>>If you don't like the rules, either contact your MP or petition the Prime Minister online. Do something positive instead of just whinging.
Rules? What rules? Where's the rule that says 'don't check it properly, just lock him up'?
Of what possible interest to an MP or the PM could incompetent local officilas be? The man has done something about it - he's got the story in the Daily Mail where we can all see it.
I really don't understand the urge to kick the victim which seems to be a BR trend.
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The on-line service is not necessarily accurate.
Two weeks ago my car failed its MOT. I was at work, and I logged in to see the result. It was a fail, with a list of faults.
When I got home and got the paper slip, it listed a different fault. The ones posted online were from a different car.
All now corrected, so there is no evidence that it ever happened. I nearly bought some parts I didn't need.
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I really don't understand the urge to kick the victim which seems to be a BR trend.
Well, I really don't understand the urge to whinge instead of doing something positive, which seems to be a BR trend.
Edited by L'escargot on 21/05/2009 at 10:12
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Due to the serious issues I had with AMS of Grimsby (now trading as Think Green Cars) I now only and ALWAYS use the local council run Hackney carriage/goods/VOSA approved and certified MOT testing station.
No hassles at all.
With no, 'oh you need or you are going to in the very near future x, y or z doing' as they have no commercial interest or means to do, in any work at all that may need doing.
Just vehicle in the bay, connect it up to the system, up on the ramps, a tug, pull, 'cough and drop for the emissions? inspect the vehicle and you get it back with a direct yes or no/pass or fail.
Service has to be seen as good locally because booking in advance and a good few months too; is the only way to get your vehicle in there.
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if you suspect an MOT certificate is a forgery and you have a 'suspect' with you...then you are not likely to do protracted enquiries in the street or in the DVLA office...where a real crook could punch you on the nose and have it on his toes...or, all his mates turn up and your nose is the target again...or he wants to go to the loo and you won't let him....or he desperately need his medication...or you're embarrassing him in front of his neighbours/friends...or he hasn't been searched properly and you're losing evidence....etc, etc
simple, quick enquiry...yes do it in the street/office.....more than that, do it back at the station. The MOT database could easily be a quick check, but what happens if the problem is deeper than that e.g. someone at a garage is up to no good or someone has duplicated a real one, the MOT database won't help you. An arrest power should be used sparingly...however if people in a DVLA local office think it's a forgery and they're handling the things daily, then that's a reasonable starter for 10 isn't it.
Mistakes are made...and there's no reason why an apologoy couldn't be given, when they are...however this case is not one of unlawful arrest, there was a reasonable suspicion the chap may have committed an offence, it was investigated in fairly quick time (3 hours) and established that he didn't....happens all the time.
Shami Chakrabati's input was on the retention of DNA, not the lawfulness or necessity of arrest...and i'm sure she would have said something if she thought that was amiss.
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the way forward would be to check if the mot was valid and corrosponds to the vehicle being taxed
if these things match then the next thing is to contact vosa with a view to check the garage out,not the man with the mot as you know where he lives anyway
i can walk into most mot stations now and pick up a handfull of blank mot certificates if i so wished and put them through my petite typewriter
the effort is in the detail of using the facilities at your disposal not arresting innocent parties
heres a thought for anyone else,the mot was probably a slight faded green as it had been sat on top of the garages pile all bank holiday and the arrested man got this as the first mot of the day the following tuesday
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not the man with the mot as you know where he lives anyway
how?
that's the problem...you don't necessarily. Mr Lawful, yes. Mr Unlawful, no. Trouble is Mr Unlawful will have documentation on him that makes him look like Mr Lawful. You'd be amazed how many vehicles are registered to completely ficticious addresses. Working out what a real driving licence and what a forged one are are most difficult, because they keep changing the real ones and the forgeries can be of a very high standard indeed.
It's probably not so good to be so damned suspicious all the time..but that's what the public pay you for.
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>>i can walk into most mot stations now and pick up a handfull of blank mot
>>certificates if i so wished...
It's not my area of work, but I understood the nice man from VOSA is in the business of removing MOT certification from places he finds an unattended open safe (or the safe keys in plain view) with the MOT blanks inside, or the blanks lying about, when he does one of the "unannounced" visits.
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SQ
I understood the nice man from VOSA is in the business of removing MOT certification from places he finds an unattended open safe (or the safe keys in plain view) with the MOT blanks inside or the blanks lying about when he does one of the "unannounced" visits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
if you go into an mot station they all have the blank forms in a siemens provided A4 inbox type container so i dont think you use the safes anymore
im willing to be told different mind (fact based as i cant find anything relevant ont tinternet)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 21/05/2009 at 22:14
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>> It's not my area of work but I understood the nice man from VOSA
No such thing :-(
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Where talking about a possible forged MOT cert here... not a kiddie fiddler, a rapist, a suspected terrorist armed to the teeth.
What is it with this country that sees a motoring offence re a bit of paper as some sort of major crime ?
'where a real crook could punch you on the nose and have it on his toes..." what forgotten your tsar, pepper spray, extending baton .
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'where a real crook could punch you on the nose and have it on his toes..." what forgotten your tsar pepper spray extending baton .
Very good Mr X,
1, You aim to minimise the chance of assault, by planning ahead...not wait for it to happen, then deal with it
2, Your helpful option doesn't deal with the apprehension of the potential offender, which when you're wearing a bullet/knife resistant vest; radio; utility belt with: metal extendable baton, handcuffs, torch, gloves pouch, report book pouch, etc....then you're unlikely to win the 200m sprint
so you 'book early'
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When you're wearing a bullet/knife resistant vest; radio; utility belt with: metal extendable baton handcuffs torch gloves pouch report book pouch etc....then you're unlikely to win the 200m sprint
If the 'soft touch' brigade hadn't hijacked this country 25 years ago you guys wouldn't need all the paraphernalia that makes you look like the Michelin man and makes you unable to do your job as it was intended. Much be soo uncomfortable in a car methinks.
Nothing personal WP. I actually enjoy your posts. Well balanced unlike your clobber!!
Morning all.........couldn't sleep........MD
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Well I really don't understand the urge to whinge instead of doing something positive which seems to be a BR trend.
>>>>>>>>> Seems to me if you were in a cell with no shoelaces,no one on the outside batting for your innocence then you might take a more open aspect on this case of disgusting civil liberites (you would probably be the loudest whinger anyway)
I am in the dvla office at least once a month,i can tell you now escargot i for one would want flesh if i was locked up when as rattle points out it is a 15 second click to see if there is an mot on a vehicle,the person that called the police and their supervosor want sacking
i can only say im glad that dvla place isnt the one i use thankfully but then again the two i do use would have more sense than those worthlerss idiots
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The moral of the story is do your tax disc online. That way no-one can see the colour of the certificate.
I'm still amazed that a DVLA office could not confirm the validity of the certificate without having the guy locked up.
The DVLA should have certificates with some kind of anti-fraud marker - not hard these days. There's one on every £5/£10/£20/£50 in circulation, and a bent MoT is worth more than any of these...
Edited by oldnotbold on 21/05/2009 at 11:17
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so the dvla cant access vosa information then
that is why the man was arrested
took some thinking about
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It would be very easy to print each blank MoT certificate with an ID no. and bar code. The testing station inputs the ID no. on issue, and the certificate is then printed with a test number that is linked (by a clever algorithm) to the cert. number, which gives a total check on the certificate.
The issue of the test number can even be date stamped (inside the number, using the same clever algorithm) so that only that certificate issued at that time could possibly have that test number.
I'll suggest it to VOSA....
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Surely the bit of paper is redundant as far as taxing, insuring a vehicle is concerned as it is all stored on a computer the minute it is tested. I base that on the fact you can tax on line with out the cert being seen.
On that basis, it wouldn't matter if the victim had turned up with a crisp packet, a check on the reg and DVLA could have issued a tax disc. So why the fuss over the cert in the first place ?
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"Surely the bit of paper is redundant as far as taxing, insuring a vehicle is concerned as it is all stored on a computer the minute it is tested. I base that on the fact you can tax on line with out the cert being seen. "
Indeed - there's an argument for doing away with them, as then there is nothing to forge. The only possible need is when selling a car, so that the seller/buyer does not have to go online, but that could be done by mobile phone using an interactive voice response system.
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I think I know where Mr X works and what he does for a living. He is a journo for the Daily Mail clearly I can see his style in the "report"
He was then ordered to empty his pockets and remove his shoes before being thrown into a cell where he remained for the next three hours.
whereas the truth was that
'I know the police were only doing their jobs and they were very civil,
Alas Mr X has missed the point. The fact that any one arrested for anything - however trivial - with no further action because they are clearly innocent, now has thier DNA stored on a central database. That, frankly, is the biggest scandal perpetrated on its citizens by the state and is a very short step away from DNA stored for a FPN (like speeding or parking) or even taken and stored at at birth.
Edited by Altea Ego on 21/05/2009 at 12:45
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I do love the Mail. The 'thrown' into a cell bit is superb 'reporting'.
Mr X (And I'm making a valid point before the 'bullying' theme raises it's head) you said
"Where talking about a possible forged MOT cert here... not a kiddie fiddler, a rapist, a suspected terrorist armed to the teeth.
What is it with this country that sees a motoring offence re a bit of paper as some sort of major crime ?"
Have you ever stopped to look at the possible bigger picture. Have you ever thought about car ringing. Man turns up with 'valid' MOT and insurance to tax car registration 'ABC 123'. But it's not actually ABC 123, it's a stolen car with a false identity. A check of a computer would show the car to be legitimately insured and MOT'd. But said man hasn't got the original documents because the car is cloned, so he forges the certificates to obtain tax. He then sells the cloned car to some poor, unsuspecting buyer.
It's called investigation. It's a thing Police Officers tend to do now and again. It's why our jails are full to overflowing. The investigation in this case revealed him to be innocent. WestPig has replied as to why it can't be done at the counter.
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Surely your savy cloner would use the on line service rather than show up at the counter ?
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Mr X - if criminals were that clever they wouldn't get caught.
I wish I could sell tins of hindsight.
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I wish I could sell tins of hindsight.
Two dozen please. Can you deliver tomorrow?
Martin.
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It's a pity the police didn't take a similar approach when I reported the MOT on a car I'd just bought had the mileage altered.
They just weren't interested, said report it to Trading Standards, if they want to pursue it, then they'll issue a crime number.
I re-interated that this was a case of obtaining money by deception, again they just referred me to Trading Standards.
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Do people who innocently present counterfeit £20 notes or £1 coins also risk arrest?
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Do people who innocently present counterfeit £20 notes or £1 coins also risk arrest?
might do....depends on a whole host of things, that i'm not going into on here....would need some digging, because an enormous amount of innocent people end up with the things
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"Do people who innocently present counterfeit £20 notes or £1 coins also risk arrest? "
Yes, because until it's investigated, who says they are innocent?
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I took the previous day's takings into the bank last week and the cashier queried one of the notes. It passed the pen test, but turned out to be counterfeit after checking with UV.
It never occured to me I was risking being hauled off to jail. I certainly won't volunteer any more for checking, just pass them on quick.
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"Do people who innocently present counterfeit £20 notes or £1 coins also risk arrest? " Yes because until it's investigated who says they are innocent?
You mean criminals sometimes pretend they are innocent? But that would mean that the Police might have to inconvenience people in their efforts to work out who really is innocent.
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Some questions for the following:
midlifecrisis: >> A check of a computer would show the car to be legitimately insured and MOT'd. But said man hasn't got the original documents because the car is cloned, so he forges the certificates to obtain tax. He then sells the cloned car to some poor, unsuspecting buyer. >>
Are you saying that crooks try to forge documents and data, which can be easily verified online by the Police and the Public, such that they produce new documents and buy new tax to over-ride the existing current valid data held by VOSA/PNC/MIB?
Mr X : >> Surely your savy cloner would use the on line service rather than show up at the counter ? >>
If the savvy cloner did that, how would he intercept the new tax disc sent to the real owner's address?
oldnotbold: >> Yes because until it's investigated who says they are innocent? >>
Are you are saying that the Justice system in the UK presumes that you are guilty until proven innocent?
Edited by jbif on 21/05/2009 at 16:28
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"Are you are saying that the Justice system in the UK presumes that you are guilty until proven innocent?"
In some circumstances that is the case. Take the saga of the car that was insured, but did not show up on MID, so the owner and family were removed from the car and had to walk away.
In the case of a person being in possession of forged notes, why is the immediate presumption of innocence a sensible option? They have to explain themselves, and it's reasonable for a law officer to assume the worst until a valid explanation and supporting evidence is forthcoming. They are still innocent of an offence until found guilty by a court, clearly.
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i refer you all to my post of Thu 21 May 09 10:42
its patently clear that although vosa and the dvla now share dvla towers swansea that the dvla local office do not have access to the vosa details
maybe a polite letter to the chief executives in the dvla can spend some money so that each satelite office has access to an open internet source so mandy on till number 3 please can verify the mot
easy stuff
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Yet another Mr X thread/posting that has ended up going right off topic and in a slagging match.
Is it time Mr X was removed from the forum?
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Members' removal from the site is down to HJ and the Mods. The OP was a reasonable post other people may have diverted it.
Edit:-
Having read this entire thread twice I honestly can't see where this has gone off topic. The OP has invited debate on the topic of forgery. You're entitled to disagree with opinions expressed by posters and member post in the full knowledge that there may be a "lively" debate.
Edited by Pugugly on 21/05/2009 at 18:09
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... removed from the forum? >>
No way. It would be big loss to the site's click count due to the loss of the fish that get hooked time and again, in the big shiny fluorescent bait labelled "bite here" that is put out for the regular catch.
Edited by jbif on 21/05/2009 at 18:06
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I for one have stopped reading his/hers threads or posts - how many others have had enough of the trolling that goes on around Mr X's user name?
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That's a matter for you Tron. Please keep on topic in the thread. Its easy to spot who posts - just don't read them if they annoy you.
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If you look at the number of members who read or contribute to my threads / posts, it must be a comforting sight for those who have chosen to advertise on this forum.
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So I am to be removed because others who post have diverted the topic or slagged each other off... Please do show me were I am slagging off another poster ?
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Moderator's posts are clear on this. Carry on the discussion by all means about the original post otherwise posts will be removed.
Mr X nor anyone else will be removed unless they breach site rules.
Edited by Pugugly on 21/05/2009 at 18:13
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its patently clear that although vosa and the dvla now share dvla towers swansea
where did you get that idea
last I heard they were in Bristol
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well on my map thats only 2mm away from swansea see ;-0
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Quick answer of the year award goes to bb !
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There's rapid, isn't it! ;-)
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