A question on behalf of my Father-in-Law, which I wonder if anyone can help with.
His 1999 Avensis 5 dr SE Liftback has just been through its 27,000 mile service and the engineer (Toyota dealer from where he bought the car as new) has said that the front discs and pads are very badly worn and will need replacing within 6 months, cost £250.
Prior to 1999, he ran a Carina for 8 years and the brakes never needed changing (the same garage serviced it regularly). A suggestion has been made by the mechanic that the problem is that his British built Avensis is made of inferior quality parts compared to the Japanese built Carina.
He is all the more disappointed because he is an 'Advanced Motorist' and pays particular attention to how he drives the car.
Does anybody have any suggestions/advice or should he just accept that he will have to pay the £250?
Thanks, Kelv.
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Go on then, I'll stick my neck out if no-one else will!
Sounds unlikely if the car is driven gently, thoug I have worn out pads faster than this.
My course of action would be to phone the dealer and ask them what the measurements were and what the specifications are. If you call them and they don't have this information, it's probably because they didn't measure them.
Can you look at the pads yourself? Do they look to only have a couple of mm material left on the backing plate? Do the discs have a big lip indicating that they are worn?
Could you take the car to another garage for a 2nd opinion?
Hope this helps, others will no doubt advise soon!
Andy
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Pad and disc wear can vary wildly, and not just due to obvious hard use.
27K is a bit soon for pads but not completely unreasonable. It is rather early for discs though, most will go over 50K.
I wonder if they are supposed to be worn thin or pitted/ridged from lack of use?
I'm just filing away a service sheet for a customer that comments....
Brake pads required soon. Front discs evenly worn but measure 17.35mm (o/s) and 16.92mm (n/s). Makers spec advised min 18.5mm.
Advise job carried out ASAP.
That is the sort of detail you need, it should be available.
David W
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This reply might be a bit late for you, but just for the record, I have just changed the pads and disks on my 1999 Avensis 5 dr SE at 44700 miles. I'm just 2 months outside my warranty.
I had been experiencing juddering under braking at various speeds and had a free check at a local garage. This consisted of a road test and no measurements were taken. They confirmed that one or both discs were warped (worn) and needed replacing.
I scanned the web for news and one thing I found on some US site was that Toyota discs are maybe not the best in the world - that was just one persons opinion.
After shopping around, I obtained new disks at £34 plus vat each and a set of pads at £20 - total just under £100.
It took about 5 minutes to change a pair of pads and about half an hour per disk - the old ones were well rusted on. It's not a difficult job so you might save a few £££ if you can do it yourself.
The judder has now gone completely so I satisfied myself that the discs definately needed replacing.
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I suspect there may be an explanation.
When was asbestos banned from pads? If his original car was 1991, it may have had asbestos based pads.
Non asbestos pads tend to wear disks more.
madf
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PhilT, If you're still hanging out here, can you remember where you got your cheap discs from? Looks like I'm going to need to fit some soon on my 1998 CDX.
Also, my pads are pretty new - just a bit uneven from light scoring on the old discs. Would it be okay to reuse them with the new discs? My local mechanic said something about "refacing" the pads - can I just sandpaper them on a flat surface?
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Use emery cloth for rubbing down brake shoes or pads.sandpaper will cause problems.ie sand clings to the surface and will cause more wear than you started with.
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I would always use new pads with new discs. If you are planing to keep the car for a while keep the old pads to re-use next time they need changing.
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Kelv
Probably a bit late but if a dealer tells you something needs doing with discs/pads always ask for the disc/pad minimum thickness and the actual thicknesses on the car, also ask for the old brake parts to be left in a plastic bag in the the car, then if you want you can get them checked for if they really needed replacement, and if nothing else it puts the dealer on its guard that you are checking on them!
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I wonder if the "engineer" simply did a visual inspection of the discs. This might well suggest that they are seriously worn because a hefty lip of rust usually forms around the outer edge of the disc and on the face of the disc outboard of the pad rubbing area.
If this rust is chipped off then a better representation of the disc's condition appears. This is not a substitute for measuring it, of course - just a possible explanation for the report you had.
My own experience of disc wear (based on measurements using a micrometer) show that front discs are ready for replacement around 48000 miles - that's for my sort of motoring, of course. MM is, as always, a source of sound and reliable advice.
Ian Cook
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I would seriously doubt the discs are so badly worn after that mileage they need replacing.
Sounds like a "Stealership Con" to me....perhaps they've had a lax month?
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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No comment on the wear of discs/pads, but I do second the "stealership" concern. I recently installed new front discs/pads on my 5 series for a total part cost of 96 pounds (including new disc retaining bolts, wear sensor and large tub of copper grease which will probably last years). It took me an hour to change them in my driveway with a trolley jack and I have never done the brakes on a BMW before. So, I do have to wonder how much labour hours/rate the dealer is charging for an experienced mechanic with proper equipment to do the job.
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I'm always amazed at the short life people expect from brakes these days. My 1993 Volvo disks are original at 294,000 miles, and well within specification. Modern asbestos-free pads last me about 40,000 miles. Something to do with build-quality?
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Hi,
My 2001 1.8VVTi Avensis GS had the brake disks skimmed under warranty at around 25K due to warping causing brake judder. I don't drive the car that hard, but do drive in Milton Keynes. The road system (dual carriageway, roundabout, dual carriageway etc) is tough on brakes. Skimming brakes on Avensis cars isn't exactly an unusual job for the local dealer I took the car to.
Have read on toyotaownersclub.com that there are alternative after-market parts that last longer.
MarkL.
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Having discs skimmed is a bad idea.it weakens the disc and makes them prone to warpage brake fade ie thinner disc cannot cope with copious amounts of water thrown at it distortion occurs.brake fade is where continous braking on say a downward slope the disc is unable to cool fast enough to disperse heat the more heat the less pads are effective.the oem disc will disperse heat fast enough to give effective braking.I doubt whether anyone can say different.but you never know I may be wrong?
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a 5 year old car.. 27,000 miles.
By definition short journeys. Car stopped and left when wheels are wet. Rust build up on disks.
My wife drove her peugeot 106 from new (and still does after 11 years). 4,000 miles a year driven slowly and disks had to be replaced after 5 years due to rust.
I now drive it once a fortnight and thrash engine and disks hard. New ones are now 6 years old and still fine.
Disks are best with regular use. Infrequent light use produces more waer than hard use.
madf
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Actually a 3 year old car... this thread started in 2002.
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My Pug 406 has gone through 10 or 11 replacements or skims in 85K, it has never been cured. The only remedy, I'm told, is to replce with non-Pug parts, additional cost around £110 - but since what they do each time is under 12K/12-month warranty I'm (reasonably) happy to let Peugeot go on paying for their poor design/manufacturing. I know after each replacement pr of discs I will only get around 5-8K before they start to distort again, and less after skimming. Shame, it spoils a really good car (HDi estate). HJ - after your mention of possible pin probs a year or two back I was told by the Peugeot w'shop (Rootes, Maidstone - and I am happy to recommend everything else they have done to the car!) that these always come out anyway so it was unlikely to be the cause. I guess it's just poor quality, simple as that - but it must be costing Peugeot a fortune! (Sorry, I know it's not an Avensis but the cause is likely to be the same.)
CG
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We had a fleet of about 20 Avensis at work from 1998- 2002. Good solid,quiet comfy cars, and fairly reliable.
However the most common reported fault was juddering brakes- about 10 of the cars suffered with this. Mine had the discs reground due to warping after 6 months 9000 miles, and the discs replaced at about 30000 miles- about 20 months. Then another regrind about 40000 miles. I remember having to wait a few days on one occasion because of a national shortage of pads. I dont think that the OE discs were up to the job. I have been told that the previous Carina E had a similar weakness.
The other common problem was with clunky steering- column bushes and lubrication.
Now I drive a ford, it seems to me that the one big difference between Ford drivers and Toyota drivers is brand loyalty- the Ford drivers/owners are far more likely to be vocal in their criticism of their cars than the Toyota drivers / owners who seem to keep their problems to themselves.
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With modern pads being so unforgiving, 30k from a set of discs is not actually that disasterous. Moreover, there is so much traffic now that I'm sure we all do a lot more braking than we did say 10 years ago.
Why not try replacing the toyota discs with an aftermarket set (e.g. Mintex) and see how they go. They are not expensive.
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I had the judder problem quite badly on the Carina E I ran for quite a few years. I went through the usual route of disk skimming etc to no avail, it seemed to cure the problem for a short while but always came back. Until the dealership came up with an alternative set of pads, still genuine Toyota, but supposed to be a fix for brake judder and specified in some technical service bulletin which was supposed to have been sent to all dealers. These pads were of a slightly different compound than the originals, and were the perfect answer to the problem. I never experienced judder from that day on, whether under light, heavy, frequent or infrequent braking. The car now has around 130,000 miles under its belt and still has the original disks, but has gone through about 4 or 5 sets of pads.
I now have an Avensis which has a similar problem, but nowhere near as severe as I experienced on the Carina, suffice to say I find it annoying when it happens, but I've been able to live with it. The Avensis is now, at 27,000 miles, about ready for a new set of pads. I shall see if another compound is available, failing which I shall try a set of aftermarket pads to see if I can regain the perfect feel I eventually got on the Carina.
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