I've seen many horror stories on here and elsewhere, but I've had my DPF-equipped Mondeo for 14 months and 12,000 miles with no problems, apart from an early "oil service" light (a known ECU issue, reset for free with a free oil change by the dealer).
I know it's hardly a long period of ownership. And I may be tempting fate, but the Mondeo DPF implementation seems fairly robust and does not demand driver support -- there are no "traffic lights" to tell the driver to force a regeneration etc.
I believe DPF issues will get quickly resolved, with modified, more efficient & reliable designs.
This all reminds me of when catalysts were first introduced across the industry in 1992 ... lots of people warning of £1000+ costs to replace fragile cats damaged by going over speed bumps etc. Does anyone give even the slightest thought about their cat now?
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Having just sold a common rail diesel without a DPF and bought one with, I feel quite happy choosing a DPF as most of the problems occur for short distance drivers using supermarket fuel.
I've modified my drive to work to include a blast up a hill at 60 followed by flatter dual carriageway at 70.
DPF's are also damaged by incorrect oil in the engine. Presumably engines that also use a lot of oil can damage their DPF's.
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Anyone driving a diesel with a problematic DPF probably shouldn't be driving a DPF equipped diesel.
Diesels have always been the sensible choice for those doing in excess of 15,000 miles a year - a DPF merely makes high mileage a necessity.
I've done 24,000 with one in an Audi and no issues, even using supermarket fuel - it has regenerated about 5-6 times over that time. Despite not doing starship annual mileages my car gets regular motorway trips which aids regeneration.
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My 05 reg, Focus 1.6 TDCi has a DPF and has done 10's of thousands of miles, not a single problem with the DPF. Fuel consumption 70+ mpg on A & B roads, 64 mpg on long runs which include motorways and dual carriageways, and that's not mimser driving either.
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I am sorry CGNorwich but my reasons for not wanting a filter do not include the pleasure of poisoning people. I believed that if an engine does not have a filter then it does not need one to be as clean as some that do.
I am not sure if I am in filter danger or not. We do a small mileage most of the time & then put a caravan on ther back 4 or 5 times a year & haul long distance - this represents half of my annual mileage - which is why I am looking at a diesel at all. My limited at home mileage and the winter when we do very little mileage, & no towing seem like ideal particulate filter destroying conditions.
A low powered 1600 isn't going to meet the need so which 2 litre plus engines don't have them othet than the Discovery?
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Chris 23, our 2008 58 VW Touran 2.0TDi 150PS does not have a DPF. When we ordered it, we would have had to have ordered a specifically named DPF model to get one. We did not as we don't often do long motorway journeys and our mileage is about 10-12k, mostly on urban and stop-starp A road commuting.
I would imagine you can still get a VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda with this 2.0 150PS engine, without a DPF. I would think that would be OK for towing.
Edited by Alanovich on 17/04/2009 at 10:36
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"I am sorry CGNorwich but my reasons for not wanting a filter do not include the pleasure of poisoning people. I believed that if an engine does not have a filter then it does not need one to be as clean as some that do."
Wasn't implying a desire to poison people but I think will find that a DPF actually reduces particulate pollution by 80% to 90% thus making a car fitted with such a filter considerably cleaner than a vehicle not so fitted, even though that vehicle will meet the current emissions requirements.
A DPF fitted vehicle is therefore the more environmentally sound option.
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My 05 reg Focus 1.6 TDCi has a DPF >>
Mike,
Is that the version that requires a new DPF and ECU reset at the 70,000ish mile service ?
My 05 2.0 TDCi is not fitted with a DPF (one expence spared) my mpg is 43 around town, 50 motorways.
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My father in law bought (against all advice) a 2005 DPF equipped Volvo V50 2.0d last year as an A to B runabout for my mother-in-law. If she does 5,000 miles a year, I would be surprised. Worst of all it's all 'pop down the shops', or short journey stuff, with maybe one or two longer runs in a year when they go off on holiday to Cornwall or the Lakes. I told him to buy petrol (or an older diesel) at the time, but he wouldn't have it.
It's a matter of when, not if, the DPF woes start.
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DP - persuade FIL to let you take it for an Italian tune-up once a month or so.
Edited by Avant on 18/04/2009 at 00:16
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All this fuss and bother with the dubious pleasure of owning a DPF equipped car.
Very good for the environment i understand to have to take it for a prolonged thrashing every few weeks, and then we don't know the life expectancy of the things.
No thanks.
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I recently bought a new Honda CRV and i thought it would have had one. The salesman said no it doesnt. That pleased me because i have heard of people having lots of trouble with these. I was considering buying a quashkai and you can buy one of the engines with DPF & another without they mention this on their brochure. It also says on the brochure if you dont do a lot of long runs and drive mainly urban you may want to consider an engine without a DPF.
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Old Navy, yes that's the one. 75,000 miles the service schedule recommends the DPF is replaced. However, if the DPF is still functioning ok it doesn't necessarily require replacing, a bit like a cat in that respect.
Ford have since developed DPF technology to be maintenance free.
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MT,
Long may your DPF live!
And my DMF!
Edited by Old Navy on 19/04/2009 at 10:17
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CRV 2.2 diesel.
According to the manual it has got one in line with the Cat - there's even a drawing.
Edited by Pugugly on 19/04/2009 at 11:17
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I am confused.
I had thought that Particle Filters were fitted to diesel engines to get them through Euro4 tests. If this is not true - if they are optional it can't be for those engines - then as they are expensive I can't see manufacturers wanting to fit them.
I can understand the point about low output engines made at the beginning of the thread but the 140hp VW does not fit into that category.
On the question of polution I have also been told that the soot particles that come out of these filters are much smaller than out of a non filtered engines & that as they are smaller they get further into the lungs where they are much more carceogenic. This erodes their environmental credentials considerably. It makes the smoke invisible but more dangerous.
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My 04 307 Hdi seems to spend too much of its life "regenerating" - usually manifested by the engine cooling fan running for 10 minutes after I switch off at the end of a run. The car is never driven less than 10 miles but it is mostly on country roads where speeds over 50 mph are not really feasible. I recently had the magnet/sensor in the fuel cap relaced to no great effect. I have now taken to driving around in 4th gear, in an effort to keep the rpm over 2000 and the exhaust a bit hotter. It is going in for a 5 year service next month I shall be interested to see how it comes out and how much EOLYS it has used over the time and the 55K miles. No actual running faults, just a lot of regeneration! Where is Screwloose when we need him?
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On the question of polution I have also been told that the soot particles that come out of these filters are much smaller than out of a non filtered engines & that as they are smaller they get further into the lungs where they are much more carceogenic. This erodes their environmental credentials considerably. It makes the smoke invisible but more dangerous.
Hmmm could that be why I get a burning feeling in my throat/chest when Im near a running DPF equipped vehicle?
And... how many people realise you can get cancer from diesels?
tinyurl.com/29f9a9
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I'm one of those people that realise you can get cancer from diesels. In fact I've realised it for years.
It wasn't so long ago that petrol cars were seen as lead belching demons killing the environment. Ban leaded petrol, de-smog 'em and give them the cat. Diesels are much more environmentally friendly, just give them a smoke test come MOT time. As long as we can see our hand in front of our faces it's fine. We can all sleep easy in our beds at night knowing we're doing our bit for the planet and saving the nice polar bears by driving a diesel.
Really?
No, not really. In years to come, we will pay the price.
You'd be better off smoking 100 Capstan full strength a day.
Bad diesel. Dirty diesel.
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You'd be better off smoking 100 Capstan full strength a day.
...instead of what? Driving a diesel? Swimming in diesel? :-)
Seriously, not sure how bad you're saying it is.
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I wouldn't worry too much cc, when Iran, Syria and Egypt have nuclear bombs we will all be breathing funny particles.
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Just remember, life is a terminal condition.
You are best advised to ignore the wailings from researchers within the medical profession and enjoy the time you have.
Worry causes more deaths than anything else.
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No, not really. In years to come, we will pay the price. You'd be better off smoking 100 Capstan full strength a day. Bad diesel. Dirty diesel.
Living in an industrial society, you can worry about plenty of carcinogenic things besides diesel emissions, depending on what is uppermost in the public awareness at the time. If anyone says 'waste incinerator' the usual reaction is 'dioxins - they're carcinogenic aren't they? Can't have one of those'.
Particles usually settle out or get rinsed out of the air by rainfall fairly soon. Statistics suggest (just consider smoking) that some individuals are much more prone to develop it than others. You should assess your ancestry before deciding whether diesel exhaust is a serious danger to you personally.
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I remember as a kid when my dad was on the buses, being at the depot when the buses were shunted around or parked. These weren't modern catalysed diesels, but 60's, 70's and early 80's Gardner and Leyland diesels running on open exhausts. With street level pipes, the fumes from these things were quite overwhelming even at idle in open spaces, let alone when getting air up on cold starts.
I wonder if there is any escalated incidence of lung cancer among the drivers and particularly mechanics and fitters who were in and around these vehicles every single day?
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What can't one get cancer from?
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Some of the statements in your reference are little questionnable, given the data below and if you look a little into the web site originator you will understand why I find his "research" to be unreliable and his credentials lacking. One of his works include "Why Healthy Eating Is Making Us Ill"
The HSE did not recognise Diesel Engine Exhaust Emissions as carcinogenic up to 2005, of course mass hysteria may have changed that.
Diesels more likely to cause cancer than smoking? Smoke 100 CFS a day.
There are more than 50 cancer-causing chemicals in secondhand smoke that fall into different chemical classes, including:
Polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) (such as Benzo[a]pyrene)
N-Nitrosamines (such as tobacco-specific nitrosamines)
Aromatic amines (such as 4-aminobiphenyl)
Aldehydes (such as formaldehyde)
Miscellaneous organic chemicals (such as benzene and vinyl chloride) and
Inorganic compounds (such as those containing metals like arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, lead, nickel and radioactive polonium-210).
Eleven compounds in tobacco smoke (2-naphthylamine, 4-aminobiphenyl, benzene, vinyl chloride, ethylene oxide, arsenic, beryllium, nickel compounds, chromium, cadmium and polonium-210) have been identified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer as Group 1 (known human carcinogen) carcinogens.
As for particle size, my learning said that smaller particles will stay in suspension longer, behaving more like a gas than a particle. Typically a particle of less than .4 microns will be inhaled and exhaled without contact, also particles above 4 microns can be filtered out by bodily defences. Diesel particulate matter is 95% less than 1 micron (without DPF).
The earlier part of my career involved sampling and measuring respirable dust, I'd almost forgotten about that scintillating period until now, so thanks ;-(
{edited to correct an innocent word that the swear filter didn't like}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/04/2009 at 17:47
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As I live on the edge of the country:
we have pollen counts at times several times over the reported levels.
The foxes use our garden as a toilet at times - the stink.
We get dust blown off the roads.
Birds fly past and drop carp from a great height.
Leaves break down in autumn and fly through the air.
Our neighbours occasionally have large bonfires.
Cow dung dries in summer and attracts flies and maggots.
It's amazing I am still alive - let alone the bats, badgers bees and butterflies let alone the foxes, mice, insects and frogs in our pond. Oh and the cows in the field enter the food chain - be very afraid!
Cars: ?we have a bus route past our house...
Edited by madf on 20/04/2009 at 22:28
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Don't forget the chemical sprays on the fields, the barbecue smoke and carcinogenic charred meat! As I said earlier - you can probably get cancer from anything!
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All good character building stuff for your immune system.
I am an expert, I did a first aid course xx years ago!
Edited by Old Navy on 21/04/2009 at 09:40
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I fondly remember the fuel we used for the Turbo cars in the eighties which used to cause us stinging eyes,sore throats for days and nose bleeds. Lovely stuff.
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Read the small print in brackets Pug. It says for some models only. Currently British models only have to be Euro 1V complient hence no DPF on British CRV
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I've got the 2008 facelifted 1.6 TDCi Focus and like you have not had a single problem with the DPF over the last 12,500 miles. Just been serviced and nothing was brought up. It does seem to regenerate quite a bit though, suddenly the fuel economy guage will fall noticeably and if you happen to finish your journey the noise of the fan is unavoidable. I do a very mixed range of journey's but always try to ensure the car is warm before turning it off. Surprised the user manual says little about the DPF. Economy wise the best I have got is 67mpg, normally average 58-60mpg. Aiming for a 70mpg run this weekend.
My mum has got an 08 Mini Clubman CooperD with the same engine, but does much shorter runs. I have persuaded her to adapt some of her routes to take account of the DPF, but with BMWs efficient dynamics the engine warms up much faster than my Focus and it doesn't regenerate often. One thing to watch out for over the summer period is parking on grassy fields. The heat from the DPF does worry me a little if near dry grass (or am I just being paranoid)
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Regarding parking over long dry grass:
They say about this about petrol cat converters, but I don't know of any cars that've gone up in flames due to this.
Many cars I think now have a heat shield to prevent this from happening?
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