I ask this as I had a conversation with one of my chemicals suppliers who told me that they were asked if they could replicate a solution that they were sold as traffic film remover ( used as a general pre-wash by most drive-through car washes ).
This car wash place that made the request had been getting this stuff at 60p a litre whereas normal TFL is atleast £1 a litre if bought in bulk. The pre-wash that I use works out at £2.80 a litre for comparison but mine is non-caustic, kind to animals etc etc.
Anyhow, this solution was sent off to head office to decipher what it was that they got so cheaply. Turns out it was caustic soda and water.
Now I dont know about anyone else, but I think that is just a little bit scary and yes they are still using it and apparently, several other of these car wash outlets in my area use the same supplier. Obviously not gonna name them, but I did think it was worth passing on a bit of insider news id heard as I thought it was quite shocking!
Even worse, apparently they use some acid for cleaning bricks on car wheels!! Its priceless stuff it really is. Im so glad I didnt relent today and use the one I was thinking of using as it was one of them, so I had to do the msises car myself :-( teach me for being lazy that.
|
Depends entirely on how dilute it is - if it's very dilute it'll be good for removing oil based smears. If it's concentrated it'll eat yer paint.
|
Its very common to use Caustic TFM, its a quick way of washing down the outside (and inside!) of cars and vans. Then either use water and sponge or cheapo shampoo or sometimes its just PWed off.
Valet Pro do a range of pre washes, the one I use in trade bulk is Orange Pre Wash which uses citrus to break down oil and grime and does not strip wax. Its a lower foaming solution and is kinder to plastics. How often have you seen a car with white or grey plastic trim rather than black?
Jim
|
|
People don't seem bothered these days Stu, most seem to only be bothered about the price and never give a thought to what may be being used on their cars.
But then it appears from these threads that cars are now just white goods, and when it looks shabby or breaks down it gets replaced with another.
I imagine your business will continue to prosper with regular maybe slightly old fashioned motorist custom, the dodgy chemical brigade will prosper with the disposable white goods fraternity....you'll see the difference driving down the road in a few years, the oppositions bleached cars will have that lovely military grade matt and missing finish..;)
|
|
|
I think most traffic film remover is caustic based. Certainly the stuff I use on my car and bikes is (1990 mx5 and 10 year old R1 and SLR650). Hasn't caused a problem yet and certainly shifts the oil muck easily. Just remember to rinse off well with a hose afterwards.
Likewise most of the wheel cleaners use dilute hydrochloric acid (or is it phosphoric) - certainly the "well known one". It starts frothing on the concrete drive if I spill it.
|
My supplier wasnt impressed with this as it was essentially stuff mixed in someones shed. I understand if one uses a professionally formulated solution, but home made tfl? Seems a stretch too far for me, especially since ive not yet met a job that required anything stronger than my non-caustic products.
My acid wheel cleaner uses hydrofluoric acid, not hydrochloric. Still hurts if you leave it on your skin for a length of time though.
|
My acid wheel cleaner uses hydrofluoric acid,
Stu
Just watch what you do with that stuff and do not get it on your skin - Highly toxic.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid
|
HF could do greater damage than hurting your skin. www.carwash.com/article.asp?IndexID=4230101
A cautionary tale on the effects of misuse of HF acid: www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/144_11202.htm
|
|
I know all about it chap dont you worry, as in my younger days, I spilt the wheel cleaner neat on my trainer ( thought it was water so left it ) and it soaked in and after about two hours it hurt like hell and my foot was all red and blotchy. It was a week before I could wear a shoe again!
It is the active ingredient in the wheel cleaner but it is by no means the only one so its not used neat by any means. Also you dilute the product with water, 20% cleaner, 80% water.
Its actually quite mild when diluted and doesnt really cause any irritation if it splashes on your arm, although I tend to wipe it off with babywipes if anything more than a speck does hit the skin, just to be safe.
The only proviso actually is not to use it on a car which has just been driven as it can give off a vapour when in contact with hot wheels which is not good for the lungs, but it comes with a safety sheet and ive been using it now for 12 years, so Im well versed in how to handle it.
Used correctly, its very effective although not needed often as non-acid products that I normall use are pretty effective on even quite dirty wheels.
|
Just read both articles thanks for the links. Definately worth avoiding the fumes although the stuff I use has never so much as marked my skin so it must be quite a small amount of the overall chemical.
I may well consider using their enviromentally friendly version in the future though.
I only use it every couple of weeks, its not frequently required and as a long term user I dont want to take any more risks than I have to.
|
Ok, just checked the label. In the wheel cleaner that I use, Hydroflouric acid is 5.4% of the chemical, so 5.4% of the 20% that I dilute with water.
|
Would just like to re-iterate other advice to any reader about Hydrofluoric acid. It is not a strong acid (from a pH perspective, so doesn't create acid burns as quickly as sulphuric or hydrochloric acid), but the fluoride ion is pretty reactive (nucleophilic if you want the technical term - I did chemistry).
I understand that the fluoride goes after calcium ions, which are used by the body in neuro-transmission - never been there but I understand this causes excruciating pain, and a chemical lab using this would have special gel-packs available to treat burns.
Also, HF etches glass - I worked for a company that did this to manufacture scientific glass products, and so if you manage to spill some onto windows somehow, then wash off with copious water - ditto for any spillages to the skin - dilution is a good response to 99+% of chemical spills.
|
That is something that has bothered me for a while and I did make a post about hand car washes in that you have no control of the products used !!
I know alloy wheel cleaners have some caustic element in the cleaner and needs to left on a short time and then washed off !! I used Meguiars Hot Rims All Wheel Cleaner and it seems to be quite gentle compared with some products and did a good job .
I presume Stuart is talking about snow foam !! what would posters recommend which one to use ????
Edited by cuthbert on 08/09/2009 at 10:05
|
|
|
|
|
On our packet of soda crystals it says .......... Do not use in contact with aluminium. Avoid varnished and lacquered surfaces.
|
|
This is worrying even if fairly dilluted. I'm glad I only ever wash my car myself !
I have always known that alloy wheel wash (at least the stuff that works) contains Hydroflouric Acid which is as you say the same as brick-acid.
The moral of the story is that if you want something which cleans easily without much elbow grease, you have to use violent chemicals.
Edited by Roly93 on 08/09/2009 at 10:34
|
Hydrofluoric Acid is also present after some types of rubber have been burnt (bonfires, burned out cars etc...), I wouldn't touch anything with it in.
|
|
Caustic Soda (NaOH) is the key ingredient in the manufacture of REAL soap from animal fats and vegetable oils.
The process is called "saponification" and is exothermic- I know THAT from bitter experience!
So if you spill concentrated caustic soda on your skin, you will start to turn to soap!
[I used to, many, many, years ago, work in a traditional soap factory, which utilised very large open vessels, heated by live steam coils, to carry out the soap making process from beef tallow (best white toilet soap) to benzine extracted bone grease (brown bar soap for export to Africa!)]
Rusty stains on one's hands from cast iron valves etc. were removed by a very quick wash with HCl, followed by rinsing with water - worked well!
No Elf & Safety back then!
Edited by malteser on 08/09/2009 at 10:48
|
This has just caused me to check out the Hazard sheet for my Bilberry Wheel Cleaner, I'm pleased to see that it is merely declared an irritant which doesn't sound like it would easily kill you!
Will probably wear gloves from now on though. The only horror story that I've heard of recently was someone who accidentally inhaled a mist of Tardis (a tar removal chemical) apparently it resulted in a call from the air ambulance!
|
Who gives a stuff about what the car is washed with. It's only a car for goodness' sake.
However, if you ever come near my property with hydrofluoric acid don't expect to be invited back. It is phenomenally dangerous. I shared a lab with somebody who used it and the precautions they used to take were extreme. Fume cupboards, gloves etc. etc.
From wikipedia "However, because it is absorbed, medical treatment is necessary;[8] rinsing off is not enough. In some cases, amputation may be required."
|
|
>>I've heard of recently was someone who accidentally inhaled a mist of Tardis (a tar removal chemical) apparently it resulted in a call from the air ambulance!<<
Ah I know that stuff well. Of course one shouldnt be breathing it in, but if you do, it sure does make you feel light-headed. Guy I used to work with made the mistake of using it without opening the worskshop door - he had to sit down for an hour. I think it is this level of carelessness that shortens the working life of quite a few valeters and perhaps their actual life expectancy.
Most things are safe if you use them in the correct manner, following the safety guidelines but the guidelines dont make for efficient working practices hence corners get cut.
As for using Hydroflouric acid, it is a component part of many stronger wheel cleaners but makes up a very small percentage of the overall chemical and I think you will find it is widspread in its use in the valeting industry, especially by quick wash outfits because it is quite cheap and it gives quick results. I would doubt many have ever read the safety instructions for the chemicals they use. Even at the main dealership I used to work at, there was no emphasis on safety whatsoever regarding the chemicals used and we received no formal training in how to use anything, we just learnt on the job.
|
I have been researching a friendlier alternative to the stuff I currently use for cleaning wheels. It seems the low hazard cleaners all use Hydrochloric acid instead and the safety sheets for them seem alot less ' you gonna die'. Im going to pay a visit to my supplier tomorrow and see if I can try some of the low-hazard stuff. I never thought of Hydrochloric acid as low-hazard though, maybe Im wrong, Im no chemist!
|
Caustic soda is beastly stuff that melts the skin off your fingers. I sometimes put it cautiously down blocked drains where it can work wonders.
|
Hydrofluoric acid.
Just read the first few pages of any recent Haynes manual (I was at Sparkford today).
I think it's been well discussed here before - limb amputation included.
|
It's easy to get mixed up between hydrochloric and hydrofluoric - the symptoms are vastly different though. Even well diluted the latter is nasty, bone eating stuff.
A bit like the China Syndrome, but though limbs.
Edited by martint123 on 10/09/2009 at 16:46
|
|
|
|
|
|