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DPF delete - Illegal? - andyfr
After seeing the numerous posts about the problems with DPFs my eye was caught by a company in a magazine offering DPF deletion kits. There was no mention of legality but I assume having this modification done would be illegal.

DPF delete - Illegal? - Bill Payer
I'm not aware that it would be specifically illegal (unlike the US, where it's an offence to interfere with emissions equip). Some owners de-cat their cars too and they still pass MOT.

I wonder if it's *very* technically illegal to make any alteration at all to a car, as it breaks its EU type approval? I doubt it though.
DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
For what it's worth, here's what the AA says about diesel particulate filters. tinyurl.com/382vzg

Edited by L'escargot on 28/01/2009 at 10:18

DPF delete - Illegal? - jc2
Very little legislation in the UK(almost zero) on "in-service conformity".A few councils do checks but that is usually "tailpipe emissions".
DPF delete - Illegal? - Armitage Shanks {p}
ISTR that for a few months in 2004 some 307s were made and sold without DPFs as there was a shortage of parts
DPF delete - Illegal? - jc2
The 307's were probably sold as St.III not St.IV emissions.
DPF delete - Illegal? - andyfr
Wouldn't a DPF deleted car fail an MOT?
DPF delete - Illegal? - jc2
No emission check on diesels-just smoke- and there are no component checks at all on MOTs.
DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
No emission check on diesels-just smoke-........


Smoke is "diesel particulates". Remove the diesel particulate filter and you get more smoke.

Edited by L'escargot on 28/01/2009 at 12:30

DPF delete - Illegal? - SpamCan61 {P}
Probably not enough to fail the test though? Assuming the smoke limit is the same irrespective of DPF fitting or not.
DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
Probably not enough to fail the test though?


If the car is only just under the limit with the filter fitted then removing the filter might make it fail.

My objection to someone removing the filter is that it is antisocial. The purpose of the filter is to reduce atmospheric pollution.

Edited by L'escargot on 28/01/2009 at 13:18

DPF delete - Illegal? - Bill Payer
Perhaps the DPF cars have the smoke test levels set very low so they're likely to fail without a DPF?

Having said that, if there are companies who will remove them, then that mustn't be the case.
DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
Having said that if there are companies who will remove them then that mustn't be
the case.


There are companies which will sell you all sorts of things that are illegal to use. Selling them is one thing, but using them is another.
DPF delete - Illegal? - andyfr
It's strange that it's possible to buy some models and choose to buy one with or without DPF.
DPF delete - Illegal? - andyfr
Will all future models have to have a DPF or is there some other method of cleaning the exhaust?
DPF delete - Illegal? - Armitage Shanks {p}
SFAIK a diesel car doesn't have to have a DFP to make it EuroIV 0r V compliant but some makers think it is the way forward. Do Merc and Honda and BMW diesels have such devices, for example? If not then they have met the requirements by some other means.
DPF delete - Illegal? - Manatee
My CR-V diesel is Euro IV and none-DPF. It scored 0.11 last month in its MoT smoke test (pass level 3.00 whatever-units-it's-in).

Edited by Manatee on 28/01/2009 at 18:58

DPF delete - Illegal? - rtj70
My Mondeo TDCi was EuroIV without any DPF.... my Mazda6 CR diesel is EuroIV with a DPF and has some issues (like the oil level rising). Progress.

For EuroIV I don't think DPF is needed but is for EuroV... so they needed to implement it and learn?
DPF delete - Illegal? - Bill Payer
Do Merc and Honda and BMW diesels have such devices for example?


It's a bit odd with Mercedes - some random models, such as S Class 320CDi, have them, but then there's no DPF on other models with the same engine.

Apparently they were offered as an option for a while during the EU3 to EU4 change-over period but few people ordered them.
DPF delete - Illegal? - Armitage Shanks {p}
BP - do Mercs with DPF also use the EOLYS injection system? I don't think DPFs were brought in to meet EUV as they have been around for 5 years already. Would something been have brought in that much before it was needed? Yes - to get us unfortunates to pay to road test it for them!
DPF delete - Illegal? - Bill Payer
BP - do Mercs with DPF also use the EOLYS injection system?


I've never seen that mentioned (as you often do on Peugeot's etc) so I don't think so.
I don't think DPFs were brought in to meet EUV as they have been around for 5 years
already.


Even the S320CDi currently sold with DPF fitted as standard is noted as being EU4.
DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
Will all future models have to have a DPF or is there some other method
of cleaning the exhaust?


According to the AA, using current technology a diesel particulate filter is the probable method.
DPF delete - Illegal? - Altea Ego
My objection to someone removing the filter is that it is antisocial. The purpose of
the filter is to reduce atmospheric pollution.


No it wasnt. It was to meet some dreamed up limit by some euro scribe somewhere. My non dpf diesel wont cause any more soot in the slime round your shell, than some Euro8 nonsence.
DPF delete - Illegal? - DP
I agree, AE. DPFs also increase fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, which could be considered equally antisocial.

AFAIK, the MOT smoke test is the same for all vehicles first used on or after 1st August 1979. Therefore, unless your ultra modern diesel is smokier without its DPF system than a 30 yr old relic, you shouldn't have any problems.

I would be a lot more concerned about the engine management side of things. It's one thing to rip out the DPF, but its another to reprogram or con the engine management into coping with regeneration or other DPF related matters without throwing errors.

Edited by DP on 28/01/2009 at 21:27

DPF delete - Illegal? - v8man
The MOT tset does not check the presence of DPFs or Cats only the emissions. If the emissions are within the prescribed limits the vehicle passes.
DPF delete - Illegal? - rtj70
My EuroIV Mondeo TDCi had no DPF but CO 2 emissions were higher than the Euro III version and did fewer MPG. But I got one as it saved 3% on BIK at the time.

Indeed that same EuroIV Mondeo had lower CO 2 emissions than my current Mazda6 diesel. Mondeo built in 2003 and Mazda built in 2007....
DPF delete - Illegal? - MikeTorque
Deleting a DPF is classified as a vehicle modification and would invalidate the vehicles insurance thus making it illegal. Steer well clear of any company offering deletions or modifications who will gladly take your money and leave your vehicle illegal to drive on the road.
DPF delete - Illegal? - Bill Payer
Deleting a DPF is classified as a vehicle modification and would invalidate the vehicles
insurance thus making it illegal.


It would be no problem if notified to the insurance company - just the same as chipping or remapping etc.
DPF delete - Illegal? - MikeTorque
The problem with these type of companies is they invariably offer a service and take your cash but rarely advise on the consequences of the modifications, who would put their trust in such a company for such work ! The ECU may have something to say about it.

Apart from that a DPF cleans up the soot particulates that could otherwise end up inside someones lungs.
DPF delete - Illegal? - mss1tw
Apart from that a DPF cleans up the soot particulates that could otherwise end up
inside someones lungs.


Not really it just bottles them up and lets it all go in one big lump
DPF delete - Illegal? - Another John H
>>>> a DPF cleans up the soot particulates....

>>Not really it just bottles them up and lets it all go in one big lump

AIUI a PDF has a controlled fire periodically to burn off the collected particles, so the
emissions are CO2 and the residue is a quantity of ash.

That's not the same a releasing the particles in "one big lump".

DPF delete - Illegal? - ijws15
My objection to someone removing the filter is that it is antisocial. The purpose of
the filter is to reduce atmospheric pollution.


DPF does not reduce pollution, on the model I have CO figure is the same with/without, and both meet Euro 4. All it does is release the pollution in a slightly different form and in a different place (i.e. when it regenerates)

If you worry about pollution that much your morals should not let you use a car!
DPF delete - Illegal? - TeeCee
My objection to someone removing the filter is that it is antisocial. The purpose of the filter is to reduce atmospheric pollution.

Well, it doesn't reduce atmospheric pollution at all, as it burns the lot off out the tailpipe anyway. Those types that add diesel to facilitate that process actually increase atmospheric pollution.

What they do do is trade larger particulates, which are known to be carcinogenic and contribute to breathing problems, for smaller particulates from the burnoff process, which are only thought possibly to be carcinogenic and contribute to breathing problems.

It's a political object designed to gloss over one of the more glaring problems of the "dash for diesel" caused by the CO2 botherers.

DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
Read all about Euro 5 emissions standards for cars due to come into force September 2009. tinyurl.com/y34st7

Diesel particulates will have to be reduced by 80% compared with what Euro 4 allowed.

Currently, particulate emissions of diesels are 4 to 5 times higher than particulate emissions of petrols, and Euro 5 is being introduced to reduce diesel particulates to the emission levels of petrols. With current technology it will not be possible to meet Euro 5 standards without a diesel particulate filter being fitted.
DPF delete - Illegal? - ijws15
Lets get real here.

The really dangerous emissions are the ones you cannot see.

examples being the Lead compounds which caused the removal of lead.

And the benzine that replaced the lead.

Lets get petrol cars off the road - their emissions are dangerous ;-)
DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
Lets get real here.
The really dangerous emissions are the ones you cannot see.


The emissions which trigger asthma attacks and the like are particulate emissions.
DPF delete - Illegal? - CGNorwich
The emissions which trigger asthma attacks.

As far as I am aware there is no conclusive evidence that diesel emissions trigger asthma attacks and indeed the incidence of asthma in the population does not seem to have any correlation to motor vehicle pollution
DPF delete - Illegal? - MikeTorque
You want evidence, have you been to any of the high pollution cities in the world ? People are dying and/or suffering in their thousands as a direct result of motor vehicle pollution.
DPF delete - Illegal? - CGNorwich
I didn't say that people don't suffer from motor vehicle pollution, I said that there is no evidence confirming a link betwee asthma and diesel emissions

Edited by CGNorwich on 30/01/2009 at 12:58

DPF delete - Illegal? - L'escargot
As far as I am aware there is no conclusive evidence that diesel emissions trigger
asthma attacks ...........


Read the section entitled "Air Pollutants that Trigger Asthma", and particularly the sub-section entitled "Particulate Matter", in this article. tinyurl.com/ak5vw2
DPF delete - Illegal? - ijws15
I take anything published by the medical establishment with a large pinch of salt.

These are the people who say . .

Statins benefit everybody - they only benefit a small group of the population and are a detriment to anyone else . . .

Lower your cholesterol - but women with lower cholesterol DIE younger.

Eat less fat to reduce heart disease - tell that to an Inuit - it is changing from a full fat diet to a carbohydrate diet that causes heart disease.

And what happened to the AIDS / BSE epidemics they told us we would see . . . . .

My son was diagnosed with Asthma but they now recognise that he never, ever had it.
DPF delete - Illegal? - CGNorwich
Air Pollutants that Trigger Asthma

There is a lot of theorising but no proof of any link. Some ineresting facts in this article

www.abd.org.uk/asthma.htm
DPF delete - Illegal? - conman

In an article I read some time ago about particles, it said that particles are not all one size pm10's. They come in all sizes from PM1's upwards. It seems that the Eu has picked on PM10's as they are the most common size produced by diesels and what triggered that I imagine was someone seeing an old diesel engine under load pumping out clouds of black smoke. The good point of Pm10's is that they are large enough to be caught.

All engines produce particles, and in this article it said petrol cars produce more PM 5's these are half the size of Pm10's are more easily inhaled and most probably cause more health worries and there are no filters, so these are being pumped out into the air. Also lets not forget the Benzene in petrol engines. One of the most carsonagenic chemicals out there.

In America all petrol pumps are fitted with vent pipes to put the gasses back into the tank, but here in good old UK, the health and safety clan rely on the drivers breathing in the fumes, filtering them through your lungs and passing them out through the cheeks of your a---e. Any women reading this please do not take offense as I know it is only a few not the majority that suffer unlike men, from this slight touch of wind.

As diesels are getting cleaner, the technology is getting more complicated and pointing people to petrol cars that do not have any filters fitted (PM's).

If manufacturers are so comitted to low emissions how is it that I cannot buy a Ford Focus without air con ( uses 8% more fuel) and told by most enonomy drivers to turn off and it adds £500 to car. I have managed since 03 with a non air con fiesta if I get hot I open the window. The DPF's have an effect on fuel consumption so does Catalytic converters. The addition of the stop start system must put more stress on the battery and will most probably give it a shorter life span. Thus causing more polution in manufacturing a replacement. At present I still have the original Ford battery on my 03 fiesta, 8 years old and still going strong. We still have the original battery on our 01 picasso, (10 years). all I do is trickle charge them before the winter and in spring.

any comments

thank you for reading.

DPF delete - Illegal? - unthrottled

any women reading this please do not take offense as I know it is only a few not the majority that suffer unlike men, from this slight touch of wind.


You've gone off on a tangent about petrols and ultrafine PM. You can't lump petrols into one group-you need to split them into port and direct injection. Port injection petrols have PM matter at least an order of magnitude below that of a stratified charge engine (petrol or diesel) under all conditions other than a cold start. That is the benefit of a homogeneous, pre mixed charge.

DPF delete - Illegal? - jc2

You most certainly can buy Focus without A/C -but not in the UK;it's to do with take-up of options-not the environment.

DPF delete - Illegal? - Mark-UK

It is fully legal to remove the catalytic converter from a Diesel Car and it will not raise any issue at MOT time. This also applies to DPF (Diesel Particulate Filters), which are not even mentioned in the testers manual.

In January 2012 there was a regulation change for cars that require an emissions test where 'if a cat was fitted as standard, it must be there for the MOT'. Diesel cars are not required to pass this emissions test, so that regulation doesn't apply. There are no further emissions related changed expected in the near future and any changes to emission tests are unlikely due to the massive cost to the MOT stations.

I have had mine DPF removed by London Remaps. They have also remapped my BMW 320d from 163HP to 190HP. Massive difference.
Remapped was included in price. Entire job only took them 3 hours to complete. They are based in South London - Dulwich SE24.

I don't think there is a cheaper and better equipped place in London

Andrew

DPF delete - Illegal? - Collos25

Its is legal to remove a DPF nobody can stop you physically removing the unit but you must inform your insurance company and inform the DVLA and apply for a new log book after you have had all immission measurements made and recorded by a registered garage.This is where the illegality comes in because no insurance company will cover a car that has been tampered with and the DVLA will not issue a new log book.

Is this mail going to be removed like many others.

DPF delete - Illegal? - unthrottled

In January 2012 there was a regulation change for cars that require an emissions test where 'if a cat was fitted as standard, it must be there for the MOT'. Diesel cars are not required to pass this emissions test,

Look again. MOTUK section 7.1

Reason for rejection:

Catalytic converter missing where once is standard.

A DPF is a catalytic converter. No one said you wouldn't get away with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal.

DPF delete - Illegal? - Duncan112

Look again. MOTUK section 7.1

Reason for rejection:

Catalytic converter missing where once is standard.

A DPF is a catalytic converter. No one said you wouldn't get away with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal.

Sorry Unthrottled, I've the greatest respect for your contributions to this forum but I would argue that point in that the majority of emissions reduction devices on compression ignition engines are filters (I will admit that there are a (VERY) few catalytic devices but most have no catalytic effect. (Although some of the snake oil salesmen would like you to believe that you can pour something into your tank that gives a catalytic effect)

Whilst section 7.1 does mention catalysts in general, 7.3 (spark ignition engines) mentions catalytic converters the catalyst word is significantly absent from section 7.4 which specifically deals with compression ignition engines. Therefore if there was no catalyst fitted you can hardly remove it. I suspect however that next time the guidance is revised the words "or filter" may well be added.

Having said that I believe that removing either a catalytic converter or DPF will adversely affect both engine life and performance

DPF delete - Illegal? - unthrottled

Section 7.1 covers both spark and compression ignition (CI) engines.

I completely agree that there is no test for catalytic activity in the CI emissions test.

but I would argue that point in that the majority of emissions reduction devices on compression ignition engines are filters

Before DPF became (effectively) mandatory, oxidation catalysts were fitted to diesels and they are effective at mopping up CO and HC.

Nowadays, the oxidation catalyst is sited upstream of the DPF and incorporated into a single unit.

I agree that the DPF is a filter. But the regeneration process of the filter requires catalysis. So I would argue that the unit as a whole is a catalytic converter.

To be fair, the wording of the regulations is slightly ambiguous.

We can both agree that the chances of a gutted DPF being discovered at MOT are slim.

DPF delete - Illegal? - vas786

i had my dpf removed on my mazda 6 55 plate the company i used are based in london

i dont think its illegal

(Website link deleted)

Edited by Avant on 30/12/2012 at 22:17

DPF delete - Illegal? - Collos25

Advert.

DPF delete - Illegal? - Andy P

This is what VOSA have to say:

"Thank you for your e-mail reply dated 19th December 2011, concerning new MOT test rules.

The fitment of a catalytic converter to petrol engine vehicles is mandatory for vehicles of the specified age and type e.g. passenger car, goods etc. The MOT Inspection Manual can therefore specify exactly what petrol engine vehicles must have a catalyst fitted.

However, whilst diesel engine vehicles are required to meet certain emissions limits for Type Approval, the method used to achieve this is not specified. It was left to the engine manufacturer to decide how to meet Euro 3, 4, 5 etc emissions standards.

For this reason, testers would be unable to readily determine which vehicles are OE fitted with a Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC), Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) or Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) system.

It was therefore considered that the introduction of a Reason for Rejection for a missing diesel catalyst at this stage, whilst complying with the Directive, was likely to lead to many incorrect failures, which is clearly unacceptable.

The matter is under review and may therefore change in the future."

DPF delete - Illegal? - Collos25

This is only regarding testing at a UK MOT testing station removal of a catalytic convertor when installed by a manufacturer to meet EU standards is illegal.The fact it will pass an UK mot test is irrelevant.

DPF delete - Illegal? - skidpan

It was left to the engine manufacturer to decide how to meet Euro 3, 4, 5 etc emissions standards.

Shows how much VOSA know.

Euro 3 and 4 only needed a DPF if they could not meet the emission regs without one. Our old Focus 1.6110 PS was Euro 3 and no DPF, the Euro 4 vesion had a DPF.

All Euro 5 passenger vehicles have a DPF by law.

Therefore by VOSA's own criteria if the vehicle is Euro 5 and has no DPF it must fail.

But since Euro 5 only became law on 01 01 2011 no Euro 5 cars will have been MOT's yet.

DPF delete - Illegal? - Big John

With Euro 6 Particulate Filters could be required on some petrols engines.

Old simple Multi Point Injection may be OK but direct injection (tsi, gdi etc..) probably will require some sort of particulate filter!

delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2011-01-1212.pdf

Edited by Big John on 01/01/2013 at 22:21

DPF delete - Illegal? - rfm943

Is there not another issue here, regarding DVLA and road tax?

The V5 states the emissions on the vehicle and road tax is charged accordingly. If the DPF is removed then I imagine that emissions will increase, so technically the road tax should be increased as well. Is there also any legal issue with selling a vehicle which shows the incorrect emission details on its registration document?

I suspect that this would be difficult to identify and enforce but it must be at least bordering on illegal in this respect as well.

DPF delete - Illegal? - Collos25

It has already been mentioned ,if you remove the cat you are obliged to tell the DVLA and apply for new log book after the the vehicle has been retested.

DPF delete - Illegal? - john farrar
It is an interesting point that if you change the emissions then you have to tell the DVLA and get the vehicle re-tested. This means that ANY modification that changes the CO2 emissions is 'illegal' . This could include wider tyres, body work mods, even increasing the weight of the vehicle by installing a full size spare or a roof rack.bull bars etc.
I suspect that there are many 'illegal' cars out there, without the owners knowing.
I wonder if anyone has ever be prosecuted?
DPF delete - Illegal? - andyfr
Maybe the owner of the vehicle should be weighed to determine the CO2 emissions. ;)
DPF delete - Illegal? - unthrottled

CO2 is not a regulated trace pollutant in a way that HC, CO NOX and particulates are. There are no limits on the amount of CO2 that a vehicle can produce. but if a car produces more than the maximum permitted level of CO, HC, NOx or PM, then it can't be registered on the road.

 

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