This has happened to me twice and today my dad each time an older woman in a small car (it might have been the same woman that happened to my dad not sure).
There is a small but conjested junction near me known as the four banks (there is a bank on each corner and then some). There is stop lines at each corner of the junction for the lights. However just before the stop lines the road is painted red so to act as a pedistrian crossing.
Three times now somebody has gone over the stop line (on green) but due to traffic get stuck in the middle of junction realising the lights are changing instead of clearing the junction they suddenly stop before the pedistrian crossing (even though the red man is still on and the lights still haven't changed). This means that the junction is now completly blocked and cars coming the other way have no where to go. This results in a load of beeping and the stupid car just sits there like a lemmon.
When I got stuck behind one pedistrains were even shouting at her to move. As you can see there is no stop lines, no repeater lights on the left side no reason at all to stop here unless the exit was not clear but in all cases it was.
tinyurl.com/ykldv9y
Sooner or later this is going to cause a nasty accident because the driver behind won't expect somebody to suddenly stop in a junction.
Edited by Pugugly on 03/10/2009 at 00:28
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I know exactly what you mean, Rattle. We've got this sort of junction set up all over Southport and very often cars turning left (or indeed right) will suddenly slam on when they see the red pedestrian crossing markings and the red light of the traffic lights on the road they have just turned into, even though the patently have right of way. 'Brain dead' doesn't even begin to cover it...
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I think that's a bit unfair really - lots of drivers will be encountering these contradictory bits of signage for the first time. I know of one locally, that despite the fact I know its OK to drive through it always flags up in my mind as being "wrong". Traffic signs and associate paintworks should flow logically and not send contradictory messages - the human brain is designed in a way to scan what is being inputed through the senses and make incredibly quick decisions based on processing the data presented, if illogical/conflicting data is being processed the mind will find it difficult to react correctly. Add the fact that people "fear" punitive fining by cameras this will be enough to tip the balance and scream STOP. I know it easy to criticise but consider that all drivers haven't got the lightening reactions of Backroomers.
Rattle consider that some drivers in your square mile may fear it as much as you feared Motorways and the A55 on your trip to Anglesey !
I don't understand the Brain Dead comment either.
Edited by Pugugly on 02/10/2009 at 21:25
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Pug I agree especialy at some junctions which can be quite complicated but if you look at my map you will see how simple this junction is. Ok at one end there is no right turn apart from for buses, I can see how than can confuse people who are not used to the area and even if people are turning they might get confused and see a junction and think STOP but if you're going straight on you should be able to read the road well enough to realise.
I've also seen people at other junctions drive right passed the stop line and stop before the red crossing.
I can see some 1970's style public awareness programmes coming on!
I am by no means a perfect driver by a long stretch but I do always at least attempt to read the road.
Pug yes I am aware of that also but as far as junctions go this is as simple as they can come, so if they fear this then they must fear everything.
My gripe was not really about drivers getting confused, more of drivers being confused by a simple junction.
Edited by Rattle on 02/10/2009 at 21:29
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Rattle, are you sure they are not conforming to Highway Code rule 170?
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I don't understand the Brain Dead comment either.
Perhaps I was a little harsh there, but if you turned left (on green) at traffic lights and then saw a red light immediately as you turned, would you really think 'Eh up, I'd better stop' or would you think 'well, that's obviously the traffic light for the road I've just turned into.'?
I can understand what you mean about not being familiar with the area, but most fairly intelligent people know what the basic layout of a junction is and I don't really see how what amounts to a bit of red paint on the floor can confuse someone into thinking that they have to stop. I mean, who would stop whilst turning right? Your car wouldn't even be straight! Surely that would alert the driver to the fact that they might have got things a tad wrong?
Incidentally, PU, you made some very valid points there. And I'm not in 'Mod Schmooz Mode' either... :-)
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Nope they are not comfirming to any rule. You really have to be there to see the chaos it causes because while they are stopped the other lights change but their exist is now blocked because somebody has stopped in the middle fo the road for no reason other than a bit of red paint on the road.
I don't want to sound harsh here :)
Edited by Rattle on 02/10/2009 at 21:41
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I have thought of posting on this before - I'd prefer to blame clumsy road design than drivers. If a streetscene misread is a regular occurrence at any junction it should be remedied. There is sign overload all over our roads - think about it when you're out and about next, ideally in an unfamiliar location.
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I do all the time but here the repeater light is on the wrong side of the road so I think they have even thought about one. The road markings are worn but that dosn't cause this problem.
There are lots of confusing junctions but there is a different matter. My pet hate is when markings so worn and you're stuck in traffic so you can't read which lane you're supposed to be in. All junctionsd should have a street sign as well as painted in the road so people can plan in advance what lane they should be in.
Pug you have suceeded in making me feel a bit guilty about my original harsh words :)
Edited by Rattle on 02/10/2009 at 21:44
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Just looked at the Google street view and came back to make the same comment - sounds like a badly designed junction. If it regularly presents drivers with an obvious crosing point with a red light in front of it, it's not surprising that a proportion stop first and ask questions later.
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>>We've got this sort of junction set up all over Southport>>
Not noticed them at my end of town - are you sure you are not confusing this with the "cyclists only" red surfaced road area in front of the main stop line at traffic lights, intended to make it easier and safer for cyclists whilst the lights are on red?
Not that many of them use such areas over the course of any given 12 months.
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>>We've got this sort of junction set up all over Southport>> Not noticed them at my end of town - are you sure you are not confusing this with the "cyclists only" red surfaced road area in front of the main stop line at traffic lights intended to make it easier and safer for cyclists whilst the lights are on red?
That's a distinct possibility. Though the traffic lights at Eastbank Street/Bridge Street/Riding Street do have the type of junction layout alluded to by the OP and that's where I've seen people totally misunderstanding things.
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>>.. Though the traffic lights at Eastbank Street/Bridge Street/Riding Street..>>
That explains it. I avoid Eastbank Street like the plague as it's just traffic snarl ups and I rarely go into the actual town centre; if I do I go on the bus!
Promenade or Lord Street quicker for me car wise or perhaps Virginia Street and Shakespeare Street to where I usually need to go.
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Though the traffic lights at Eastbank Street/Bridge Street/Riding Street do have the type of junction layout alluded to by the OP and that's where I've seen people totally misunderstanding things. >>
I've just detoured down Eastbank Street out of curiosity.
The traffic lights at Eastbank Street/Bridge Street/Riding Street have the familiar red square for cyclists' use in front of each Stop line - there is no red marking on the pedestrian crossings' areas...:-)
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I am totally with Pugugly on this one and I think it is unfair to assume that everyone in your town is familiar with a junction that seems to suffer from bad signing and red lights that should be better positioned. Today I encountered an SUV stopped in the right hand lane almost straddling a junction into which he had emerged from my right across a give way. It is confusing because the Fosse Way on which he was travelling is a well-used cross country route but does not always have the priority that you expect when it crosses other roads of apparent equal status. As a result this particular slightly staggered junction outside Ettington in Warwickshire is a well-known local accident blackspot because the Fosse Way traffic expects to have priority. The registration plate on this SUV was German so I saw no point in beeping my horn or gesticulating at someone who was probably already embarrassed and flustered by their mistake. As Pugugly says the brain is filtering all sorts of messages and one way out of a state of confusion is to slam on the brakes. There is a one-way dualled road in Dover town centre where I always have to sit at the traffic lights and tell myself not to turn sharp right into the unsighted road to my right. Against logic when you do so from the right hand lane you are immediately confronted with two lanes of oncoming waiting traffic of which there is no warning. My brain, at least, expects a continuation of the one-way system but the correct exit route for right-turners is way over to the left of this oncoming traffic. Bad signage not necessarily bad driving may be the problem in Manchester.
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I suppose part of the problem is you go through the same junction everyday you will just assume its simple and easy.
I think the problem this this junction has had so many modifications in the past 30 years but I don't think its every being ripped out from scratch its too busy. The google pictures were taken very early in the morning.
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I know the junction because I used to live near there in 1990/91 and my test centre was near there.
It has changed a lot over the years. The Google photo shows evidence of how this was all a big box junction and some of the lines have been removed. But who's to say someone who knew it as it was doesn't think it's just worn away.
Poorly marked junction and they've tried to improve traffic management and made it more complicated instead of driver using their knowledge of the highway code and common sense to make it work.
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Still if you're just going straight on and you're going towards Fallowfield I cannot see what so confusing that makes people suddenly stop once they have crossed the junction which is what is happening.
I know the markings are very worn but that is far too simple thing for Manchester city council to spend money on.
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Didn't mean to make you feel bad Rattle !
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You made me feel bad, too PU. Sniff. Sob.
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Best solution is to consider every other driver a criminal idiot.
Then, when one of them behaves better than this, you can feel pleasantly surprised.
[Only half kidding.]
As for the junction you mention (isn't Google wonderful?), isn't the problem that the powers-that-be are constantly designing ever-more-complicated schemes but never think to explain how they work, as if they expect us to be constantly doing CPD to keep up with the changes?
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I'd like to add stupid bus drivers who stop on roundabouts to let their bus driver mates join the junction.
There's a risk of a rear end shunt from the car driver behind the stopping bus, and the driver in the lane next to the stopping bus risks hitting the one joining the roundabout.
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>>instead of clearing the junction they suddenly stop before the pedistrian crossing (even though the red man is still on and the lights still haven't changed).
I hope that you mean that the road the other side of the crossing is clear, and not expecting them to stop on the pedestrian crossing. Now that is something that makes me very cross.
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How many of these problems would be removed if the UK adopted the system, used in other European countries, of having a small, repeater, set of lights half way up the post you are waiting by, so as to avoid having to crane your neck to look at signals that are almost impossible to see whilst waiting at some of the lights?
This appears to be the reason an extra light is placed on the far side of the junction. So, having past the actual control set you still see a red light.
We all know of such junctions. One confusing one near me shows one as you are turning left and it does make the unsuspecting wonder if they have got it right. Crazy.
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Quite a few pedestrian crossing lights in my area feature these low level repeater sets of lights.
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>>Sooner or later this is going to cause a nasty accident because the driver behind won't expect somebody to suddenly stop in a junction.
This gets my comment of the week award
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The junction in the link doesn't look any different to many others. I can't see what the difficulty is.
The biggest problem we have in this country is the lack of awareness of what is going on around you and competence behind the wheel or PPD for short!
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