Honda - Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral.

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Mon 5 Oct 2009 19:37
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
Hi
I have a deauville 650cc motorcycle. It has 25000 miles on the clock. It has a problem whereby it is very hard to engage into neutral. All other gears are ok. I have also noticed that the gear change is very stiff.

When the engine is switched off, it gets into neutral with the utmost of ease. Can anyone advice me of what this might be?

Thanks
Gregory

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 05/10/2009 at 19:52

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Mon 5 Oct 2009 20:35
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
I think it might be something connected to the link. How easy would it be to take apart, and what parts are likely to be needed to deal with this issue?

Greg
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Tue 6 Oct 2009 12:55
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
I am thinking it might be the gear change links or even clutch cable adjustment might be required. Any thoughts?
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Tue 6 Oct 2009 17:38
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - sumpnut
If it is hard to change when stationary, but will change easy when still rolling, then it sounds like clutch drag. If there is excessive slack at the cable then that should be adjusted until its about 3 to 4 mm.
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Tue 6 Oct 2009 21:56
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - davecuk
Definitely sounds like the clutch needs adjusting as any drag at all will make it hard to engage gears.

I hae a CBR1000 and it was the same....gear changes are always easy when moving...changing up anyway, no clutch needed ;-), but I use it because I am old and poor.
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Wed 7 Oct 2009 10:10
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - DP
I agree with the posts above. If it's OK with the engine switched off, it's almost certainly the clutch, and adjustment is a good starting point.
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Wed 7 Oct 2009 16:46
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
I have tried to adjust the clutch as per the haynes manual, and it is doing the same thing. Where should I think about fault finding now?

Thanks
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Wed 7 Oct 2009 17:21
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - sumpnut
When you say you have tried to adjust the clutch I assume that is a figure of speech, and that you have completed adjustment as per the manual but the problem still exists.

If this is the case put the bike on the centre stand, put it in first gear, pull in the clutch and try to turn the back wheel. If it does not turn with relative ease the clutch is dragging.

This can be caused by several things such as bent, worn, or jammed plates. This most times means a clutch strip to find the cause.
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Thu 8 Oct 2009 19:22
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
Thanks for your replies. I adjusted the clutch, and even went to my local mechanic to ensure I hadn't overlooked anything. The problem still persists however. The back wheel turns with the centre stand with the clutch engaged.

I have looked in the haynes manual about changing the clutch friction plates. It looks quite involved. Can anyone point me in the direction of a video that walks through how to change clutches on motorcycles? I looked on youtube and google but I could not find anything adequate.

I was thinking along the lines that I could attempt it myself and replace the clutch plates inside together with new springs. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Greg
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Thu 8 Oct 2009 19:56
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Dynamic Dave
The back wheel turns with the centre stand with the clutch engaged.


Perfectly normal. Seen many a bike do it.

Same applies to a car. Raise the driving wheels off the ground, start engine and engage gears with the clutch in and they'll turn as well.
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Fri 9 Oct 2009 21:30
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Simon
Does it have a wet clutch? Is the clutch & gearbox lubricated by the engine oil? Have you tried changing the oil, or has it been done recently with the correct grade?
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Sat 10 Oct 2009 23:10
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - johncyprus
This was a well known characteristic of the NTV650, I don't know if it was sorted before the NTV 650 morphed into the Deauville. When I rode my NTV I found it best to engege neutral before coming to a standstill.
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Sat 10 Oct 2009 23:51
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - AndyT
This was a well known characteristic of the NTV650 I don't know if it was
sorted before the NTV 650 morphed into the Deauville. When I rode my NTV I
found it best to engege neutral before coming to a standstill.

I remember from a Deauville forum, that riders often commented on the same issue, and used the same technique when rolling to a halt.
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Sun 11 Oct 2009 14:46
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - DP
>> The back wheel turns with the centre stand with the clutch engaged.
Perfectly normal. Seen many a bike do it.


Yup, totally agree. My ZZR does it, as did my ZX7R and SWMBO's old GPZ500S

In fact, this is a good sign, as it shows the chain is in good nick (any tight links prevent the wheel turning under these circumstances). It also shows the rear brake isn't binding.
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Sun 11 Oct 2009 15:48
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - sumpnut
Sorry I think I have not made it very clear that you turn the back wheel by hand against a dead engine.
After the first bit of stiction you should not feel much resistance, showing the clutch is disengaged and not binding. Not so good a test if you have a rear disc brake or tight chain.

Some bike models always have this problem and selecting neutral when still rolling is the easy answer, but if it is a problem that has developed from a system that worked o.k. in the past, then it may be worth repairing.

As regards to help doing the job get someone who knows about bike repair to help you, perhaps one of your biker friends, or club member. You do need care as bike bits can break easy, especially when using an impact driver.

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Mon 12 Oct 2009 10:39
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
During idling, there is a rumbling noise that the mechanic heard. He thought it to be quite excessive. Do you know what might be the cause of this noise. It sounds like it occurs when the clutch is engaged; it seems like a rough knocking noise.

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Mon 12 Oct 2009 12:53
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - mickyh7
Just change the complete clutch ! If your keeping the bike anyway. The clutch may have had a torturous life before you got the bike. Its not such a difficult job anyway.You should be able to buy pattern parts to keep the price down. Look in MCN at the services page.
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Mon 12 Oct 2009 19:13
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - nfield750
OOn many bikes, it?s very hard to find neutral when at a standstill, this is normal, just select neutral before you stop.

If the clutch is dragging (as is not disengaging - see test below), I'd be be inclined to check for a nice smooth action from the cable and check that the cable isn?t hanging on by a few strands just before it snaps. Unless the clutch plates are warped (the Deauville is not exactly in GSXR boy racer territory), I'd be inclined to check the operating mechanism behind the cover before splashing out on springs and clutch plates. These engines are normally tough and trouble free

As was said previously, bung the bike on the centre stand, engine off, in first gear, pull in the clutch and rotate the rear wheel by hand. There should be the same resistance as with the bike in neutral, hand off the clutch (there may be some initial stiction). The gear lever should move freely against the return spring until the next gear engages with a click, you will have to jiggle the rear wheel backward and forwards to move up and down all the gears

If you start the bike on the stand and leave it in neutral, the rear wheel will turn slowly as a result of oil drag in gearbox. This is normal and more pronounced with a cold engine.

Of more concern is the excessive rumbling that your mechanic mentioned. Some clutch rattle/rumble on tick over in neutral is normal, especially with a cold engine. The noise should disappear when you pull in the clutch. Balancing the carbs/fuel injection can reduce the rattle/rumble. If its really bad, I'd remove the clutch basket and check the integrity of the damper spring assembly on the main gear

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Tue 13 Oct 2009 16:22
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
"On many bikes, it?s very hard to find neutral when at a standstill, this is normal, just select neutral before you stop"
This also happens when going...it is equally challenging to find neutral.

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Tue 13 Oct 2009 19:04
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - sumpnut
If this is the case, and your mechanic can hear noise he is not happy with, then now is the time to bite the bullet and strip the thing down before more damage is done.
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Fri 16 Oct 2009 16:52
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
www.fixya.com/motorcycles/t1883933-honda_deauville...0

I looked at this site saying motorbikes don't like 10w40 car engine oil. Is this correct?
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Tue 20 Oct 2009 17:11
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Gregory II
Can anyone shed any light on whether car engine oil is good to use in a motorcycle. Is there any difference between the different types of car engine oil that would suit a motorcycle engine better, i.e. 10w40 semi etc?

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Tue 20 Oct 2009 18:21
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - DP
Motorcycle oils are designed for the stresses of a motorcycle engine - i.e. shared oil between transmission and engine, and the high revs that motorcycle engines are capable of. I know people who've used car oils, but I wouldn't recommend it. Motorcycle oils are not that much more expensive, and are designed for the job. It makes sense to me to stick with the right brew, and avoid any question marks.

Cheers
DP
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Tue 10 Sep 2019 16:33
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - edlithgow
Can anyone shed any light on whether car engine oil is good to use in a motorcycle. Is there any difference between the different types of car engine oil that would suit a motorcycle engine better, i.e. 10w40 semi etc?

The two main potential problems with car oil are

(a) friction modifiers (FM), which can cause clutch slip in a wet-clutch MC transmission, and

(b) low levels of ZDDP anti-wear agent, which is being phased out of PCMO's due to long term catalyst poisoning potential. Only very recent motorcycles have catalysts.

Best bet if you use non-motorcycle oil is to use HDMO's i.e. those primarily intended for commercial diesels, but with dual API rating. You don't want any API grade more recent than SJ, and earlier is better.

Most motorcycle oils are API SG, which is an obsolete PCMO grade.

It can be quite difficult/impossible to find out about FM and ZDDP content, (though the former can be tested on a suck it and see basis) so its worth checking this topic on motorcycle forums, where it is/was much discussed. IIRC Shell Rotella is popular.

I was using Mobil Delvac MX 15W40 because I could get it.

I dunno what I'll use if I resume motorcycling. The Mobil V-Twin stuff looks good, though pricy.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-v-twin-motorcycle-oil

Re clutch pack rebuild, have only done one, on a Yamaha RZR 133cc obsolete 2-stroke.Gearchange was much improved on cleaning up the clutch plates, but that was on a neglected bike with contaminated gearbox oil.

THAT bit was fairlystraightforward and successful but there were other problems related to the obsolescence, lack of documentation and parts availability, 2-strokeness, and my cluelessness.

Looong thread on it here.(people were very patient) but the photo-links are all broken (platform change, or maybe a Flikr issue) so not much use

https://tw.forumosa.com/t/rzr-revival/51204/84

Edit: Actually the pictures are still there if you copy and paste the address, just not displaying. Perhaps too tedious to trawl through though.

Edited by edlithgow on 10/09/2019 at 16:49

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Wed 11 Sep 2019 02:50
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - edlithgow
Can anyone shed any light on whether car engine oil is good to use in a motorcycle. Is there any difference between the different types of car engine oil that would suit a motorcycle engine better, i.e. 10w40 semi etc?

Further to my last, I doubt its worth using synthetic oil in a shared-sump system, since it gets contaminated relatively quickly so you lose any stability benefits with short change intervals.

It might be worth it on a 2-stroke, IF it wasn't sucking transmission oil into the engine through a dodgy crankshaft seal.

Here in Taiwan thicker older-spec oils are still available, motorcycle oils don't have much price-premium (though lately some of them claim catalyst compatability, a BAD sign) and you can get away with straight weight (i.e. NOT mulltigrade) oils year-round. These are better lubricants and are less subject to shear, which shared-sump transmissions do a lot.

Srtaight weight oils may not be an option in the UK climate, but you don't want a wide spread, so nothing with a 0 or a 5 at the front. 10W40, 15W40 or 20W50.

There's a Castrol "Go" 20W40 MC oil here (dunno about the UK) which isn't expensive, but unfortunately it claims catalyst compatability.

Edited by edlithgow on 11/09/2019 at 03:02

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Sat 14 Sep 2019 04:55
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - edlithgow

Some current fairly relevent examples in this oil-obsessives discussion.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5211937/uoa-2019-re-himalayan-mobil-1-15w-50

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Sat 10 Aug 2013 00:22
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Rich L

I have had a similar problem since replacing my clutch friction plates with pattern parts. All adjustments are fine, and finding gears is no problem. Neutral can be selected easily if the bike is moving with the engine running, but not at standstill.(1st or 2nd gear selection from neutral is fine at standstill). With the ignition off, neutral clicks in easily. No problems prior to changing the clutch plates. All I can put this down to is the first plate, which is slightly different to the others in the Honda originals - it has small grooves in the middle of the tangs and a slightly different friction material pattern. The pattern set plates are all the same (except the last one, which has a different internal diameter, as per the oe plates). I guess that the small grooves in the tangs must have an effect on the clutch when the bike is at standstill with the engine running, as there are no other differences to setup after changing the friction pads. Perhaps your bike has had the clutch plates changed for non-oe ones in the past.

I will try removing the plates and filing grooves into the first clutch plate to match the original when I next carry out an oil change,to see if this cures the problem as it is not a major issue at present.

(I have tried adjusting the clutch cable from the point where the clutch slips with the lever fully out ie tight cable, to where the cable is so slack the lever pulls back to the bars to engage the clutch, with no success)

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Sat 10 Aug 2013 18:42
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - mss1tw

The gearchange on my Africa Twin (Same engine) gets grumpy as the oil gets older - I change every 4000 miles.

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Sat 14 Sep 2019 10:12
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - KenC

I acquired a 1994 NTV650 with 44,000miles on clock, I noticed a similar issue with finding neutral at a standstill, I found by rolling the bike gently backwards 6/10" ( whilst sitting astride it) and selecting neutral ( from 1st) helped.

I sold it at 55,000 miles with the original brake discs pads front/rear still less than half worn.one of the best all round midweight bikes I have owned.

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Mon 9 Sep 2019 12:44
Deauville 03 650cc hard to engage neutral. - Rich L

I had exactly the same problem after fitting a set of pattern clutch friction plates to my NTV. Had the first plate changed by the supplier, as it did not match the Honda one. Still wiuld not engage neutral when stationary. Problem cleared itself completely after about 2000 miles riding around, can only put it down to the clutch plates bedding in and wearing down slightlly. Now done another 45,000 miles, so expecting another clutch change soon...

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