I couldn't possible complain about a system that watches our roads and tracks the movements of drug dealers, billy burglar, tommy terrorist. That would be fine by me if markers where added to registrations on that basis following carefully gained intelligence.
Trouble is, a lot of markers are being added to registrations with very little control or double checking.
That bloke down the road who always says hi to you. You don't know he's the local kiddie fiddler but you can bet your reg plate will attract a marker based on the fact that you have been seen conversing with the ' subject " on several occasions.
The imaginary " Britain for Brits " party hold a meeting in a pub that you just happen to be having a non alcoholic drink in with your good lady one night. A sweep of the car park for reg numbers and you end up on the list of suspected members.
This sort of thing is happening and there is little control over it.
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Can you please refer us to your evidence that the above actually happens, MrX.
And please do not refer us to stories which rely on "hearsay" and "anecdotal" evidence... I would like to see the hard facts...
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I'm telling you it happens as I have personal experience of it. Entirely up to you wether you choose to believe it.
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I'm telling you it happens as I have personal experience of it.
So all the examples you have given are your personal examples... If I had that much trouble with the Police I'd be raising a complaint with someone, MrX. Forgive me if I have difficulty believing you.
The problem I have with your little rants is that you don't give any suggestions on how you would deal with the people ANPR, etc., are designed to pick up... there are 30 million vehicles out there, even if we suddenly got several hundred (or thousand) extra traffic police they would still need some sort of database to be able to check on people they pulled over...
My priority is to get the uninsured/un taxed/banned drivers off the road permamently first, once they are removed then we can start dealing with rubbish driving, but my understanding from previous posts by traffic police is that many of those who do drive badly, have dangerous vehicles and untaxed ones also tend to fall into the catagory I mentioned... ANPR and CCTV is a useful and cost-effective way of helping get them...
So unless you can come up with some suggestions which will actually work if we don't use ANPR then I really can't see what you are moaning about.
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This is the only example I have experience of
'The imaginary " Britain for Brits " party hold a meeting in a pub that you just happen to be having a non alcoholic drink in with your good lady one night. A sweep of the car park for reg numbers and you end up on the list of suspected members. '.
The others are examples that have been documented in the media in recent years. I'm not going to spend my time googling everything to put before your for your approval. This is a place to discuss and chew over, not a court of law where we keep having to dredge up written evidence for every thing posted.
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This is the only example I have experience of
The others are examples that have been documented in the media in recent years.
So those you have quoted on other posts as well as those above are not fact...
Just hearsay or anecdotal...
Scaremongering as usual.
And, I ask again, your method of catching the law breakers without ANPR and CCTV are?...
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So those you have quoted on other posts as well as those above are not fact... Just hearsay or anecdotal... Scaremongering as usual. And I ask again your method of catching the law breakers without ANPR and CCTV are?...
Having a bit of a dig at Mr X, b308. A little unfair IMHO, he gets plenty of stick on here which sometimes borders on bullying.
We have to ask ourselves a question.... how on earth did we ever apprehend any criminals before ANPR and CCTV came along? Good old fashioned police work. Perhaps we need more police on the street and fewer cameras. Who's going to stop a hoody sticking a blade in you? A policeman. A camera won't deter them in the slightest. They like cameras so much they'll film your death on their mobiles and show it to their mates
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Having a bit of a dig at Mr X b308.
how on earth did we ever apprehend any criminals before ANPR and CCTV came along? Good old fashioned police work. Perhaps we need more police on the street and fewer cameras.
Actually, not I'm not, CC, he does plenty of posts where he rants and raves about how our freedoms are being eroded by the use of ANPR and CCTV but when challenged on how he would go about tackling the problems they help prevent goes strangely quiet... I give him the chance to give his solution, but he never takes the opportunity, perhaps because, despite his views, he can see that their use is one of the best ways to tackle it, but with more police resources as well.
As regards the second bit, I agree that we should have more police, but thats not the whole answer, there are many more vehicles around now than the days we remember and there has to be some way of ensuring that the police actually target those who need to be targeted, ANPR and some use of CCTV is a very good way of doing that used in conjunction with more police...
I accept that use of it will have some errors, but unlike him (or her) I am prepared to accept that for the benefits it gives, and stats quoted in other threads show that those errors are in the minority.
Edited by b308 on 23/05/2009 at 19:17
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' freedoms are being eroded by the use of ANPR and CCTV'
I have all ready pointed out I am happy to see the use of ANPR in the detection of crimes and the reduction of motoring offences . What I am not happy with is that there is no room for human input. The ANPR was born of a need to tackle terrorism on these shores and developed further to sort out motoring offences. This was all most a by product if you like.
In an ideal situation, ANPR would be collecting info purely on criminals and terrorists and aiding their detection and conviction. Truth is, it is not just doing that but is being used as a tool to build up profiles on each and every one who has a vehicle registered to their names.
How long do you think it will be before it is not a ' registered keeper " but a ' registered user " that must be logged.
Company cars provide a loop hole at the moment because they just refer the ANPR back to the leasing company or a business name with out naming a driver.
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In an ideal situation ANPR would be collecting info purely on criminals and terrorists and aiding their detection and conviction. Truth is it is not just doing that but is being used as a tool to build up profiles on each and every one who has a vehicle registered to their names.
Here we go again... a sensible post that is spoilt by that comment, you really are paranoid... as yet I haven't seen anything to say that it has been used to track and record ordinary citizens like you or I... it may have been used to track "possible" suspects, but that was done before ANPR by the security services, its nothing new, just better use of technology... again that is something that those who fight the criminals and terrorists have been doing for years...
BTW I don't understand your reference to "human input" in the 2nd para... could you explain?
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'as yet I haven't seen anything to say that it has been used to track and record ordinary citizens like you or I'
From the BBC prog review
'John Catt found himself on the wrong side of the ANPR system. He regularly attends anti-war demonstrations outside a factory in Brighton, his home town.
It was at one of these protests that Sussex police put a "marker" on his car. That meant he was added to a "hotlist".
This is a system meant for criminals but John Catt has not been convicted of anything and on a trip to London, the pensioner found himself pulled over by an anti-terror unit.
"I was threatened under the Terrorist Act. I had to answer every question they put to me, and if there were any questions I would refuse to answer, I would be arrested. I thought to myself, what kind of world are we living in?"
Sussex police would not talk about the case.'
He holds a political viewpoint - does that stop him from being an 'ordinary citizen '
He won't be the only one on the system for such beliefs. Pro hunt supporters went through the same thing.
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Ok, so it can be misused... again thats nothing new... its been happening for years, just now we can get to know about it and can then do something to highlight the issue and get things chjanged - the misuse of that act by Local Councils snooping springs to mind... so pluses and minuses... be honest about it, MrX, these sorts of things have been going on for years, this is not a new issue, the main thing is making sure that the info gained is not misused... programmes like this will only help in ensuring info is not misused.
After all this debate on something none of us have seen it will be interesting to see the programme iteslf!!
And your answer to the "human input" reference?
Edited by b308 on 24/05/2009 at 12:17
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Been over that many times but for the FINAL time... You are standing there with all your docs, MOT, Ins, Tax Disc, Licence . The computer says No Ins but the human who is operating the ANPR computer will not input the evidence of their own eyes, preferring to believe the computer instead. Off goes car on the lowloader for you to reclaim next day. It has happened, it is happening, it will continue to happen.
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Been over that many times but for the FINAL time...
Now now, no need to get shirty! ;)
I think that the police have said before on other threads that they CAN decide not to have the car taken away... but its a well known fact that things like Insurance Certs are very easy to forge... so they take each one as it comes... sometimes they get it wrong, more often than not they don't...
I doubt they'll ever have 100% accuracy so we have to make the decission either to use it knowing some of it could be wrong or stop using it altogether... I'd rather they make the odd mistake, but get the majority right and remove many illegal drivers than just stop using it altogether.... I gather you take the opposite view.
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'sometimes they get it wrong, more often than not they don't...
We'll never now the true figures because following a F.O.I act request re this very subject, 6 forces claimed not to have kept such figures. Quite amazing really when you think ' figures and percentages " are the life blood of such organisations.
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6 forces claimed not to have kept such figures. Quite amazing really when you think ' figures and percentages " are the life blood of such organisations.
That to me stinks of the old 'No Comment!'
I cannot, and will not, (unless it can be proven) for one second believe that those facts are not recorded.
When we are told that kind of thing, 2 things come to mind....
1/ why are the facts not recorded?
2/ am I standing in a cow field? (think about it ;-) )
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Mr X you have a very active mind perhaps too active!!
If its means me or my family can live a little bit more safely I do not care who watches who !
I think you do not understand the only way to fight crime in a most cost affective way is to monitor the movements of the less desirable members of our society .
I am afraid we cannot police with methods that are more appropriate to the fifties and sixties era
You have nothing to fear if you abide by the law as 99% of the population do
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Have you read this thread and it's links from start to finish ?
So being against War is a crime ?
So being against the present Govt is a crime ?
So supporting the local animal rescue center is a crime ?
So not wanting an Airport run way extension is a crime?
For these are all things that can get your vehicle registration a marker that will make an ANPR camera react when you drive past it and result with a pull from Plod and perhaps a complete examination of your vehicle, not once but time and time again.
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Do you have some sort of persecution complex!! Supporting an animal rescue centre ???
Do you mean campaigning against animal research ???
With comments like that you maybe should be working for the BBC
Its a pity no such system was available in Portugal 2 years ago
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As the old saying goes, just because Mr X is paranoid, it doesn't mean they are not out to get him!
Also, I take great exception to someone stating that someone is an "old dear in her 40's" I'd stick a marker on ANPR just for that remark alone.
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It's all very well this CCTV monitoring database nothing to hide nothing to fear malarky.
As long as information doesn't fall into the wrong hands- laptops left unattended in parked cars, left on buses, computer discs lost in the post, personal files left on rubbish tips.
That would never happen though would it
It's not as if the country is being run by ClownsRus is it?
Edited by captain chaos on 23/05/2009 at 16:53
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If you don't have something to hide and something to fear, you are probably rather boring.
That said, I don't mind being under constant surveillance in those grainy, dreamy cctv records of people going about their business. The foreshortening effect from camera position and the poor resolution make everyone look as if they are slinking about with some mischief in mind.
ANPR is another matter though, if your car documents are a day or so out of date. You can get a 60 quid penalty for not having that MoT you keep meaning to get done... And as for the way councils use cropped cctv images to try to pick your pocket on the basis of alleged parking or bus lane offences, er, don't get me started.
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It's not just cameras following you.
Every phone call you make is logged.
Every email you send is logged.
Every website you visit is logged.
Every time you leave the country and return, you are logged.
So who is being paranoid, the loggers or the logged?
So the little old lady cat lover, who parks her car near near the butchers is logged, and then they check her emails, then check the websites she visits, her phone calls, etc etc.
Was told years ago by someone in "government" not to use expressions like " put a bomb under the solicitors to get them moving ". "I could kill him - referring to the builder who let you down" as keywords were being listened for and recorded.
Something is not quite right !
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As a computer dunce, even I can believe that there is software that can react to "key words" in recorded info.
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ON, I am sure you are right. I am not prepared to try it and it may be an urban myth. It has been suggested that one should start sending out a few e mails with terrorist related words in them and see how long it takes before an unmarked car is outside your house. The US NSA listening post at Menwith Hill (on the delightfully named Blubberhouses Moor near Harrogate) has 400,000 BT phone lines in it, for a good starter!
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 23/05/2009 at 18:23
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I already have a long white beard. I`m going to get dark, reactive lenses too. Iris scanning is the thing to worry about. Best not to carry pineapple rings around in see through packs.
Could be held for murder if six irises go missing - a little at a time.
And don`t even look at fruitcakes.......
;-)
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I was wrong about the phone lines - there are only 100,000 but that was 5 years ago.
www.ayup.co.uk/shuttup/shuttup1-0.html
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The conspiracy theories and hard facts regarding what is going to happen around us blatantly or covertly are by no means, exhaustable.
You are just feeding each others paranoia - go to the pub, chill out with your mates, have a few beers and forget about it as it is here to stay and there is nothing at all you can do about it anyway.
It is called progress and like it or not, you are part of it.
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Well if we can't do anything about it we have wasted a lot of time and effort, lives and money fighting 2 World Wars for peace, freedom and democracy! If I wanted to live in a surveillance state I'd have gone to East Germany in the 50s but I am too late. Now I needn't move, we have it all delightfully set up in our Green and Pleasant land right here!
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The Official Secrets Act beats freedom of information every time. I am amazed the MPs expenses were not covered by the OSA.
Im off for my tea!
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Well said A.S.
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Once upon a time, someone came up with a great idea. The speed camera. Now they can make the world a safer place. It would be used for the greater good and no one but criminals would complain.
Today, why is that mobile speed van always parking in places where there is no history of accidents? In a place where you only see him at the last moment? Where even the most disciplined of drivers accidently drift over the limit a few mph?
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Targets - Police forced to do it. I bet most would prefer to focus on dangerous driving.
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Tut Tut oilrag - we no longer have targets! They are now know as Performance Indicators!
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
The lack of regulation, very real risk of political interference, and, yet again, NO WRITTEN CONSTITUTION, is what makes the onward march of surveillance so worrying. The German constitutional court banned ANPR as an intrusion into private citizens' rights. Speeding fines with photo of the driver are not now sent to the driver's home after a number of cases of errant husbands and female passengers being caught on camera. Again, constitutional court intervenes if there is one. (Don't tell me that the crime/clearup rates are significantly higher in Germany than in the UK and that we're better off with ANPR and CCTV; I simply don't believe it.)
One bad apple in a CCTV monitoring station, just like one bad apple behind a computer anywhere, can wreak havoc with the life of an innocent citizen. Go fishing with a fine mesh net and the big fish bust through whilst millions of innocent little fish get caught. The motorist locked up while a "wrong shade of green" MOT certificate was investigated was one clear example. (What if he'd died of a heart attack whilst in custody??)
Something about sledgehammers and walnuts....
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Good point . To add to it, we will have the fittest drug dealers, burglars and terrorists in the UK as they ditch the car and take their chances of dodging CCTV instead via foot or bicycle.
ANPR is firstly a surveillance tool and a crime fighting tool as a secondary add on.
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as they ditch the car and take their chances ofdodging CCTV instead via foot or bicycle.
Naw.. they will take the easy route, as many do now... use stolen cars, cloned to look legit.
crims are not as stupid as many think they are, many are only caught when they get over confident.
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I wouldn't mind all the surveillance if it produced something useful.
This link tinyurl.com/ryesxu takes you to the explanation on the MI5 website about why they were unable to stop the 7/7 2005 bombings.
What intrigues me is that they knew in 2004 that two of the plotters were also considering fraud. As far as I can tell, that information was not passed to the police in those terms.
Had the police begun an investigation into fraud, events might have taken another turn.
Edited by Optimist on 23/05/2009 at 22:45
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The security services were so stretched that they didn't pick up on the 7/7 bombers. What on earth makes anyone here think that they are going to pick up on someone sitting outside a butchers shop?
Let's be a bit more forensic. I have never read so much drivel in a long, long time as I have read here.
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It's not as if the country is being run by ClownsRus is it?
ClownsRthem if you don't mind!
Broadly agree with Mr X here.
MD
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I like to think I'm a fairly rational chap, and if ANPR really was just used proportionately, I would have no problem with it.
What does bother me is the previous record on such things. I'm thinking specifically here about the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA). The power to use this Act and the tools within it should never have been extended to anyone beyond law enforcement and security services, as it contains some seriously invasive and intrusive provisions. That these can now be used by so many other lower level organisations with minimum supervision and for trivial reasons is nothing short of a disgrace.
Same with DVLA data, now available to anyone willing to pay the £2.50 for our details to use under the auspices of running a private parking contractor, despite the fact that their activities are, at best, a legal grey area.
So my concern is that it's introduced under the banner of fighting serious crime, but that it swiftly gets appropriated for more trivial measures or the data gets made available to any organisation willing to pay.
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I thought it - you said it.
RIPA - used to check people lived in a schools catchment area. Documented fact and story carried in papers other than the Daily Mail.
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Like CCTV which was installed for 'crime prevention and detection' (which we all thought meant catching muggers and other violent types) which is now frequently used for minor traffic offences like bus-lane enforcement.
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History shows, if the systems exist, they WILL get used, and abused.
That I think sums it up.
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....What does bother me is the previous record on such things. I'm thinking specifically here about the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA). The power to use this Act and the tools within it should never have been extended to anyone beyond law enforcement and security services, as it contains some seriously invasive and intrusive provisions. That these can now be used by so many other lower level organisations with minimum supervision and for trivial reasons is nothing short of a disgrace......
This sums up the problem and the risk for the future perfectly. The thought that some council halfwit can spy on members of the public for overfilling their bin is enough to make you want to leave the country.
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That was the act I was thinking about, Bazza, thanks! Haven't they now stopped them using it for those purposes?
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In some areas you can get a £100+ fine for overfilling your bin and/or putting it out on the wrong day but only get a caution for carrying a bladed weapon in public!
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one of the reasons why i'd be seriously miffed if i had to give up my DNA...not because there's the slightest chance i'd ever be a suspect for a crime...but because one day someone will throw an apple core out of a car window thinking 'the birds can have that'
.... and some jobsworth will seize it, bag it, have it sent to a Lab and the 'offender' will be prosecuted by FPN, via the post
and I don't want it to be me
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Westpig.... it wouldnt surprise me if 'they' already had your DNA.....
Think back, have you ever handed back part of your uniform, or left something in you locker?
maybe left a hair in your work vehicle?
that may sound far fetched... BUT..................
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SQthat may sound far fetched... BUT..................
Far from far fetched. Wouldn't you keep it if you were the Grey men. An orroprtunity not to be missed I would have thought.
I have kept details of every Estimate I have ever done regardless of whether I got the job or not. You'd be quite surprised just how useful that can be, not in any bad sense, but useful none the less..MD
To DD. left all message in. Thought it was pertinent this time. M
{Martin, your message immediately followed Swiss Tony's, so it really wasn't necessary to quote all the message as people only had to look one post up for the full text}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 25/05/2009 at 01:53
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when do these grey men come in?....are they disguised as the cleaner? are my colleagues secretly spying on me? Maybe it's my wife? The woman in the canteen looks at me funny sometimes, hmmm.
this reminds me of some of the conversations I had after Princess Diana died. One family member is absolutely convinced she was bumped off. Whereas i think if you were intent on killing someone that high profile, you wouldn't wait until she got into one of the world's safest vehicles and then try to see it off the road, in a city, with a small Fiat!
What's wrong with contaminated fuel in a helicopter or a Smersh type frogman when she was out swimming...no imagination some people
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RIPA - used to check people lived in a schools catchment area. Documented fact and story carried in papers other than the Daily Mail.
Sounds so trivial doesn't it. Until your second child cannot get into the same school as her brother because places have been taken by kids whose parents lied about their address.
A lot of the fuss about RIPA makes it sound as if the act introduced all the various surveillance techniques. Surely the key word is Regulation and it is actually about codifying the use of methods already existing and deployed.
Having said that I'm no apologist for all this watching and logging - some of the guilt by association stuff is truly frightening.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 24/05/2009 at 13:23
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You want trivial... try the poor bloke who SORNED his vehicle and stuck it on his drive. Unfortunately the rear stuck out by six inches and on to the public highway. You've guessed it - fined for having an untaxed vehicle on the road.
tinyurl.com/r678e6
Great Britain.... Petty Britain more like it.
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Council uses RIPA powers to check on time employees spend in ablutions, for 3 months!
tinyurl.com/q4woew
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AS, that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. RIPA did not create the means to watch when and for how long the guy went to the showers - but it did mean that the process was authorised at an appropriate level and recorded.
As a junior managers twenty years ago I was told to record how long people spent away from their desks and investigate. Most were on legit business with finance or admin, others were gossiping and gently reminded to go back to their desks.
One was in the Cock Tavern downing his third pint!! We didn't think about fraud he just got a rollicking - but that was before the public service had reconciled itself to sacking people.
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For those who don't understand the system of markers against registrations, best to read this.
tinyurl.com/ozofh2
Now the names and addresses collected will be checked against records at Swansea and a marker placed against the relevant vehicle registrations. Next time one of those objectors is driving past an ANPR device near an airport, it will ping. The marker will suggest the vehicle is of interest if seen near airports as it may be being used by an anti airport person.
Now there's a good chance that the people opposing the runway extension are those who live near it and will have to drive past the airport daily.
" nothing to fear if you have done nothing wrong " ?
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Nothing new there then, just more efficient ways of collecting the data...
Surely you don't believe this never happenned before, MrX... you really ought to read other papers than the daily wail, you know!
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Surely you don't believe this never happenned before MrX... you really ought to read other
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>quote
Last night, Liberal Democrat transport spokesman Norman Baker warned that the activities of the DfT's supposedly non-partisan civil servants were another step towards a 'Stasi-like police state'. unquote
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>>>>>>>> i think you will find b308 that its only papers like the wail that would report things like this plus the DT,lets put it this way how, many papers turned down the scandal of the century before the DT stood up to be counted,if you have followed this story albeit only in the saturday editions you would note that many other papers either shied away from the issue or only wanted sensationalistic titbits
personally i applaud mrx for finding these things even if he does work for the wail
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Don't think he works for them at all, just thats the only paper he seems to read from his links...
I tend to read most of the papers and therefore get the same story from many different angles... and the others are just as good at reporting this sort of thing (the DT and MPs springs to mind)... but the problem I have with many of them, and the wail in particular is that they tend to exagerate or change things to make a "good" story... therefore I don't believe everything I read... and its also noticable that some papers (perhaps some posters as well?!) do things to further their own agenda which also leads to distortion of the truth.
Tracking vehicles happens, and sometimes for the wrong reasons, but to make out, as some have done that it is something "new" and only happens because of ANPR is wrong... its always gone on.
Misuse of any system I am against, but having said that with the growing numbers of vehicles we have to have a better way of picking up those illegal drivers as well, and I feel ANPR is good for that purpose... It is up to us and the press in general to keep highlighting misuses so that sort of activity is curbed as much as possible, but in the meantime use of ANPR and other similar by the Police to catch illegal drivers should not be stopped just because some Gov department misuses the info.
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Have you too noticed an increase of ANPRS activity and camera installations in your area as I have over the last months?
Here is the answer as to why:
Source BBC news: tiny.cc/aC0lw
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Of course 'reg marking " went on before ANPR but because it was manpower related, only vital 'reg marking " went on, ie, terrorists, big players in the drugs world, organised crime members. persistent disqualified drivers and insurance dodgers.
Now this new technology means that a far greater number of registrations can be marked, sweeping in the likes of people who complain about govt projects such as run way extensions or those who disagree with govt policies on immigration or people who have simply registered an opinion on the war front.
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OK, but can we install our own cameras to watch the watchers? After all they have nothing to hide and thus nothing to fear have they!?
I would have cameras in Parliament select committee meetings, in their bars, at Freemason temples, at Bilderberger meetings, at Common Purpose meetings, as the Good Club meetings, and I would also track their every move to see who they convene with. But of course, take even a picture of them on your phone and you will be arrested under 'terrorism' powers.
Edited by Hamsafar on 25/05/2009 at 14:45
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Although I am not one of those who are paranoid about cameras, or not yet anyway, there is an anomaly in this area that is iniquitous and needs to be addressed.
While open police photography of peace demonstrators and the like (along with demonstrators of a more provocative and sinister sort) is said to be in everyone's interests, there is a new piece of legislation that appears to forbid photographing the police in the execution of their duty. Seems to me to be asking everyone to aim cameras and mobile phones at every copper they see, just to show what they think of this totalitarian rubbish.
The old bill have never been all that keen on amateur paparazzi. One carnival some years ago squads of riot-equipped rozzers were doing crowd control manoeuvres on my block after dark. Everyone could see that the manoeuvres were themselves provocative and had no other purpose (this used to happen all the time at carnival, and has now started to happen again). Being pretty well lubricated by that time I went out with a flash camera - film in those days - to record them. They shone powerful lights at me and eventually one detached himself from the line and chased me about as the neighbours cheered from their balconies and doorsteps (not sure why they were cheering though). My wife and daughter then came out of the house so I stopped evading plod who surrounded us, and then allowed my wife and daughter to 'take him inside, madam'. Most embarrassing. I gave them such a scolding for putting their lives at risk and making me look a wally...
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Tougher sentences for knife crime, that's what I say. CCTV might identify the offending hoody/ned/chav but it wont deter him/her from offending in the first place. 10 years hard labour, that should sort 'em out!
On the business of speed cameras, a crude and ineffective subsitute for personal responsibility. Unfortunately as few take any responsibility for their actions on the road these days, such devices are deemed desireable. Therein lies the problem, more regulation and surveillence = less need for individual responsibility = more need for surveillence thus perpetuating the viscious cycle towards a police state.
PS. Why isn't the spell checker working, some kind of intelligence test? :-)
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Have all you 'Paranoid Peters' geared yourselves up, tins of beer, your nibbles in hand, comfy chair adjusted, curtains drawn, lights off to make it look like you are out, car in the garage, phone on silent, silver foil on your head to stop your brain being scanned with pen and paper at the ready to take notes and you now await in most eager anticipation; this evening?s big show then?!
Oh you are watching Ashes to Ashes too?
Twitter twitter twitter - the same carp posted by the same people all of the time.
6 - 12 months ago this used to be a room of discussions with meaning - now it is just the few, closing doors on the rest.
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Actually I think we're going to watch 'How the celts saved the universe' or something of that sort on bbbbbbbcccc44444..... force majeure my dyeure....
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It looks like the usual BBC rubbish. Superficial and patronising and aimed out mesmerised idiots with a mental age of thirteen and a half.
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There is only one question I want answering
Who decides who watches who and why ?
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It's a pyramid structure. The people on the lower levels of the pyramid don't see the full picture, only the people above them have the oversight.
When people are interviewed on this programme, it is obvious to my trained ear that there has been a fair bit of mid-sentence cutting and splicing.
Not a very good programme at all.
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Just to make it absolutely clear, the only aspect of this whole surveillance set up that I take real issue with is the motoring side, ie ANPR. This infra structure that has cost millions and involves some of the latest technology, has not been put in place just to weed out a few MOT dodgers or insurance non payers. It is not even geared wholly towards people carrying out criminal acts, it has been put in place to monitor each and every person who drives a motor vehicle on the basis that the ability to prevent those driving from place to place to express a non violent political viewpoint can be controlled by the police of this country.
I very much doubt the Police want to carry out that side of it but they are the puppets, not the puppet masters. They are only obeying orders.
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Well, I took tron's advice and got my head well swathed in the old silver foil before I switched the telly on. For greater protection I've taken to placing several layers of foil beneath my feet also.
The programme was actually pretty inoffensive. As far as cars go the bit that was mentioned several times, and does bother me, is that when you are picked up on an ANPR camera as you go about your innocent and entirely legal business, the info relating to date time and location is held for two years. Nobody appeared to justify or explain this. It's just a fact.
So, tron, your precautions with the silver foil aren't as silly as you obviously thought they were.
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When is the next level of ANPR being implemented?
Comparing registrations detected and determining a vehicle cannot have travelled from detection site A and detection site B in that time so there is a clone.
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Comparing registrations detected and determining a vehicle cannot have travelled from detection site A and detection site B in that time so there is a clone.
OR you were speeding my boy!
MD
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> OR you were speeding my boy!
I think he means as in 2 citys 300 miles apart within 2 hours or less (i know many cars can do 150mph but average? that is a bit far fetched, and if they have they should be brought up for dangerous driving anyway...)
Edited by Pizza man on 26/05/2009 at 13:12
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If the law can't distinguish the difference between a potential bomber and a peace protester, then we are in real trouble.
With out any evidence that the peace protest group are likely to be involved in acts of violence, why monitor them ?
Interestingly, the 7/7 bombers left their cars outside of london and avoided the ANPR system in the city center, thus flying under the radar.
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If the law can't distinguish the difference between a potential bomber and a peace protester then we are in real trouble.
With out any evidence that the peace protest group are likely to be involved in acts of violence why monitor them ?
No, they have to get the evidence to back up their suspisions... that, logically, would mean that there is a very good chance that they'd monitor other, innocent people/vehicles initially until they were eliminated from their enquiries... Looking back it seems that many terrorists have used their membership of peace protestor organisations as a cover for their activities so there is a logic to check all of them initially... though once eliminated the tagging should be dropped - and I agree with your previous post, MrX, its misuse of ANPR that I have an issue with as well, though I think we differ on our definition of "misuse"! ;)
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Damn! Forgot to cover my feet!
Does that mean I have been had then?
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About as hard-hitting as a wet tissue.
Very poor.
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My major concern was that a person with no criminal record (?) and not being charged with and not having committed any crime can be 'flagged up' and then harassed and threatened simply for being somewhere, lawfully, in his car/van. I would have thought that a man, known only to the authorities as a person wanting peace and demonstrating to that effect, isn't very likely to be involved in terrorism. Of course, I don't have all the facts but from what I can see it looks pretty oppressive and inapproriate. See my earlier post re RIPA and time spent in the ablutions!
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Though obviously that depends on them having a mobile phone account and not using new SIM cards every day.
As an aside I think that the phone can still be traced via it's IMIE number regardless of a sim change. Stand to be corrected though.
MD
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Had ANPR been working to the extent it is today then it would have been able to monitor the bomber's vehicles if they had been 'marked'. >>
HJ, MI5 were actually listening to two of the 7/7 bombers and passed info to Yorkshire Police. But since no-one did anything about it, as far as I can tell, the plots went ahead.
Collecting loads of info about all of us is utterly pointless unless someone knows how it can be effectively used. It seems to me that collecting info is just a substitute for actually doing something.
On the programme last night, the absurd Jacqui Smith didn't know that ANPR info isn't regulated by the Information Commissioner. So who does regulate it? What is the point of keeping it for two years?
The argument that if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear, just doesn't wash. What's the justification for keeping the info?
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From govt report in to 7/7
tinyurl.com/p9zol7
'25 May 2004
The MPS provide MI5 with a summary ?cluster? of intelligence found on the Honda Civic (R480 CCA), which confirms ?Hasina PATEL? as the registered owner in 2003.74 Her address is given as REMOVED, and the cluster also confirms her date of birth as 23 November 1977. It also shows that the new keeper of the car is ?Sidique KHAN? of REMOVED and provides his date of birth (20 October 1974) and previous addresses as REMOVED and REMOVED. This cluster also shows that there was no Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) trace for the Honda Civic on 3 March 2004, but that ?the details have since been entered on Operation WEDGE?. (The ANPR system enables police units to identify vehicles from registration plates, and is used when the vehicle is suspected of involvement in crime or where intelligence is needed on the vehicle. The details of the Honda Civic are not added to the WEDGE counter-terrorism database, contrary to the cluster message.)'
So in this case, no marker had been placed on the vehicle but ANPR was operating but not on the scale it is now.
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