Yes WP, we use lorries in the fire brigade, but I can assure you they can't get up to 77 mph on a bend. The sloshing around of 300 gallons of water wouldn't help either. Fully laden with gear on a clear stretch of straight road we would be luckey to hit 65 mph.
I'm sure in the past you weren't meant to use vans for blue light shouts or panda cars for that matter. But it appears all your vehicles are all fitted with blues and twos, so are fare game shout wise.
I still maintain the height of these vans, means their centre of gravity make them more unstable at very high speeds, especially cornering.
Edited by spood on 03/10/2009 at 14:53
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While I feel sorry for the victims family, this guy has just stood trial and the jury are split.
It seems that the CPS arent that confident of a conviction otherwise why ask the family if they want him to stand trial again?
Luckily, I have never been in the position of the family.
Why spend more money on another trial, probably with the same outcome?
Apologies to the Mods, can they move this up please? I thought I had responded to a message further up the board. Thanks
Sorted - thread split. You had replied in the right place. You'd have seen that if viewed threaded but it did look wrong. Rob
Edited by rtj70 on 03/10/2009 at 17:07
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"In the statement, he said he put on the van?s flashing lights and drove over the bridge, where his vehicle?s rocking ?took me completely by surprise?.
?I have never felt this in any vehicle before,? he said.
?The vehicle became unstable, and I genuinely thought it was going to physically tip over.?
Backs up my point that a high sided vehicle should not be used at high speeds negotiating a bend or even weaving in and out of traffic.
As to a second trial. Yes it could be a waste of time and money. Having served during two jury services I felt that in some cases the prosecution had not adequately proved guilt which in such cases in England means you have to find them NOT guilty even though there are doubts to their innocence. Sometimes the evidence is just too weak. I think in cases like this the English judicial system should adopt the Scottish verdict of not proven. Then the person is released, not cleared if doubt is present. In this case this would have been an appropriate verdict. If the case is not taken further he should be asked to resign, or if he is too arrogant to fall on his sword, then he should face the sack.
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Why should he be asked to resign or be sacked if not convicted?
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sadly for me this just makes a mockery of the so called british justice system
the side that can afford the most expensive legal team just about always wins regardless of the merits
in cases like this the coppers usually have their defence funded by the police federation who throw lots of money at a legal team to defend the copper
the system stinks, and the sooner its sorted out so that money has less influence on outcome the better
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''the side that can afford the most expensive legal team just about always wins regardless of the merits''
Got any facts to support that?? or just another completely unfounded pub view unloaded on here??
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So let's get this straight. The chap is employed as a public servant. His employer gives him a van to drive for the night, with the expectation that if called upon he'll use it on emergency calls. He does so. No doubt due to the unsuitability of that vehicle at speed, possibly limited training and combined with no doubt an error of judgement, an awful accident/collision occurs...... and for that he should be sacked, imprisoned etc?
My heart goes out to the family of the poor girl who was killed. Hanging, drawing and quartering the police van driver in this case, does not solve the bigger issue.
i.e. is driver training sufficient for vans; should vans be used at speed; are they specially adapted enough for high speed work (suspension/brakes); was a more suitable van a more worthy purchase option for that force, even if more expensive; could they make do with a van with a lower centre of gravity (Transit Connect versus Transit); etc
When i first drove a police van at speed i was horrified at the length of time it took me to stop the thing...then there was the lifting of the wheel(s) when going around corners at speed, most unnerving.
It's glaringly obvious to me what's happened in this case, he's gone too fast over a bump, got it unstable and then can't do anything with it to slow it down and stabilise it to get it around a corner.
....and i'm not saying he should be absolved of all responsibility either.
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Some Forces are looking at Transit Connects as response " cars"
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Some Forces are looking at Transit Connects as response " cars"
I was asked for my opinion on our lot swapping Astras for Zafiras....(thought it was a totally ridiculous idea...more difficult to get through width restrictions, higher centre of gravity, less performance, cost more)....the idea was shelved fortunately
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I was asked for my opinion on our lot swapping Astras for Zafiras
How would a Zafira really be more useful than an Astra estate I wonder. The rear two seats are not very practical for adults are they! And you couldn't use them to transport 7 officers with body armour - you'd never get in/out of the rear seats ;-)
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Astra/Zafira, wouldn't have thought there'd be a great difference in COG, they're both Astra's underneath, the weight of the higher body wouldn't i have thought have made much of a difference....similar to how far a double decker bus can tilt before overturning.
I know from driving higher vehicles just how much easier it is to make progress in traffic, wouldn't the extra height of the Zafira be an advantage when in packed traffic the driver would have a slightly better field of vision for deciding the best route through pronto?
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no winners
i know that bridge
ive had lots of near misses on it non of them my fault
im pleased to see the cps have spoken to the family
its basically wrong place wrong time
i would like to see speed limiters on commercial vehicles in what are black marias though
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Some Forces are looking at Transit Connects as response " cars"
As well as full size Transits, Northumbria make a lot of use of Transit Connects seemingly as response "cars". To be fair, I gather that a Transit Connect drives pretty well, their COG can't be far out from that of a Focus, and not many mainstream manufacturers know how to make a car or van handle better than Ford.
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Oh and to add to that, my guess on the reason that there are now lots more of these Connects in use is simple, a couple of years ago a Northumbria officer was killed when a handcuffed prisoner in the back of a Focus grabbed the handbrake and caused the car to overturn.
No risk of that happening when he's in a cage in the back of the Transit. Although regs at the time apparently advised against prisoner transport in the back of a car they probably wouldn't have had anything like the number of vans to use with cages and hence, people took shortcuts, costly ones.
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"The officer, 28, was interviewed after Miss Welsh died of multiple injuries, but refused to answer some questions on the advice of his solicitor."
Something to hide?
"Why should he be asked to resign or be sacked if not convicted?"
As an gallant option to not having to go through the misery on behalf of the family and a costly retrial. He should have known his limitations.
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a gallant option doesn't pay your mortgage though, does it.....and could mean wholly innocent people might suffer (Wife/kids/other dependants)
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The 'black box' recorded the van doing 94mph an hour before crash, which gave the impression of an officer who liked to press on.
The officer said he usually drove a Transit which he preferred because they are quicker and handle better.
Cleveland Police fit the Vivaros with an in-gear rev limiter which prevents drivers thrashing through the gears, but has no impact on top speed.
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"a gallant option doesn't pay your mortgage though, does it....."
No, but it should be the minimum redress for causing someone's death.
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Edited by b308 on 04/10/2009 at 11:38
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I also know this road well and use it most days. The bump in question is one of those where a bridge joins the road again, and it does give quite a jolt. I can easily imagine a van travelling at speed would become unstable.
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...I also know this road well and use it most days...
As did the policeman driving the van.
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/8418921.stm
after the second trial a finding of NG, with a 5 hour wait for the jury to return their verdict
will still have internal discipline to worry about, which can end in the sack
what a sad case, no winners here
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It's the same in my work. You can be found not guilty of a offence in law, but you then have to content with discipline regulations. A form of "kangaroo court".
What charge under your regs. WP would they throw at him?
If the Federation feel the chances are he might get the sack over it, it might be better to resign to save what pension he has already accrued
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the copper will have had a very expensive legal team paid for by the police federation
the copper will probably have had his mates in the advanced driving fraternity gather round and say it was safe to go round at that speed
ordinary folk wouldnt have these advantages
and its sad to say that in this country he who can afford the more expensive legal team almost always wins, we dont really have a justice system we have a who has more money system
so whatever the merits of this case i am satisfied from my own first hand experience that justice will not be done and it will simply be a case of whichever side has the more expensive legal team winning, and a split jury will probably be a win for the copper in this case
if it were me i would be changing the rules so that there is some equity between folk with different wallet sizes
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Federation is the equivalent of an Union - don't tell me that Unison wouldn't defend an Ambulance driver with an equally expensive (probably the same ones !) team. Duplicate for all other emergency services.
What escapes people that rant like this is that the Police/CPS would do everything they can to convict a Police Officer in these circumstances where other members of the public would have 'got away" with very early on. Get real.
Edited by Pugugly on 18/12/2009 at 12:24
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pug
yes some unions would defend their staff, but few as much as the pol fed
until recently no police had ever been locked up for killing someone on the roads, despite frequent deaths caused by police action (i dont actually blame the individual copper for all of this, its also the poor training etc)
Police do everything they can to avoid prosecuting their own, you are in fantasy land, as anyone who has been in the passenger seat of a car driven by a copper stopped by other traffic police will tell you
CPS maybe more neutral but lots happens to a case before it ever gets to them
I've been in court about a dozen times, and every single time the side with the more expensive lawyers won
You as a lawyer probably find it uncomfortable to admit but the so called justice system is a joke
I dont regard it as a rant, just realistic assesment of the realities
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Police do everything they can to avoid prosecuting their own you are in fantasy land
That is absolutely NOT accurate. One of mine currently has a WDC hanging over his head as a result of a recommendation by a supervisor. 18 months before that another pleaded Guilty to a WDC. The people that deal with police accidents i.e. Traffic officers, are usually exceptionally professional indeed...plus... all the cars nowadays have IDR's in them (Incident Data Recorders), which can be monitored via a plug in to a laptop after an accident....and MDT (Mobile Data Treminal) which can be monitored remotely from a control room and for example a snail trail done for the past 24 hours.
By the very nature of the job, you're bound to be put in situations of risk, it's unavoidable. How many people would dream of doing red lights or going the wrong side of Keep Left bollards etc in their own cars..or be expected to by their employer, then cop the points (or worse) on their own licences if it all goes horribly wrong, there's long been mutterings about having an Emergency Services Licence, to protect your own one, but can't see it happening as the worry would be people letting their guard down.
I don't know where PU gets his info from...but it's pretty 'on the ball'.
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come on westpig you telling me that the evidence in front of my own eyes is wrong?
i have great friends as coppers, and have great respect for them and the tough job they do
but they are certainly no angels
yes maybe in extreme a supervisor will take action, routine practise for day to day matters is rather different
i agree with much of the other stuff you say, but that for me just means the training should be significantly ramped up to compensate
emergency service licence i dont think i would support, i think positive as well as negative points on someones licence would be a better idea, then coppers could have so many + points for their good deeds, and the same could apply for everyone else too
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The test is would a member of the public been treated differently?
I reckon if I was doing 77mph in a van, in wet conditions, in the dark, in a 40mph limit, with temporary roadworks, and killed someone, I would have been charged with death by dangerous driving, not careless.
But even that is a double-edged sword, because the police officer might think it was easier - not so much courage needed - for a jury to convict on the lesser charge.
Two juries in this case were clearly not prepared to convict a copper for driving very quickly to a genuine emergency.
Edited by ifithelps on 18/12/2009 at 19:04
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