your car is, is so petty - there are FAR bigger problems in the world.
I by the way dont care for dogs myself, but my nan was a European dog show judge and breeder so I grew up with them and I wouldnt ever say someone shouldnt have one, just that like a big car, its an individuals choice to spend extra money on something they want - dogs are a sore point atm since a neighbours dog made a mess on my lawn - a Landcruiser wouldnt have done that :-)
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and how for that matter can anyone other than a shepherd cowman or blind person justify a dog? >> (I exclude the dog-owing Alanovich from this question as he rejects climate change IIRC)
My dog is my burglar alarm, and a way to teach my children how to handle and care for animals, and not be scared of them, as they are growing up in town. The street I recently moved from had many burglaries, often involving the theft of cars by the taking of keys from inside. This never happened to anyone with a dog in the house.
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Missed the edit. Meant to add that it's a Jack Russell - no need for anything bigger to do the job of making a noise and putting off burglars from trying my windows. It's also a vegetarian, like me. I'm sure that will come as no surprise to those who think me a po-faced miserablist or whatever.
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