Have look under the rocker cover - if it is fairly spotless use anything you like and change it regularly.
If there is a load of tar and treacle on the non-moving parts then avoid a high-spec modern oil as it may disperse the crud and shift it into the rest of the engine.
Regarding viscosity, you'll find that oil FLOW is much more important than oil pressure. If the engine is in good working order, the pressure should be ok with 10W30 or 20W50.
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I reckon the best compromise is a 15/50. Same viscosity when hot as a 20/50 and thinner when cold, when it needs to be. You need a '50', they leak enough as it is! Thinner oils won't do much if any harm, but you'll burn and leak a lot more. I've run my Moggy on this for over 10 years and it's still fine.
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Well thats confused us all!
EF, I agree that with you that he should not use synthetic or semi-synthetic, that is the advice given by the Classic mags... apart from the tollerences, its just a waste of money on older cars...
But at the beginning I did ask the OP to check that his car hadn't been re-engined, simply because if it had they could have used the later A+... or even a fuel injected ex Mini engine, as that would change the advice... I can't see a reply so assume that its on its original engine!
I know that my handbook on the Maxi gives the spec of the oil that should be used, all the OP needs to do is look it up in his handbook and then go on one of the oil sites which tells you what the correct modern oil is... simplzzz.
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My first car (in 1964) was a 1960 1098cc Dove Grey Morris Minor, bought secondhand for £345.
I used to do the oil and filter changes etc and keep the SU carb points in order - I used the available mineral oil (Castrol) at the time, but I wouldn't dream of using semi-synthetic or synthetic if I still owned one.
The Minor was a classic learner's car - all four wheels right in the corners, rear wheel drive, sharp steering and a chuckability factor that was great fun despite the lack of power.
I'd had the Minor for two years before I discovered that the rear seat could be dropped down by releasing a high up retaining strap on the seat from the boot...
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...and a chuckability factor...
Not on crossplys. :)
And the low power was a safety feature to balance the ineffective brakes.
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>>Not on crossplys. :)>>
I use to surprise my then best pal, who had a Mini Cooper S, by keeping up with him reasonably well on country roads - underpants use to be a different colour though afterwards..:-)
What's more I never had any problems with braking performance - the only car I ever did was a Fiat Regata 1.6S and it was something that was prevalent throughout the range at the time.
They were either on or off with absolutely no progressive feel and the expectation that you were never going to stop in time... Bit like the hatchback VW Polos without servos.
Edited by Stuartli on 10/08/2009 at 11:42
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...and a chuckability factor... Not on crossplys. :)
The great advantage we had in starting off driveing in those days was that as the old crossplies had little grip and broke away an a fairly prgogresive manner we could learn a bit of car control in comparitive safetey.
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>> But at the beginning I did ask the OP to check that his car hadn't been re-engined simply because if it had they could have used the later A+... or even a fuel injected ex Mini engine as that would change the advice... I can't see a reply so assume that its on its original engine!
>>
Er... With respect b308, I think if you re-read your post, I think you will agree that it is at least open to another interpretation - no question mark at the end of the sentence for example. ; - )
However, The car hasn't been re-engined with a later version - to the best of my knowledge.
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I'm not going to fall out over it! ;-)
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I stumbled over this on the webnet thing. Seems pretty comprehensive, I can't vouch for its accuracy.
tinyurl.com/dnsnc
Which to some degree answers my own question.
Edited by drbe on 10/08/2009 at 16:49
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>>However, The car hasn't been re-engined with a later version -
>>to the best of my knowledge.
I'll find my information out in the morning, but I'm fairly certain the 1960 version was built 998cc
AFAIR
in 1960, it would be large single piece windscreen, but rear light clusters a bit smaller than the slightly later 1098 (and maybe with trafficators too). Maybe 1962 for 1098, about the time of the Minor 1,000,000.. in Lilac.
If really pushed I could find out the original lubrication specification - grease trunnions every 1k, for instance....
The 998 was a smoother and better balanced lump.
Enough for now.
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Oh goody, an oil thread!
I get these every day on the Harley forums, and since my own speciality is older iron, here's my twopennorth on this one.
Unless the OP's engine has recently had a full overhaul, my advice is to use a NON-DETERGENT 20/50 mineral oil. I have always been led to believe that modern detergent oils have a nasty tendency to shift crud which is better off staying where it is, and depositing it into a narrow oilway where it can starve a bearing. I've always used Morris oils for the simple reason that they're more easily available in rural outlets, many agricultural factors stock them. AND they're a British company!
I have always thought that the more frequent service and overhaul intervals on older engines did at least encourage owners to look after their cars (and bikes) better. Modern engines might thrive on neglect but that remarkable durability means that owners tend to get lazy about other bits of routine maintenance like lights and tyre pressures.
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I have always been led to believe that modern detergent oils have a nasty tendency to shift crud which is better off staying where it is
If that is the case, then couldn't the build up of crud deposits also block oil ways? Where exactly do you expect this crud to accumulate?
It seems likes you lose either way.
Perhaps the ideal solution is to do a full strip down and rebuild and then use a decent modern oil from that day on...
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Perhaps the ideal solution is to do a full strip down and rebuild and then use a decent modern oil from that day on...
It is, I agree; but I also live by the mantra of "if it ain't broke" to a great extent. Generally speaking though, by the time the crud has built up to that level the engine will be ready for a stripdown (rebore or big ends) anyway.
I think we tend to forget in this day and age that it is not so long ago that any engine which had been "round the clock" even once without a major overhaul was considered exceptional. Nowadays two or three times round (especially on stuff like BMW and Mercedes) is not even worthy of mention.
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Forgive the pedantry, but just for the record the Minor 1000 came in in 1956 with 948 cc. The 1098 cc version of the venerable A-series came with the Morris 1100 in 1962 and must have gone into the Minor around then.
Wasn't there a 998 cc version that went into the original Mini Cooper (original Mini had 848 cc) and then into the Mini 1000 in the late 1960s?
After all that, I have no idea about the engine oil except for a memory of always using 20/50 in my MG 1100 (1966, owned from new by my father and then by me).
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the first mini cooper was the 997 , based on the 848 motor , then they brought out the 998 , that was a lot stronger , as i said in my posting above , a economical 20/50 , which after all BMC developed? , would do nice in this engine , along with the later screw on filter.
having said that , my father had 4 x minors , 2 x austin a35s , cortina mk 1 2 and 3 and viva,s and i was involved in rallying and motorsport in the 70s , all oil was free from the local tech collage my father tought at , rottella 30 , "if its good enought for the council busses , the bin wagins and the mayors rolls " " its good enough for a piggin mini"
he was right?
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PS: the mini/1100 (transverse) used a different engine block to the humble minor , the minor engine in its lifetime went on to fuel the midget , and even the marina (ok in 1.3guise) , but the blocks are not interchangable (look at the filter housing?)
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Where exactly do you expect this crud to accumulate? <<
Generally where the oil is NOT being pushed along under pressure - that's why sludge forms on components rather than in galleries/on bearings.
Eventually if there is enough sludge it will choke these too.
If, however, formed deposits are dispersed as little fragments, these will then go around the engine, and risk blocking the previously clear oilways.
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I think the non-detergent oil idea would be true if the car was dragged out of a barn where it has sat since the sixties. If it's been in regular use all it's life then it is highly likely it has had everyday oil in it, which for many years means detergent oil. I also use Morris oils, a 15/50 as already mentioned, but it meets modern specifications so presumably employs detergents.
I have owned many older cars over the years and still run cars from 1953, 1964 and 1968. All have been fine on modern oils as long as the viscocity is high enough, though interestingly my 1953 car originally specified a 10/30! It now gets 15/50 and is fine. All get regular oil and filter changes, all with spin-on filter conversions, and I've never had an oil-related engine failure (touch wood!).
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>>However The car hasn't been re-engined with a later version - >>to the best of my knowledge.
Er........... on the other hand, perhaps it has??
The log book difinitely says 1960.
I am assured by people who seem to know what they are talking about that it is a 1098cc engine.
If BMC didn't start putting 1098 engines into Minors until 1962, then it must be a re-engined version?
Unless, of course, there is yet another explanation?
Edited by drbe on 12/08/2009 at 10:07
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can you provide us with the first few didgets of the engine number?
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@Avant
absolutely right about the earlier "A" series being 948 - not 998 as I wrote above.
Regarding the 948 to 1098 change-over, during 1962:
chassis 946761 to 990289 (17th September end of 948 production)
chassis 990290 to 1005482 (17th Sptember onwards, 1098 prouction).
The Minor Millions (1000000 to 10000349) were built ahead of production number allocation in 1960 along with 790007 to 886160.
The earliest lube info I have so far (early Haynes) for engine and gearbox is in this range:
S.A.E 30, 20W/30, 20W/50
with a 3K service interval.
I should have more original information somewhere, but as witnessed by my mistake with remembering the engine capacity, my head doesn't work reliably these days.
FWIW the 948 and 1098 "A" series engines are virtually identical externally, but the (originally fitted) airfilter assembly is out to the right beyond the carb on 1098, whereas the 948 had a big round filter on top.
Engine number prefixes 9M or 10M for 948 or 1098
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In the 80s I ran my 1965 1098cc Minor for years on Duckhams Hypergrade, which was 15W-50, without problems.
BTW, it certainly was chuckable on crossplies - I could drift it on opposite lock all the way round a local cloverleaf off-ramp, in the dry.
I changed to radials after a similar, but UNintended, 'not-really-pointing-the-right-way' episode on a large 3-lane roundabout that was only slightly damp.
These undoubtedly gave greater mechanical grip, but I was dismayed to find that the rear of the car would now only go round that same off-ramp in a series of grip-hop-grip-hops, feeling like it was on the point of toppling over.
Off-topic, I've half a mind that this kind of thing is a factor in the surprising number of teenagers getting killed we hear about - modern tyres (on a modern FWD car with feel-less electric PAS) have so much grip that when they do eventually let go, the car is travelling at a much higher speed.
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the first few didgets of the engine number?
>>
10MA-U-H 133***
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>>10MA-U-H 133***
which does indeed make it 1098.
Do you _really know_ all the history of a car which is nearly 50 years old?
We have a Minor 1000 which is "only" 44 years old, and I don't know what its original owner did to it in its first 11 years and 39K miles, anymore than I know everything my FIL did to it while he was its custodian for nearly 20 years.
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>> Do you _really know_ all the history of a car which is nearly 50 years old?
No I don't. Or was that intended to be a rhetorical question?
Edited by drbe on 12/08/2009 at 14:30
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I suppose it wasn't directly aimed at you, but whoever it is that insists the engine is original in a 1960 Minor 1000.
>>I recently purchased a Morris Minor as a 'fun' car.
>>It's a 1098cc engine of, I think 1960 vintage.
>However, The car hasn't been re-engined with a later version -
>to the best of my knowledge.
Time for my medication, I think
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Just stick some Castrol 20/50 in the critter & change it twice a year -
www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?c...2
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>>20/50
Why use this horrid thick oil? There's no need for it.
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>>> Why use this horrid thick oil? There's no need for it. <<<
Well, that's what *I* would use in any 20 year old + 'cooking' engine.
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as per post 8:
20-50 oil was developed by austin-morris (BLMC) especially for the new mini released in 1959.
this oil was different to the previously used oils , because it had to lubricate the gearbox and diff , on the new transverse engine.
I have several old brit motorcycles , that WERE supposed to be run on the older 30sae ,
If you collect the owners manuals / and or haynes manuals for the bikes (all production stopped in the early 70s) , you will see the mfg were recommending 20-50 at the end.
I have no problems with using this , and actually buy my oils from supermarkets (£4.99 - £5.99 a GALLON)
modern oils , INC supermarket oils are far better in terms of protection , than oils from the 50s or 60s.
if yours is an earlier car , it might just have a paper filter , that is a pain to change , and might be getting rare now , the later mini/allegro/marina etc (a series) had a screw on filter , and changing the oil was easier/cleaner , there are plenty of those about , 2 bolts and a gsk
hope this helps
i,m now singing a song in my head :
Round, like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel.
Never ending or beginning,
On an ever spinning wheel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnaval balloon
Like a carousell that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes on it's face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind
Like a tunnel that you follow
To a tunnel of it's own
Down a hollow to a cavern
Where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving
In a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble
Someone tosses in a stream.
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes on it's face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind
because we have come full circle on this one
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Re: Windmills of your mind ...
Great song freddy, I remember the late 60's version by Jose Felatio
One verse went -
"Keys that jingle in your pocket
Words that jangle in your head
Why did summer go so quickly?
was it something that you said?
I used to see it as "Is the jingle in your pocket, Worth the jangle in your head?
I think my version is more apt don't you think :)
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agreed , happy dayz !!
on a car thread tho ,,
still think supermarket qlty 20/50 is a better oil than the 30sae used in the 60s
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still think supermarket qlty 20/50 is a better oil than the 30sae used in the 60s
Hear Hear, its lasted the best part of 50 years using 20/50, I dont see why it wont last the next 50 using the same.....
Now.. IF you rebuild it to the latest spec's (A+) then.....'better' oil would be worth while.......
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Owning several "classic" brit motorcycles , I have tried all the "expensive" "classic" oils over a good number of miles , and found no difference using the cheaper supermarket types.(20/50)
The only time I stay ith the "classic" oils is bikes that have a gearbox/wet clutch , as the plates stick with multigrades.
do you know that for the last 20 - 30 yrs , most chaincases ( containing the primary drive and clutch) , the recomendation has to use ATF instead of the origional 20sae?
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Remember also that oil seals on older engines were often marginal when new. The front crankshaft 'seal' was often just a scroll that pushed the oil back when the engine was running. Using a thin oil is a good way to rustproof the underside.
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as per my post above , using synthetic in a merc 608 box van , it leaked out of every oriface ,
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>>for the new mini released in 1959.
But, we aren't talking about a Mini - or any other BMC car with a gearbox in its sump. The heavy 50 weight was needed to protect the gears.
There's no need at all to use this horrid thick oil in a Minor's A series engine.
The front oil seal on a Minor is not a scroll type seal.
What's the engineering feature of a A+ engine which suddenly allows a less prehistoric, less treacly oil to be used?
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What's the engineering feature of a A+ engine which suddenly allows a less prehistoric less treacly oil to be used?
Oh come on NC... the A+ was an improved version of the long lived A series, and IIRC (and Im sure I do) many (if not all) of the bearings inside the A+ used a different material, and they were built to closer tolerances.
A quote from you earlier in the thread.
'Hang on - I already know the answer - the engines which were produced for years and years tended to have much longer lives when filled with modern oils (in this context, post mid 1980's spec, API SG and newer). Compare how long Ford Pintos lasted when fitted in Sierras to when fitted in Cortinas, etc, etc.'
Again there were internal differences in the early and late versions of the Pinto engine.
the main weak spot of the Pinto, was of course the camshaft spray bar, which blocked up, normally due to a lack of oil changes and / or short journeys. (mayonnaising up)
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>>the A+ was an improved version of the long lived A series,
The main differences were that the block was stiffened, the tappet chest covers were deleted, and the timing chain tensioner was (finally!) updated. In terms of materials and "tolerances" I don't think there was any step change that would suddenly mandate a change in oil requirements for the engine.
Yes, spray bars were improved on pinto engines, but, as I'm sure you're well aware, spray bar and camshaft failures were not the only failures of pintos. Actually, one could argue that the spray bar problems were actually a lubrication failure that would probably never have come to light had a more suitable oil been available at the time.
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>>The front oil seal on a Minor is not a scroll type seal
I never said it was. I was making a point about many older engines in general. Most A series engines leak. They will leak more with a thinner oil. A 50 weight oil isn't 'horrid', a rather subjective term for an oil.
Bored with this now. Bye bye.
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I've always been a 'Castrol man' - GTX in the old days ... I've tried many other oils at times
- BP Visco Static, Valveoline, Mobil, Duckhams etc., etc., etc. ... but I've always gone back to Castrol.
I had a Toyota Hiace once and thought I'd 'give it the best' with some Mobil 1 ... the noise from the engine next morning made me replace it mucho pronto with 'old faithful'.
I had a VW Transporter once, 2.1 fuel injected flat 4 lump, I had it from new & always fed it GTX, one day I had a momentary lapse of reason and put in some Duckhams Hypergrade -
the hydraulic tappets just wouldn't shuddup next morning - until I replaced the oil with ...!
I used to get my old Volvo 240 GLT serviced at a garage and whenever I got the critter back, the oil light would stay on far too long from cold, til I replaced the Vauxhall oil they used with ...! + a *Volvo* oil filter.
My 32 incher cost me £850, ya can now get a 32" LCD £249 ... the same goes with supermarket oil (IMO) - you gets what you pays for.
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>>I never said it was.
I didn't say that you had said it was. I was simply saying that it wasn't.
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seeing as the engine isnt newly rebuit from what i read and having used more modern oils in older engines only to find i get piston blow by by doing it
im a 20/50 man im afraid
change it twice a year to stop all the arrceeds in it doing their worst,dont rev the engine when cold and give it a decent run once a month and the old a series will outlive us all
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