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If you happen to be apprehended by the cops in one of these shows do you have any right to refuse use of footage containing identifying images of you?
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IMHO the BIB are saints. The patience they show to many of the idiots they have to deal with deserves a medal.
FTF
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Well at least when they are the tele!
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BBC ... often portrays us in a bad light
that particular Officer still smarts nearly two years later.
Unlike some others I have had a number of conversations, some of them 'professional', with the BiB over the years, although I don't think I am what is known as 'known'.
Some have been utter screamers but most have been reasonably well-conducted and a few thoroughly sympathetic and human. They are like other people because that's who they are: other people. I don't like the way large events are policed these days but that is increasingly done by fly-by-wire, remote control methods, a big mistake I think in their present form (as the de Menezes family can confirm).
Inexperienced citizens are often affronted by the abrasive way coppers can behave. But a moment's reflection tells one that it is hardly surprising if they expect confrontation and rudeness, people being the way they are now. Coppers were politer to respectable citizens in the old clip-round-the-ear days. Now they are in a quagmire of silly regulations to protect dodgy citizens and cheeky whippersnappers from having their rights abused. Hardly surprising if it brings out the curmudgeon in some of them.
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Unfortunately the BBC will crop a 30 minute incident into 2 minutes and it often portrays us in a bad light.
Exactly the same happened when there was a vogue for learner driver programmes. A camera was set up in an instructors car for about twenty hours of lessons and the TV producer would pick out a heavily edited five minutes designed to make both instructor and pupil look like a pair of incompatent clods.
Wouldn't have touched with a barge pole.
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Not all our fearless enforcers of the law are camera shy.
I've seen many a detective turn up on the last day of show trial in a new suit and shiny shoes, ready for his time in front of the cameras.
Not so vain are the young uniformed officers who quite like their photograph in the local paper while doing crime scene preservation 'because me mum will be chuffed'.
Policemen, like any other sector of society, have varying attitudes to media participation.
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how did he manage to get the back window open? i thought they disabled the mechanism?
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Midlifecrisis,
Can you tell us what we are supposed to be looking for please?
Watching it now!
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Horrific, I don't think it takes much imagination to realise the cause of death.
Understandable why the carriageway was closed for a while.
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Some of the new batch of "stars" seem a bit exitable in a chase situation.
Edited by Old Navy on 25/08/2009 at 23:13
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I have never seen such rubbish in a long time, do police men get taught how to be boring?
Also what is it with the "deputy dog" lookalike? its an embarrasing image to portray on TV of a proffesional on duty. Do police officers not have fitness standards to maintain? It would be a discrace if many of them would have to pursuit on foot as appose to in their Volvo!
Am i alone in thinking the police force need to seriously look at the state of some of their officers and get them working out / dieting?
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Can you tell us what we are supposed to be looking for please?
My interest was in the fatal.
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MLC - May I ask what you thought of their portrayal?
Also, when they say "Investigations are ongoing" at the end of these shows, do they mean that or are they really saying that they've drawn a blank? I appreciate that you may not be able to answer that!
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which part of it?
to me it looks like the corsa went under the back of the trailer and then the camper hit the trailer. looked nasty. i can't work out why the artic jacked, traffic mabey.
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If I had my way, they'd never be there in the first place. They at least made an effort to deal with it sympathetically.
I can't make any comment at all about the investigation.
(Thought the rest of the programme was a bit dull)
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In a way I think it's good that the public see exactly what is going on at the scene of a fatal accident, may stop some (but no doubt not all) of the moaners who twist about the inconvienience to them.
I think doing the brief interview with the poor lad's mother put a human face on the tragedy and puts the delay experienced by the other motorists into perspective.
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Portrayl......to be honest i thought i was embarrasing for the police man involved, he couldnt even fasten his seatbelt without it digging into his face / chins.
He is a walking heart attack, how can he honestly be expected to be a role model for the following generations?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 26/08/2009 at 01:40
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If it makes you feel better (and to save you posting any more insults), he's retired now!
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I have several retired motorway cops friends and the individual response to the question of how they deal personally with the later effects after dealing with fatal accidents is that they tend to shut it out of their mind.
But they also eventually admit that it does/did affect them to some extent in the long run.
My guess is that they don't really let on just how much.
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mabey that is why you don't see healthy, fit and lively ex traffic coppers. they all have to find a way of coping with the awfull scenes they have to see. if anyone says it would be easy to deal with they are lying. fair play to all of them, i wouldn't and couldn't deal with it.
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>>.. you don't see healthy, fit and lively ex traffic coppers...>>
Well at least two of them are still healthy, fit and lively...:-)
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not quite what i meant. the job looks like it has drained the life out of some of them. what can you expect when they have to see those horrors.
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The sequence with the van chase was vintage Keystone Cops! Couldn't believe they let it out of the dead-end, and what was the point of blocking only one lane on the roundabout approach?
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Yeah they said something about not allowing to block and must allow a way out?
Did it contravene civil liberties or something?
Bring in the P.I.T. manoeuvre I say!!
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>>Bring in the P.I.T. manoeuvre I say!!>>
I would agree, but in general we don't have the wide roads or, more likely, the possibility of putting others' lives ore at risk than in the States.
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I thinks police are instructed not damage their cars.
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watched the episode tonight.
Just shows how much carp the police have to put up with.
Then the next job could be a pile up on the motorway.
Generally I think some BiB must have the patience of a saint.
Fancy not even strapping kids in (I would have lost my rag as well).
Then to find out the female driver was already disqualified just beggars belief.
The jack knifed lorry incident wasn't nice to see either but it is real life and if it wasn't for the emergency services then who would have to deal with it (piece together what went on, identify the deceased etc).
all in all a good episode and for once not a repeat for the umpteenth time.
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I have just watched it on Iplayer now. Watching this I know I could never be a copper having to deal with that crap.
It also shows why I really hate motorways and I support all sorts of schemes to try and get as much HGVs of the road as possible.
The guy in the Rover really annoyed me but I think some of his bad driving my have been due to panic of the entire situation.
We just have to be as careful as possible but remember that road deaths are extremely rare and as much as it is a horrible job for the police doctors must have to give this sort of bad news all the time for much more common things like cancer which about in 2.7 of us will get in our life time.
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The fatal was a combination of a number of factors, but having no lights on the motorway was probably a major contributory factor.
I can't believe we still have large sections in urban areas with no lighting.
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Quite frankly, I dont recall any cop show following the British Police putting them in a bad light really. Bit of unneccessary swearing ( which ive seen members of the public arrested for! ) but aside from that, it gives me confidence that the majority are doing the job the best way they can.
The American versions actually put our Police is a somewhat better light as they can be quite shocking in their dealing with the public.
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I think that element of 'balance' was missing. HJ >>
My thoughts exactly.
I have said so before, and repeat: No other country does what the British Police do regarding closures of M-ways. Not USA, not Germany, not France, not Japan, not Australia, not ..... a single other country.
There ought to be statistics published showing how such closures there are every year, what the cost to the economy was, and what was achieved at the end of the "investigation". Then we can judge whether these measures are in fact proportionate in any way at all.
p.s. as for the driver of the Rover with the kids in the back, he should have been charged with dangerous driving the way he pulled out on the M-Way. the evidence was on camera. It was sheer luck that one of the heavily braking HGVs behind did which was clearly seen slewing across on to the middle lane, did not slew on to the hard shoulder taking the Police patrol car with it.
Edited by jbif on 26/08/2009 at 09:49
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I was also bemused by them rushing to the fatal, in the dark, at in excess of 140MPH when other units where already on scene.
I think in all the accidents featured, everyone else seemed to arrive before the Police - it's particularly amazing the the Fire Brigade can get from their off motorway stations to these incidents before the Police do.
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Didn't he say they were 50 miles from it BP? I assume that they had some specialist skills that the police already there didn't... accident investigation, perhaps?
Rattle, re that guy in the Rover, you'd be surprised how many people do that from the hard shoulder (and slip roads), they do not use it correctly... to build up speed and then merge with the other traffic at their speed... you need also to remember that our safest roads are motorways, so its nothing to be afraid of!
Overall I thought they came out well from it, dealing with the deaths side of things I suspect is an individual thing, some will be able to deal with it with no outward signs, others will struggle, I see the same with train drivers.
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Bill Payer - I was also bemused by them rushing to the fatal, in the dark, at in excess of 140MPH when other units where already on scene.
I think in all the accidents featured, everyone else seemed to arrive before the Police - it's particularly amazing the the Fire Brigade can get from their off motorway stations to these incidents before the Police do.
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My thought too
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b308 - Didn't he say they were 50 miles from it BP? I assume that they had some specialist skills that the police already there didn't... accident investigation, perhaps?
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The police in this country do not really start doing accident investigation until the scene is handed to them by the fire officer in charge. With other emergency vehicles including police cars who according to the program had already started the investigation was it really such an emergency that the officer had to do 140mph?
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HJ-You're sounding a bit like a stuck record. The road didn't reopen until the morning due to the difficulties of removing the HGV. It required specialist equipment which we don't have in our backpocket.
The Fire Brigade/Ambulance don't have to pro-actively patrol. This means they are often best placed to get to a scene first because of where they are positioned. I had to travel a significant distance to get to that RTC. However, I would estimate they arrive before us in around 20% of motorway incidents. I've been alone at a triple fatal with other serious injuries for 15 minutes.
As for drivers pulling straight off the hard shoulder into traffic. That certainly isn't an isolated incident. It never ceases to amaze me that despite telling them in detail how to rejoin safely, it just doesn't go in!!
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>> As for drivers pulling straight off the hard shoulder into traffic. That certainly isn't an isolated incident. It never ceases to amaze me that despite telling them in detail how to rejoin safely it just doesn't go in!!
I think that the driver of the Rover simply didn't understand what was being said to him.
It does make you wonder how he managed to understand his driving test examiner and pass his test...................
: - I
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>>.. but remember that road deaths are extremely rare..>>
The fatalities total on UK roads last year was 2538, the lowest figure since records commenced.
I would hardly describe the situation as "extremely rare", although in view of our crowded roads the drop, backed up by various road safety campaigns, is an achievement.
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re "how he managed to understand his driving test examiner and pass his test"
he probably passed his test in another language in another country and swapped his licence for a UK one, or was driving on a foreign licence
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Regardless of the driver's background and origins of his licence, common sense is an universal concept (and also exclusive in the same proportion across all creeds and races).
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Regardless of the driver's background and origins of his licence common sense is an universal concept (and also exclusive in the same proportion across all creeds and races).
Common sense is boosted by expeience, for all we know he may be new to this country, as many are, and the fastest thing where he comes from is the local tractor on a dirt road. Likewise he may just be a poor driver, I think he should have been charged for that performance. Just a remote chance the court would order an extended driving test.
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Old Navy, I think at one point, while in the HGV park, the policeman says that the Rover driver has had 15 years experience - look at about 36/37 minutes into the film. Quite long enough to know children should be strapped in and how to negotiate a sliproad/hard shoulder.
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I stand corrected, even more reason to charge him.
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There is a little industry that impersonates during the test, in return for a fee. In view of the chap with no apparent comprehension of English, Mway driving, or traffic law re passengers, he should have been charged. Maybe the court could have required the driver to take a test, if they have such powers? That at least would have been constructive.
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There is no requirement to be able to speak or understand English to take a driving test.
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There is no requirement to be able to speak or understand English to take a driving test.
But presumably your chances of passing aren't high if you can't understand what the instructor tells you to do during the test?
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You can have a translator in the car with you.
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If you can't speak or understand English you are required to have an interpreter accompany you on the test.
Very common in some areas, I never agreed with it as such people cannot then understand road signs.
Edited by Robin Reliant on 26/08/2009 at 11:47
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I never agreed with it as such people cannot then understand road signs.
I agree to a point, but then does that imply we should have a language test before driving abroad?
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Is it possible for him to fail the driver improvement course he was sent on?
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The road didn't reopen until the morning due to the difficulties of removing the HGV. It required specialist equipment which we don't have in our backpocket.
If the country lacks the equipment to clear one of its essential arteries for hours on end then that is yet another fault of the country, not of the police.
But it doesn't does it, thats just a lame excuse to deflect the blame of the road closure onto someone else. As you well know every police force across the country has a Vehicle Recovery Scheme of some description and the recovery operator who did that job would have had somewhere between 30 & 60 minutes to be on scene with that incident from the time that they were requested to attend. That wasn't a big job, that was a simple straight forward jacknifed vehicle still on the carriageway and I dare say that from the recovery operator starting their work that truck would have been straightened up, picked up and being towed away in around one hours time. Even more so if it was the same recovery operator who took the truck away that towed the car & camper in, they are a big well established firm and that job would have been very basic and simple for them.
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Simon - can you tell us what the truck was carrying?
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Simon- as well as any possible load. Could you describe the on call system for heavy lifting equipment (as opposed to the Transit flatbed with a winch that's used to recover cars under the Police scheme)
Could you describe what damage the HGV may have suffered to the batteries/braking system/ hydraulics etc etc! I'm assuming you can, because you obviously formed an expert opinion from the brief shot of the trailers rear on the TV last night.
As the saying goes ........'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'
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My comment of road deaths being rare is that the population of the UK is around 61 million when you consider that massive number it makes 2500 seem very small. The chance of it happeing is very slim but that is no comfort for people that have lost loved ones or friends due to an ancident. Also I am sure there is probably a much higher number of people still living but suffered serious brain injuries etc in a crash.
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Of the road deaths, 1257 were in cars so, yes, statistically when you look at the chances of dying from all other manner of things the probability of meeting your maker in a car accident is indeed very low. Not a big consolation if you're one of the 1257 though.
By comparison, 572 pedestrians were killed and 493 motorcyclists.
Perhaps more important, 10711 motorsists (car) were seriously injured.
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Could you describe the on call system for heavy lifting equipment (as opposed to the Transit flatbed with a winch that's used to recover cars under the Police scheme) >>
Is the point being made that the police don't have such a system?
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Whenever this topic arises the usual comments come out almost on a loop banging on about motorway or road closures following RTA/C/Is and the cons why.
If an incident demands the attendance of all 3 services then the section of motorway or road is closed primarily to protect the people working there and those involved. It might be to do with the numbers of vehicles involved or the cargo being carried. As has been said by MLC, certain specialist vehicles are not immediately at hand, and they have to get there through stationary or grid locked roads surrounding the incident, hence their delay.
As a fire officer in charge at the scene, I am responsible at that scene for everyones health and safety. Now if a lane were to be opened too soon past a scene or allowed to remain open that could possibly kill or injure a service worker(police/fire/ambulance/recovery/HA) it would be on MY head, NOT yours.
Many collisions also deteriorate the road surface with spilt oil,petrol,hydraulics, chemicals or scuffed by metal contact which might mean resurfacing, so you continue to have a smooth journey later on. Barriers and street furniture are favourites that succum to such incidents. These too need amending. So there is a lot that CAN shut a road or motorway, not just the fatals that the moaners seem to concentrate on.
At any incident as officer in charge of rescue, I am well aware of the consequences of having a road closed and I am under pressure, usually from the BIB, to get the road open ASAP. As soon as we are finished, ambulances are away, I get our trucks away to allow the partial opening if possible, though as stated, certain situations warrant a complete closure, whether for investigation or maintainence.
I'm sure this post won't appease any of the armchair critics, who can't see any logic in these procedures, but hey, non of us are perfect.
Edited by spood on 26/08/2009 at 13:21
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Is it time to maybe look at better options of diversions then in cases like this?
As soon as it is obvious that road will be closed for a good while, reduce opposite carriageway to two lanes, open up a barrier and let the vehicles through that way.
Now although that may sound a lot of work, I regularly see a team on one lorry able to put up roadworks signs etc and close a motorway down to two lanes within minutes. OK the cross barrier may be an issue to start with but if these became norm then they could be built in at regular intervals at construction stage similar to emergency phone boxes etc.
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I'm sure this post won't appease any of the armchair critics >>
Everything said by spood is fair comment but for the extract above. Because you aren't actually physically involved in something, doesn't mean you can't have an opinion.
Otherwise spood couldn't coment on politics, or football or the weather forecast or whatever he's not actually physically involved in.
It was transparently obvious that there was nothing to be done but to close the road following the truck jack-knife on the programme last night. As the man says it's making sure that closure is appropriate and that the road is opened again asap.
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Why then are roads on the continent, apparently, opened so much more quickly after such a serious accident.
This in no way criticises our services because I understand such incidents have to be fully investigated.
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.. road is closed primarily to protect the people working there and those involved ..
Many collisions also deteriorate the road surface with spilt oil,petrol,hydraulics, chemicals or scuffed by metal contact which might mean resurfacing, so you continue to have a smooth journey later .... etc. ec. ....
I'm sure this post won't appease any of the armchair critics, who can't see any logic in these procedures, but hey, non of us are perfect. >>
spood:
Can you explain why Britain is unique in the whole world in this matter then?
Are you suggesting that in the rest of the world, their roads and vehicles are built such that the debris and damage and the protection and safety of the 3 services can be ignored?
Or are you admitting that "the road is closed primarily to protect the people working there and those involved" because the legendary elfandsafety is the real culprit here in the UK?
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>>..of road deaths being rare is that the population of the UK is around 61 million..>>
Yes, but the actual number of drivers is around half that figure...:-)
I still don't consider it to be "rare" - one is one too many, never mind an average of more than 40 a week.
Edited by Stuartli on 26/08/2009 at 15:22
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Could you describe the on call system for heavy lifting equipment... Could you describe what damage the HGV may have suffered to... As the saying goes ........'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'
Yes I could, I've been in this industry for around 13 years and do heavy recovery day in day out, currently for three different counties police forces so this I have rather a lot of this 'little knowledge' that you talk about.
Just from seeing the TV program last night I can tell you that the lorry in question was a newish DAF 85 4x2 with a Hill Hire tri axle trailer behind it. It had had a hard jacknife round but nothing major. By the stance of the trailer, the way it was sitting nice and square and the fact that there were no bulges in the curtain would lead me to say that there was probably little or no load in the trailer and if there was it certainly hadn't moved far. The back door was smashed in,the rear lights were probably smashed too along with the under run bar and other than the tractor units cab damage, probably not a lot else. Easy job, winch it straight, front suspend it, wind off the the brakes, remove the prop, make the loose bits safe and off you go.
Tell me I'm wrong...???
...implies that the police did not want to pay for the equipment to arrive and be standing while they completed their examination.
Honestjohn, the fee is fixed so it doesn't matter if the recovery operator is on scene for 30 minutes or six hours - they can only charge the same amount. Hence there is no incentive to string jobs out, just to get them done as quick and efficiently as possible.
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from JBIF....
... posting any more insults .... >>
In case 5552budd thinks anyone is anonymous on here:
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jun/16/nightjack-blo...n
www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/aug/19/google-m...a
-cohen
Are we not intitled to freedom of speech?
regards to being anonymous i am not hiding, i just disagree with the state of some police officers doing public duty's, the fact of dealing with horror scenes doesnt give an excuse to be obese and unable to carry out basic dutys such as being in pursuit on foot. I am a soldier and have seen and will no doubt see horrific things in the future but i still maintain a level of fitness to carry out my job.
This isnt offensive, just highlighting basic facts that police officers should be fit, look smart and act as a role model for the following generation.
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"...the fact of dealing with horror scenes doesnt give an excuse to be obese..."
So what has obesity to do with this thread - apart from the fact that 5552budd keeps harping on about it?
"Are we not intitled to freedom of speech?" - that depends; this is a website with strict standards (thank goodness). Expressing opinions that you claim to be sincere, but which just happen to wind people up, does not go down well. (Sorry, mods - that might have seemed better coming from you.)
Are we sure 5552budd is not a further incarnation of a certain little-missed contributor to the BR, recently "removed"?
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Glad to see that correct spelling isn't an important part of your job.!!:)
Yes you could easily say that the guy was pretty overweight but what was worse was how excitable one of the traffic cops was earlier on in the episode. So excitable that his behaviour was bordering on irrational.
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Just from seeing the TV program last night I can tell you that the lorry in question was a newish DAF 85 4x2 with a Hill Hire tri axle trailer behind it. It had had a hard jacknife round but nothing major. By the stance of the trailer the way it was sitting nice and square and the fact that there were no bulges in the curtain would lead me to say that there was probably little or no load in the trailer and if there was it certainly hadn't moved far. The back door was smashed in the rear lights were probably smashed too along with the under run bar and other than the tractor units cab damage probably not a lot else. Easy job winch it straight front suspend it wind off the the brakes remove the prop make the loose bits safe and off you go. Tell me I'm wrong...???
You are very, very wrong! Glad you're not examining my scenes!
(And I don't know whether to laugh or despair at the fact you are so wrong)
Roads are open as soon as it's safe to do so. We've cut armco barriers in the path to clear backlogs. We don't open lanes because there are a lot of people who are as inept as the Rover driver. Would you like to be stood on a motorway as someone like him drives by!
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Regardless of the spirited defence of the status quo by the boys in blue and fire service contributors, very much in line with their training and indoctrination, it has to be said the UK does it massively differently to the rest of the Western world
I am sure many of the countries that get their roads open much more quickly are doing perfectly good police investigations into the cause, and maintaining the safety for all involved at the scene
Like road thinning, speed cameras, persecution of average motorists for minor transgressions while often allowing extreme bad behaviour to go unpunished, publically funded propaganda aimed at demonising speed and no effort at all into the many other more serious issues such as driving too close to the car in front, etc etc
All of these are nothing more than fashions amongst the British mandarins, road designers, planners, and emergency services
I doubt there is any academically rigorous evidence that shows our approach is in any way superior to the way many other Western nations do it, if there is please point me at it I'd love to have a read
When I've seen my first road planner/engineer/town planner/civil engineer in court for causing death by negligence by designing a road intersection that is obvious to a child of 5 is a death trap I will remain of the view that the UK public sector is just pushed along by its anti car nutters, and all of the sensible people by keeping quite or just putting up with it are allowing the total and utter madness we have at the moment
Not the fault of the individuals on here
BUT having lived abroad in many places I really don't think the UK has got its act together, the UK is very much not the real leader in running a road and transport system these days
And I have absolute faith that other countries have much for us to learn from
Etc
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Has anybody got any actual evidence that in other parts of the world they close their motorways for less time on average whilst still performing a full and proper investigation into fatalities? If so, then go ahead and share it - then we can start trying to understand what we might be doing wrong over here.
Otherwise, it's just hot air.
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Last summer my friends had an accident on a French autoroute, car somersaulted across the carriageway and landed on an embankment. Two of the passengers had what initially appeared to be serious head injuries.
French police made no attempt to close off any of the motorway, indeed whilst ambulance were still at the scene the police were sweeping all the debris (and potential evidence) off the carriageway .
OK part of th issue may be a language barrier but it literally took 4 days of phone calls to find out where the car had been taken to. It took a few months to get a police report and eventually when this was obtained it basically said they don't know what had happened.
Even though several witnesses at the time gave make and model of a car that hit them.
My friends have endured all sorts of hassles, delays etc that I know for a fact, they would have preferred if the French police were more thorough with their investigation and fact gathering at the scene.
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retgwte
^^Like road thinning, speed cameras, persecution of average motorists for minor transgressions while often allowing extreme bad behaviour to go unpunished, publically funded propaganda aimed at demonising speed and no effort at all into the many other more serious issues such as driving too close to the car in front, etc etc^^
Spot on, Could not have said that better. We live in a country where all law abiding citizens are hammered for minor infringements. But the idiot who steals the car causes umpteen thousands of pounds worth of damage. Also has no insurance, no licence etc gets 6 penalty points/ £600 fine or banned for a year or two.
This country is set up to protect the thugs and not the law abiding citizen.
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Roads are open as soon as it's safe to do so. ...... Would you like to be stood on a motorway as someone like him drives by! >>
So what is special about the UK roads? Why are we the only country in the world to do this?
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Why are we the only country in the world to do this?
Are we?
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If so, then go ahead and share it - then we can start trying to understand what we might be doing wrong over here. Otherwise, it's just hot air. >>
Why are we the only country in the world to do this? Are we? >>
Yes we are. It is enshrined in the ACPO guidelines, which If you know different, name one other country where this practice goes on. Try finding another country which has documents such as
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/road_death_in...f
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/Policing_of_R...f
It all boils down to stuff in the UK love for bureaucracy, the tendency for mission creep, empire building, elfandsafety and "must protect your own back", no one prepared to challenge misuse of "guidelines" as "law", lack of application of common-sense, etc. etc.
The main problem is that no one is held accountable for the chaos and cost of these decisions. No questions asked and if you dare to ask, you get the responses such as regularly given on this forum.
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"It all boils down to stuff in the UK love for bureaucracy, the tendency for mission creep, empire building, elfandsafety and "must protect your own back", no one prepared to challenge misuse of "guidelines" as "law", lack of application of common-sense, etc. etc."
No, it boils down to preventing those people entrusted and paid by yourselves to undertake tasks to help/free casualties without having to worry about being mown down by a rubber necker or the traffic allowed to pass within inches of your backside.
The equipment we carry is stowed in lockers on all parts of the truck. Having to pull trays and gear out with limited space would be suicidal to those working and a possible obstacle to those trying to drive/squeeze past. So for the firefighters that have been knocked down and killed trying to do their duty by helping others on motorways, I think a little leeway here would be more fitting. Don't just think of yourself for once, think of those helping at a scene, and those they are helping. I want to do my job to the best of my ability without having to worry about the traffic. I would rather be caught up in traffic than an accident myself.
I'm sure we would be jumping up and down if casualties arose from those unhurt at a scene, especially if one of your family is involved, because one or two lanes are live.
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Yes we are. It is enshrined in the ACPO guidelines ...etc etc
Yes....BUT that doesn't tell me anything about how quickly other countries clear their roads and whether they perform satisfactory investigations into fatal accidents or not.
Can anyone come up with some meaningful statistical data on road clearance times and investigative quality across the world?
I think BobbyG's post is interesting in that it suggests that France may be quicker at getting their roads clear, but could be uninterested about the causes of accidents and who was responsible.
But it's not hard data we can use to compare, sadly.
Edited by TheOilBurner on 26/08/2009 at 17:35
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>>It all boils down to stuff in the UK love for bureaucracy, the tendency for mission creep, >>empire building, elfandsafety and "must protect your own back", no one prepared to >>challenge misuse of "guidelines" as "law", lack of application of common-sense, etc. etc.
A colleague of mine stopped to assist injured people after an accident before the emergency services arrived, (pre mobile phone days), and was killed by a passing motorist.
Have you stood on a live motorway? I would not by choice.
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Bobby, the incident you descride sound similar to the rolled car earlier in the prog rather than the fatality... and I'm sure I saw vehicles going past that incident, albeit slowly, despite plenty of emergency services personel around.
Luckily I've never come across a fatal road accident when driving in Europe so can't comment... has anyone actually seen one over the channel and what they do?
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spood
i am certainly on the side of good firefighters and cops everywhere
i certainly would like to reduce the risks to all involved as much as possible appropriately balanced with costs to the nation of road closures
we dont shut motorways down when an RAC patrol has to work on a car which can be similar to some of the tasks you have in mind, but ignoring that
i really think the UK needs to swap ideas with some other countries, like our self perception that the NHS is the best health service in the world and arnt we all great for having invented it and for running it (its not its the worst health system I have seen anywhere in the developed world) I think the endless defence of current UK practises on the roads do not stand much scrutiny versus the best of the rest of the world
thats all I am saying, you dont need to be endlessly defensive, I just want you (and your peers) to go look around some other countries a bit more and figure out why we are so different, and publish your findings for proper peer review in a scientific manner, not the psuedo science nonsense that tells us speed kills and such claptrap
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>>its not its the worst health system I have seen anywhere in the developed world)>>
My other half (me as well) would very strongly dispute that - she has had 16 years' virtually flawless treatment for three different serious diseases/illnesses from the NHS, ranging a Glasgow hospital to several Merseyside hospitals. and is continuing to receive first class treatment.
What's more the cost of all this treatment is at a level that would make most people gasp with astonishment, yet is consistently maintained.
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yea yea yea
there are thousands left with no treatment, and terrible levels of treatment
AND its not that cheap for the working population, horrendous levels of tax
and so much more
some OK treatment yea, but nothing remarkable
and definitely nothing remotely world leading
you will note nobody else has or will copy from the NHS, there are good reasons for this
its a crazy delusional national religion the NHS but on the whole the care are the sharp end when you need it most is substandard
to say nothing of the working time wasted while people have to fit their diaries around the NHS and not the other way round
go look round the world Ive seen many systems close up, I am talking from first hand experience not reading the press or the bbc
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b308, difference being with my friends accident, there were 4 passengers carted off in ambulances, 2 with serious head injuries.
In that case in GB, if I am correct in saying, the police would investigate as a possible fatality until they have been updated to the contrary.
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You are very, very wrong! Glad you're not examining my scenes!
Go on then, explain how?
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I doubt it would be appropriate for MLC to do that given that the investigation is still on-going...
It's not really fair to hound him on this really, is it? I guess you have to take his word for it, seeing as he was actually there.
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In this country we maybe do close roads for longer after a crash, but this could be a contributing factor to why we have one of the lowest death rates in the world.
It's from 2004 so a little old, but still relevant.
www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistic...m
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"Are we sure 5552budd is not a further incarnation of a certain little-missed contributor to the BR, recently "removed"? "
Having been away, and not seen his monica anywhere, I was curious as to where he had gone and what was IT that had him removed ?
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HJ
See my reply to M25 J10 - J14 - 26-8-2009 at the bottom.
Looking at the closures from a drivers perspective, I understand how frustrating closing a road you are on is. That is always at the back of my mind, even when I have more pressing matters to think about. But I have priorities and so do the BIB. But I wish there could be a co-ordinated plan whereby the traffic is diverted in an intelligent way, barriers can be easily removed to install contra flows and advance warnings either by signage or radio can provide some escape from resulting congestion.
But even with adequate diversions, the resulting tailbacks will still happen. 3 lanes into 1 will still mean a very long delay, so the answer must be VERY early advance warnings to get oncoming traffic to take an alternative route.
Edited by spood on 27/08/2009 at 01:45
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Yes and what do they do?
They divert the traffic off the motorway at the previous exit, without any diversion signs, and let them fend for themselves. Why not station a Plod car on that roundabout so people can ask 'How do I get to Chippenham now the motorway is closed?' ?
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HJ "They should still be responsible for freeing up a major motorway as soon as is reasonably possible so the rest of us including those using that motorway can earn the money that pays for the jobs they do. "
Thanks for paying my wages...particularly as we apparently stand around with our hands in our pockets, keeping the road closed as long as possible just to annoy you!
"Why not station a Plod car on that roundabout so people can ask 'How do I get to Chippenham now the motorway is closed?"
So you've got a couple of thousand cars coming off, each one stopping to 1. 'has there been an accident' 2. 'Is the road closed then' 3. 'How do I get to Auntie Mables house'.
How long do you think it would take you to get off the motorway?
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midlife
i) you are talking to (mainly) decent folk here, not the scum you routinely deal with
ii) the few people left in the private sector are indeed paying for an ever larger public sector which seems to let the country down ever more every day
iii) really why cannot you see it in your heart to say something like "yes we are trying our best, maybe we should go look at how its done in the rest of the world and see what we can learn"
iv) i dont think anyone is having a pop at the troops on the ground, but the leadership is clearly very poor all the way to the ministers involved, the fake science they use to justify their hair brained ideas dont stand much scrutiny
v) even the media as much as its manipulated by the same leadership is coming round to the bleeding obvious
what we need is more real democracy
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midlife i) you are talking to (mainly) decent folk here not the scum you routinely deal with ii) the few people left in the private sector are indeed paying for an ever larger public sector which seems to let the country down ever more every day
I give up!
Goodbye.
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SQ
I give up! Goodbye.
>>
So...(i) we in here are scum?
(ii) the truth hurts?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/08/2009 at 01:39
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Id better make what I mean clearer.....
Im NOT saying we have too many coppers.... thats plainly not true.(same applies for doctors, nurses, firemen etc.)
what I am saying - we have to many public sector 'managers' and wasters...
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I have seen a lot of such warnings when travelling up the M23 advising of problems on M25, M4 and M40 and they are to be encouraged however I really do have to agree with HJ that the closures are really getting to the point of being ridiculous.
I groaned when I saw HJ's post on this yesterday. The backroom has been through this so many times before with views ranging from ' chuck some sand over the blood and guts and lets get on with it ' to 'keep it closed forever in case somebody might get hurt three miles away'.
The case I always cite as an over the top closure chaos is the 'Spiderman' closure of Tower Bridge Road for almost a week where a 'fathers for justice protestor' was sat on a crane and might possibly have fallen into the road..... The City and financial districts were completely gridlocked.
It all depends on the judgement of the people there and if someone in the police has to make a decision and be accountable to Health and Safety they are always going to err on the side of caution.
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There seems to be an awareness of the economic impact in Wales:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8060469.stm
..and I remember questions being asked when a chicken carrying lorry blocked a major road and seemed to cause most of Scotland to become gridlocked.
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As far as am I concerned it is irrelevant as to whether the road is closed for 5 minutes or 12 hours. At the end of the day somebody has died and if it takes the emergency services 12 hours to do what they have to do to find out what has happened then that?s what has to be.
God forbid that anyone gets the knock at the door and you want to know what has happened. Only to be told sorry or main priority is to get the road opened again to get the traffic moving again.
A point I feel that is maybe being missed.
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bhoy wonder: I have had that knock on the door. I couldn't agree with you more.
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>God forbid that anyone gets the knock at the door and you want to know what has happened
He got it by a lorry, probably his own fault.
What more do you need to know?
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He got it by a lorry probably his own fault. What more do you need to know?
Altea Ego,
I am shocked that you could make such a statment and would expect better from you. Or maybe I am wrong and should not expect any better.
Edited by bhoy wonder on 27/08/2009 at 16:18
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Helicopter, I agree that H&S has a huge impact on this.
If Spiderman fell and crashed through a car windscreen, I bet you there would have been a queue of lawyers the length of Tower Bridge wanting to take the case on and sue everybody that was involved in the situation. If you are ultimately the guy whose head that rests on, then you are not going to be prepared to lose your job as a result. Its much easier to bury your head in the sand and wait for it to pass by, than to take that decision, just in case......
There is a lot of contempt for the police in today's society, you see it on the TV programmes and lets face it, you read it on here. The police should not be untouchable - they need to answer for their actions. But those actions can vary from closing a motorway to now every little silly incident they get involved with, a toerag they arrest will have his own lawyer, being paid by you and me, to sue and claim for everything that is going and the police in this respect need to be so squeaky clean I wonder why they bother.
With respect to the motorway incidents, as with all walks of life in all types of business, there are people who make decisions to cover their backsides. So if Mr Joe Bloggs who is Mr Police decides that from now on we will open motorways as quickly as possible, we will not treat is as a Scene of Crime etc then Mr Bloggs needs to know that he will be protected and that no MP, lawyer or whoever could then hold him accountable for anything that may have been discovered that could have been used as evidence. Until that happens, like you or me in our own jobs, they will look after number 1.
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HJ, why don't you use your media presence to do an open letter in your column to the Chief Constable of the specific areas mentioned in this and the M25 thread and ask for an open discussion or at least ask for the facts and justification of the decisions to be made?
It might provide an insight for us all?
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I am with midlifecrisis on this one. They have to investigate death or serious injury and this takes a little time. Perhaps we should ask our selfs as 90% of crashes are caused by human error if we all drove better there would be 90% less crashes and 90% less congestion caused by this. Whats wrong with carrying a road map in the car so when your diverted off a motorway you can still find your way to Auntie Mabels's house.
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Perhaps we should ask our selfs as 90% of crashes are caused by human error if we all drove better there would be 90% less crashes and 90% less congestion caused by this.
As 99.99% of us dont crash 99.99% of the time, then your 90% of that seems very small.
you could clear 100% of the congestion by clearing the road.
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If what you say is true
As 99.99% of us dont crash 99.99% of the time then your 90% of that seems very small.
Then a crash would not cause any problems, which we all know does
you could clear 100% of the congestion by clearing the road.
Or not have congestion because we didn't crash
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There are only two reasons the police cant keep roads open,
1/ They dont have call on the resources to get the wreckage of the road qucikly enough
or
2/ As there is no such thing as an "accident" any more. someone needs to be blamed, & prosecuted regardless of the circumstances. No-one is allowed a single error of judgement, a brief lapse in concentration any more, its illegal.
Edited by Altea Ego on 27/08/2009 at 15:28
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AE, I can't believe I'm having to explain this, but I will.
For starters, when a family loses its breadwinner due to a "single error of judgement" or a "brief lapse in concentration", there is the strong possibility that they may wish to pursue the offender for damages. If everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says "accidents happen", this becomes impossible.
I could go on, as money is hardly the only issue at stake here.
I know, because I was there, as they say.
We can not have a situation on the roads where fatal errors of judgement and lapses of concentration go unpunished. It's tantamount to saying you don't have to look where you're going.
Not only this, there is plenty of scope for incidents to be classed as accidents by the courts and authorities, is there not?
Edited by Alanovich on 27/08/2009 at 15:52
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> this becomes impossible.
This is why you have insurance. No-one needs to be blamed for this to pay out.
Are you saying you have never, ever had an accident of any kind (not just motoring) or that you have concentrated 100% of the time all the time and never made an error of judgement that has caused an injury (however minor and not just motoring) to your self or others?
No you cant.
Nor can you tell me you have concentrated 100% of the time all the time and never ever made an ewrror of judgement on the road.
So now we come down to the fact we have all done it, you are admitting you can be prosecuted for the OUTCOME alone.
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AE, does your car insurance cover the family of someone you kill for lost income for the rest of their (now curtailed) working life? I don't think mine does.
In cases where people are killed by reckless driving, private prosecutions can be undertaken to recover damages from the guilty party. These can only be undertaken if an full investigation has taken place and fault ascertained.
I don't expect every accident to be classifed as having someone 100% at fault - of course not. But there has to be an investigation at the scene of an accident to gather evidence in order to keep this line open as a possibility. Surely that's right and proper?
When you have to live your life with the image of your father's crushed corpse lying in the road, it's of some comfort to know that society has taken the trouble and time to ascertain what happened to him, and also to know that the person responsible has been taken to task, should it be appropriate once the facts of the incident are known as well as they can be. And yes, of course, an investigation can quite easily show the dead to have been to blame also.
Of course I can not say that I have always concentrated 100%, daft to suggest otherwise. But I do my best and expect to be taken to task should a lapse cause someone's death. Others don't do their best and need also to be taken to task.
I don't understand your last sentence. Causing death by dangerous driving is an offence. Causing death by careless driving is an offence. Also, drivers can be prosecuted for dangerous and careless driving without causing death. What's your point? Drivers shouldn't be prosecuted at all?
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> What's your point? Drivers shouldn't be prosecuted at all?
You have hit the nail on the head. whats the difference between careless driving and causing a death by carless driving?
The action was the same, the outcome is different. Its probably an act of god or the speed the ambulance arrives that could determine the two offences. So why treated differently?
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> What's your point? Drivers shouldn't be prosecuted at all? You have hit the nail on the head. whats the difference between careless driving and causing a death by carless driving?
Let me expand that, with a real live personal case.
I failed to see in time and stop at a giveway juntion on a quiet country road. The cause was poor road design, inadequate signs and maintenance of the road markings, and a lapse of concentration on my part.
I hit a rather large bus and knocked it off the road, injured my self and the bus driver.
Prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, 9 points and fat fine. Fair enough a bit harsh perhaps as there was contributary causes but hey ho. the road was cleared by the time my ambulance took me away.
The bus was empty
If the bus was full of school kids and 10 of the died. Same accident, same cause, different outcome. The road would have been closed for a day, I would have been jailed.
Is that Fair? I would be judged and prosecuted on an OUTCOME, (over which I have no control as I have just proved, the outcome was different) not the ACT its self.
Is that fair justice?
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Is that fair justice?
Seems like it to me.
Any other way and we're saying that deaths on the road are no more serious than accidents where no-one is killed. Which would provide no disincentive to people to try to drive in a manner least likely to kill someone.
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What were you driving if you hit a large bus and knocked it off the road ?
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Is that fair justice?
Maybe not fair but understandable and the way justice has always worked where life is concerned. If I get a gun and shoot at you there could be 3 different outcomes and 3 different offences depending on whether I miss, wound you, or kill you. It's the same with motoring offences.
The investigation required for each case is also different and it's the same with motoring situations, if someone dies more thorough investigation is required to be more certain of all the facts and circumstances.
The procedures required are a matter for the politicians to define either in detail or at a policy level. Whether they take too long to do on a busy road is a matter of opinion.
To criticise the officers on site for doing the job they are charged to do is attacking the wrong people. I cannot believe that they are not trying to do it as thoroughly and as efficiently as possible.
Equally I am reluctant to judge the seriousness of a situation and what should be done about it based on what I see on television or in the newspaper after it has been edited and slanted in either case.
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>> Is that fair justice? Maybe not fair but understandable and the way justice has always worked where life is concerned. If I get a gun and shoot at you there could be 3 different outcomes and 3 different offences depending on whether I miss wound you or kill you. It's the same with motoring offences.
That's a ridiculous comparison. If you fire a gun at someone you are intending to do them harm, AE describes an accident caused by a lapse in concentration we are all guilty of many times over, fortunately without consequence 99.9% of the time. We have no control over the outcome of these mistakes, we have to rely on good fortune and to crucify or jail an otherwise responsible citizen who didn't get away with it like the rest of us do is pointless.
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That's a ridiculous comparison.
No it's not, it's making the point that the outcome, whatever the intention, will still affect the level of the punishment.
If you cause any kind of accident the consequences will always be determined by how much damage is caused especially if it results in serious injury, motoring is no different.
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No it's not it's making the point that the outcome whatever the intention will still affect the level of the punishment. If you cause any kind of accident the consequences will always be determined by how much damage is caused especially if it results in serious injury motoring is no different.
Not really, the penalty for attempted murder is much the same as murder. Its just as serious,
because you intended harm
Edited by Altea Ego on 27/08/2009 at 20:05
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Whatever, sorry if anybody got upset, I don't know what the sentences are anyway
no point in carrying on yet another pointless argument.
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>AE, does your car insurance cover the family of someone you kill for lost income for the >rest of their (now curtailed) working life? I don't think mine does.
Yes it does and so does mine. You sue the insurance company of the driver involved regardless of blame. Thats whay you pay it. You can even sue your own insurance comany for you own injuries for an accident you caused
No driver has to be prosecuted for a driving offence in a court of law for that to happen. Its handy for your case if it does, but nothing more than that.
Edited by Altea Ego on 27/08/2009 at 16:44
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Alanovich
A small mistake is a small mistake regardless of whether it kills somebody or not
This country chooses to punish the person making the mistake much more harshly if they happen to kill somebody, while people making the very same mistake in their thousands every day are routinely let off or given minor punishment
I'm not so sure this is the right approach
And I certainly do not expect any driver to be completely faultless and without any mistakes
We also tend to let off certain categories of killers with little punishment, the old lady who pulls out of a side road into the path of a motorbike and kills the biker is almost always given modest punishment and back out driving immediately, and often continues to pull out in a reckless way, other people are treated much more harshly - the way the system deals with people is far from fair or unbiased
As regards blame and court cases I think there is lots and lots of scope for moving away from constantly blaming the driver towards also blaming the person who designed that particular road feature - this never happens in the UK
One of the biggest scandals is that we have people making a living out of designing road junctions, and some of the worst, who have designed death trap junction after death trap junction are still working and never fear for their job or the consequences of their incompetence
I think a lot more is down to the way the system is managed from on high, and a lot more blame is due at that level, than the punishments which just about all end up on individual drivers
The folk responsible for the style of road design, the folk responsible for the culture of policing with cameras, the folk responsible for the media messages, the folk responsible for teaching the driving instructors, and the folk responsible for training the emergency services all have a slice of the responsibility
As it is I think on many of these issues we have much to learn from other countries, MLC by definition being a working cop in this country will not be seeing how its done in so many other countries as I do, and I think in the little UK bubble some of this probably looks reasonable, with a wider view it just looks poor very poor
I think we need a much more humble attitude at the big picture level, and a serious rethink
Edited by retgwte on 27/08/2009 at 16:09
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I think a lot more is down to the way the system is managed from on high, and a lot more blame is due at that level, than the punishments which just about all end up on individual drivers
Absolutely right retgwte.
In the police context, the frontline plod who gets a lot of the flak and does all the work may also find it hard to criticise his lords and masters (usually a poor career move). Despite honourable exceptions, most of the latter are concerned more or less exclusively with maintaining position at the top of the greasy pole. Very little of that energy is devoted to proper policing.
The insolence of politicians and the high officials they associate with grows more shameless by the year. We as taxpayers own these carphounds. Why do we allow them to carry on behaving as if they were our bosses? Sooner or later something will have to give. When it does, if things carry on as they are now, the spectacle will be dishearteningly stupid and nasty.
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retgwte, sounds nice. Got any suggestions?
For the time being, we've got what we've got. Police and emergency servies must be allowed to investigate road incidents in the fullest manner they see fit. They're the ones on the scene, every time.
I applaud them and thank them for scraping my Dad off the road, and coming round and telling my Mum. And for helping us find out why he had to die through the courts. Which led to us being able to secure our family's financial future. And I don't mean we got rich, we just had enough money to get by.
I strongly suspect that eveyone espousing the argument that roads must be reopened without full investigations of incidents hasn't been in my position. I stand to be corrected and apologise in advance if this upsets anyone.
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HJ, can I ask my question again?
HJ, why don't you use your media presence to do an open letter in your column to the Chief Constable of the specific areas mentioned in this and the M25 thread and ask for an open discussion or at least ask for the facts and justification of the decisions to be made?
It might provide an insight for us all?
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We already know the M25 was closed both ways between J12 and J14 from midday to 15.00. HJ
Wasn't that due to a gas leak?
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I think this whole area has to have a balance, that in the past the balance was skewed badly against the victims of car accidents/incidents, but maybe that balance has gone slightly too far in some circs.
This country has often led the way re forward thinking, progressive practices and that should not be knocked, although i'd acknowledge we can go too far e.g. some of the Health and Safety silliness (although the bigger picture stuff with H&S is to be admired IMO).
In this country we have amazing figures for solving murders, even in London with a 6 million population, much of it transient, it is over 80%. There was one County where it used to be 100%.....yet, in the old days an 'accident' involving death was virtually thought of as 'ho hum, accidents happen'. If you wanted to kill someone, drive over them and then say 'sorry I made a mistake'. More often than not you'd get away with it or at the worst cop a manslaughter charge with a minor sentence. If someone was stabbed to death on a pavement, there'd be tens of detectives investigating it, headed by a Det Superintendent...if someone was driven over and killed on the same bit of road, you might have two traffic based officers investigating it, headed by a Sergeant.
ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) changed the guidance, so considerably more resources go into serious accident investigations...in the same way they always have for other investigations.
That's what has changed.
The road closures have a twofold angle IMO:
1, Safety of the public/emergency personnel etc, inc removal of the vehicles and repair of the infrastructure
2, Investigation of the incident.
I suspect no.2 sometimes takes too long having regard to all the pertinent facts e.g. the importance of the toad concerned, as HJ states.
I'd be interested to know if things like support staff availability, have a marked affect on the times a road can be left closed e.g. a photographer...i.e. is there one immediately available, will they come out now, is it more desirable (for evidence gathering) to leave it until daylight, despite the importance of that road to many thousands of people who need to use it, could an acceptable standard be achieved now with extra lighting...etc, etc
I think the balance needs to be looked at, so that the often junior officers who instigate the closures do not get used to doing so because 'that's the way we always do it' and actively consider the bigger picture i.e. the costs to the country and those people stuck in jams.
How many very ill people, mums in labour, parents with young children..or maybe even deaths (can't imagine it does the ambulance service or fire brigade any favours)... have occurred in the long jams caused by a lengthy road closure?
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I'd be interested to know if things like support staff availability have a marked affect on the times a road can be left closed e.g. a photographer...i.e. is there one immediately available will they come out now is it more desirable (for evidence gathering) to leave it until daylight despite the importance of that road to many thousands of people who need to use it could an acceptable standard be achieved now with extra lighting...etc etc
>>
Thanks for your input Westpig, just one point. Is a photographer really required? Dont accident investigation teams have digital cameras, they are only going to tell a photographer what to take anyway, and cameras are pretty plodproof these days. The navy would say "jackproof".
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Is a photographer really required? Dont accident investigation teams have digital cameras they are only going to tell a photographer what to take anyway and cameras are pretty plodproof these days. The navy would say "jackproof".
Not my area of expertise unfortunately, maybe mlc can help
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Not many amateurs understand the limitations of built-in exposure meters, or flash, for which separate metering may be required. If indeed flash can be used in and around flammable atmospheres. Slow shutter speeds may require tripod usage. Can be overcome, but learning "on the job" takes time, which I guess is in short supply, and there will be missed/unusable shots. Taking photos in adverse conditions is not the same as taking a happy snap on a sunny day.
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Taking photos in adverse conditions is not the same as taking a happy snap on a sunny day.
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I see your point, dilution of skills, but we are talking about recording an accident scene, not airbrushing celebrities for a magazine. A professional should get near perfect results, an amature should get acceptable results with todays equipment. Particularly if he knows what it is important to record.
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I see your point dilution of skills but we are talking about recording an accident scene not airbrushing celebrities for a magazine.
I suspect the concern is that those photos could be used as evidence in a later court case... whereas a professional would know what areas would need photographing I doubt if the ordinary PC would without considerable training - It seems as though they are initially treating the scene of a road fatality as a crime scene with everything that entails including a proper photographer.... in the case in point they still don't know what caused it so perhaps they have a point in using the professional?
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>>.. If indeed flash can be used in and around flammable atmospheres>>
Built-in camera flashes are fully sealed.
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ON: taking shots at night, with emergency lighting etc, or no light, requires intimate knowledge of settings etc for exposure compensation. I reckon most uswrs would fumble greatly.
Stuartli: Sealed? Against flammable gasses? Built in flashes in ordinary cameras would not pass Ex ratings. Certificated equipment can be obtained, at a price.
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>>Built in flashes in ordinary cameras would not pass Ex ratings. >>
I wouldn't have any hesitation in using a modern digital camera in such circumstances or, in fact, my eight-year-old Minolta compact camera.
I've photographed road accidents on numerous occasions whilst working as a Press photographer and that was with far, far more powerful flash units (with film cameras) than relatively low output digital models.
Edited by Stuartli on 29/08/2009 at 01:10
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WP
Good to see a well reasoned reply after the way the thread has degenerated. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you still spending your time 'out' - time to get into policy making?
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WP wrote >> I think the balance needs to be looked at, so that the often junior officers who instigate the closures do not get used to doing so because 'that's the way we always do it' and actively consider the bigger picture i.e. the costs to the country and those people stuck in jams. >>
I'm delighted to see that because I wrote in the M25 closure thread >> I'm trying to think of a polite way of putting this, but I get an impression of self-righteousness in the "this is the way we handle it" approach to road closure and, in effect, the rest of you just have to put up with it.>>
I've seen roads closed and traffic disrupted where I can't help thinking that the closure is by rote and not out of necessity. I think that road closure must be a last resort and not because someone has broken down, say.
I saw an A road partially closed recently near a junction with the effect that not one but three roads were disrupted. Just silly, IMHO.
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>>Correct me if I am wrong but are you still spending your time 'out' - timeto get into policy making?
Don't go telling the lads at work that i'm 'out' will you!
I try to be out as much as possible. A permanent desk job wouldn't be me, but thanks for the thought.
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I'm currently reading Perverting the Course of Justice by "Inspector Gadget", a personal account of life today in the police force (you and other BiBs on the forums may well have read it and an earlier similar publication, Wasting Police Time by "PC David Copperfield", which I've still to acquire).
PTCJ is an absorbing read and a fascinating insight into modern day police forces and the constant interference from higher authorities, in sharp contrast to earlier times - I can thoroughly recommend reading it.
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Thanks for the reply HJ.
I still think it would be worth running as a piece, someway or another, if even just to get a feel of whether it is something that annoys the British motoring public or not?
Also re questions / lead times, does this mean any reader who contacts you waits 7/8 weeks for a reply or is it that just that time for the best to get published?
In future, please ask questions like this that interrupt a thread by e-mailing me directly. E-mailers usually get a reply same day. But because there are an average of well over 100 of them a day, that can create a log jam of e-mails for the column. Pre-compiled column are then re-edited and updated 2-3 weeks before publication date, then filed for publication. HJ.
Edited by Honestjohn on 28/08/2009 at 18:11
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