Surely, NowWheels, even you would have to admit that a person was to blame for this incident, not a motor manufacturer?
Being scratched and bumped is not an inevitability, even in urban areas. It's just humans not caring how they treat other people's property.
I guess you'd be happier if every car looked like a shopping trolley? ;-)
|
Surely NowWheels even you would have to admit that a person was to blame for this incident not a motor manufacturer?
A person caused the incident, probably by accident. Shoddy vehicle design which allows this sort of thing to damage the car's protective skin is what makes the incident something worth mentioning.
Being scratched and bumped is not an inevitability even in urban areas.
That may be true if we are talking about any particular car, but it is a statistical inevitability that some cars will be bumped some of the time.
|
>Shoddy vehicle design which allows this sort of thing
I haven't taken issue with you before, NW, but this accusation is ridiculously unfair - I can only assume you are playing devil's advocate. Whatever the finish on their vehicles, most car owners (perhaps not you?) would prefer them to remain unscratched. A trolley would mark uncoated metal or plastic similarly. How would your ideal undamageable car be finished?
|
>Shoddy vehicle design which allows this sort of thing
If it was refering to the trolleys, then I'd agree.....
|
|
|
I haven't taken issue with you before NW but this accusation is ridiculously unfair - I can only assume you are playing devil's advocate.
Quite the contrary. Any vehicle which isn't kept in a museum will get bumped and banged and scratched in the course of ordinary use, whether that's from loading luggage or people squeezing past or overhanging vegetation, or doors being opened in tighting parking spaces, or (as in this case) wheeled trollies in a wheeled trolley zone.
That's the environment that cars are used in, and their current finishes are designed for showroom appeal rather than being made fit for purpose for which vehicles are actually used.
Whatever the finish on their vehicles most car owners (perhaps not you?) would prefer them to remain unscratched.
Prefer, but it's no big deal. Some car enthusiasts have been suckered into the manufacturers marketing dream of a car as a gleaming work of art, whereas in fact it's a mass-produced machine with a relatively short working life, but for most people it's just a tool.
A trolley would mark uncoated metal or plastic similarly.
No problem, so long as it doesn't puncture or corrode.
How would your ideal undamageable car be finished?
Any material which isn't going to rust or otherwise lose its structural integrity and watertightness as a result of the inevitable minor dings and scratches. Stainless steel would be fine, and so would bare aluminium, and so would the sort of tough plastic which bumpers are made from (so long as it wasn't painted). There are probably other materials which would also do fine, but those are the ones I can think of.
The manufacturers don't want to make such a car, though, because the contrast between the gleam of their highly-painted and highly-polished showroom models and the faded or rusting paint on the models from a years before is a big part of the eye-candy they use to persuade people to buy new.
|
Wow a car made from the derformable plastic of bumbers with all its ability to protect you in an accident ;-)
And two cars spring to mind made of aluminium, built on space frames. Audi A8 and Jaguar XJ. But they are painted.
|
|
|
Stainless steel would be fine and so would bare aluminium
looks very nice until you get a fingerprint on it. Which is almost impossible to remove, as any DeLorean owner will tell you
>>and so would the sort of tough plastic which bumpers are made from>>
most bumpers on euro and jap cars shatter like tic tac boxes.
|
|
|
' Whatever the finish on their vehicles most car owners (perhaps not you?) would prefer themto remain unscratched.'
Yes we would. Not out of some form of vanity or compulsion but because the minute you go to get a trade in valuation, the salesperson is already praying that they will find some imperfection in order to reduce that trade in value. On the other hand, should you point out a similar imperfection on the vehicle you are buying, they'll tell you that ' it's not a new car ' and that it's bound to have ' a few marks ". They won't , however, rush to adjust the price accordingly .
|
|
|
Some car enthusiasts have been suckered into the manufacturers marketing dream of a car as a gleaming work of art
But thats the whole point, we don't live in the old Soviet block where those of us that play by the rules will be granted permission to buy a peoples trabant....yet.
We don't all think of our cars as just a tool, we don't all buy the same car, and for the time being we are still allowed to be a little bit individual albeit at a cost.
I own a lovely 12 nearly 13 year old MB coupe, i think its in lovely condition, i hope it looks only half its age or less and its my daily driving car.
I don't however take it to the supermarket because many of the increasingly peculiar population seem incapable of having any respect for anyone else's property, or even for anyone else it seems.
Do you really think thats normal, desirable or right?
It may be a fact of life now, but do we have to descend to the poorest behavioural standards, if so stop the planet i wish to get off.
Why should my lovely old car be damaged by sheer ignorance or malicious jealousy, am i to feel somehow wrong or guilty because i don't conform to the utopian idea of a good comrade, and have the bourgeois audacity to want to drive something of (to my eyes) beauty and relative rarity.
If it collects stone chips and scratches through normal use, i can and do pay the man that can to restore it to its former glory, i do object to paying for damage caused by some empty headed person incapable of controlling a shopping trolley.
I don't want the ideal of the workers choice of industrial vehicle, i don't actually want any car thats currently manufactured regardless of the price, they bore me with their uniform cloned looks and dependency on electronics.
I agree with you that vehicle bodies could be made of tougher materials, and i've had them and we own one of them currently, but they tend to be frowned upon as i'm referring to the good old 4x4, and owning one of them seems to grant one eternal damnation these days.
The OP deserves to be able to take their car anywhere and expect it to be treated with reasonable care by anyone passing, its a great pity that they can't.
Anything short of having respect for other people and their property is mindless vandalism.
|
|
Quite agree gb....have to say though when I park at a supermarket I try to keep well clear of 4x4s ;-)
|
If you find a dark blue hilux with hardtop, usually clean...
park with complete ease, appearances are often deceptive, but so far it hasn't gained any parking dings, i'll give it time..;)
|
|
|
|
>>dependency on electronics.
Your MB wouldn't get far without them;
engine management
ABS
comfort control
heating control
multi-timer
remote locking?,
and unless your car's wireless uses valves...
|
Your MB wouldn't get far without them;
And its quite advanced enough for me thankyou.
|
|
|
|
I own a lovely 12 nearly 13 year old MB coupe i think its in lovely condition i hope it looks only half its age or less and its my daily driving car. I don't however take it to the supermarket because many of the increasingly peculiar population seem incapable of having any respect for anyone else's property or even for anyone else it seems.
Well, it sounds like you have found your solution. If you don't want your car to be subject to the normal wear-and-tear of life, you can ensure that it's not exposed to that wear-and-tear. Those of us who haven't develop a love affair with a metal box can continue to accept that stuff happens.
Do you really think thats normal desirable or right?
I'm much less concerned about what whether a few bits of painted metal get sullied than whether those bits of painted metal are used in a way that endangers or displaces other road-users.
It may be a fact of life now but do we have to descend to the poorest behavioural standards if so stop the planet i wish to get off.
Funny thing, that. When measures are put in place to stop drivers descending to the lowest behavioural standards (zooming through residential streets), there are howls of protest from motorists who object that their cars will be damaged unless they -- perish the thought -- slow down!
|
"Those of us who haven't develop a love affair with a metal box can continue to accept that stuff happens."
If you have a lease/company car it often needs to get all the minor "parking dings" fixing before it can go back. I know you aren't in this situation NowWheels.
|
|
|
Funny thing that. When measures are put in place to stop drivers descending to the lowest behavioural standards (zooming through residential streets) there are howls
You'll find me and the vast majority of (hopefully in my case) decent honourable caring people who also happen to be drivers will be the first to howl in protest at any idiot that blasts through residential streets or anywhere else inappropriate for that matter.
Its not the sole right of those unable to appreciate quality cars and the enjoyment of such to be the only ones to have any sense of responsibility to their fellow men.
By some strange quirk of fate i own a car thats not an industrial shoe box, worse still i enjoy the ownership of the thing, maybe in the brave new world we are descending into thats quaint and unwanted possibly will even be subversive given time, but until the commissars take over i'll continue to enjoy my strange affair.
And until then i'll hope that my dreadful car choice won't be too provocative for the new breed of trolley wielding urban warrior to resist damaging too much..;)
The issue in question wasn't about speed, but it had to get dragged in as its the new mantra.
It was about people having the decency to treat others property with some semblance of respect.
Maybe its no longer allowed for a car owner to be as passionate about his vehicle as it is for the car user to be as dispassionate.
Happy New Year one and all.
|
|
drat i wanted to be first to post in 2009 you beat me to it
|
you beat me to it
I would say sorry WL, but..i'm not ..;)
|
|
Someone in technical beat both of you to it.
|
|
Those of us who haven't develop a love affair with a metal box can continue to accept that stuff happens.
Ah so you wouldn't be bothered if you found your car had been vandalised one day?
|
Ah so you wouldn't be bothered if you found your car had been vandalised one day?
Accidental damage is not vandalism.
|
|
But there is no such thing as an ' accident ".Everything has a cause.
|
But there is no such thing as an ' accident ".Everything has a cause.
So when Mr X's car skids on a bit of spilt oil on the road by the vehicle ahead of him, and he crashes into another car, the police should say "there's no such thing as an accident" and prosecute him for criminal damage. That might make Mr X happy, but it would be bad law.
Of course there is such a thing as an accident. It's a negative event which was not caused intentionally. Some accidents may be the result of carelessness or recklessness, but they are still accidents. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
|
'the police should say "there's no such thing as an accident"'
Thats exactly what they do say . I think it was Brunstrom ( North wales ) who said it.
|
>> But there is no such thing as an ' accident ".Everything has a cause. So when Mr X's car skids on a bit of spilt oil on the road by the vehicle ahead of him and he crashes into another car the police should say "there's no such thing as an accident" and prosecute him for criminal damage. That might make Mr X happy but it would be bad law.
They don't call them 'accidents' because it implies that they couldn't be avoided. 'Accidents' do happen on our roads, but any Police officer who works with collisions every day will tell you that they are VERY rare. Almost all collisions are due to human error!
Of course there is such a thing as an accident. It's a negative event which was not caused intentionally. Some accidents may be the result of carelessness or recklessness but they are still accidents. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
In my whole life I can't remember loosing control of a trolley and crashing into another vehicle. Am I some kind of trolley driving expert or am I just careful and considerate around other peoples (any my own) property?
Ah wait, I think I see the problem. The car park is full, somebody has a big shopping trolley, and they can't hold it and unload it at the same time?
|
The times I have seen trolleys get out of control is when they are being retrieved by the trolley staff. A long line of trolleys with speed and mass heading towards a car which is only narrowly avoided.
In this situation the supermarket would be to blame and it would not be an accident. It would be someone moving dozens of trolleys without due care.
|
They don't call them 'accidents' because it implies that they couldn't be avoided. 'Accidents' do happen on our roads but any Police officer who works with collisions every day will tell you that they are VERY rare. Almost all collisions are due to human error!
A collision caused by human error is still an accident; it's the absence of intent that defines an accident. See www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Accident or any other dictionary
I guess the Police avoid the term partly to avoid prejudicing any proceedings, and partly because some people mistakenly assume that an "accident" means something unforeseeable and unavoidable.
|
That's why 'Accidents' are now refered to as 'Collisions'.
|
NowWheels, said:
>Any vehicle which isn't kept in a museum will get bumped and banged and scratched..
I think that every car owner fully accepts that their car will get a few bumps bangs and
scratches along the way.
What they really object to are the avoidable dings caused by those people who try to excuse their negligent behaviour by claiming that the fault lies elsewhere - like "shoddy vehicle design".
>Some car enthusiasts have been suckered into the manufacturers marketing dream of a car as
>a gleaming work of art, whereas in fact it's a mass-produced machine with a relatively
>short working life, but for most people it's just a tool.
I take it that your wardrobe is full of 10 year old brown polyester?
>Some accidents may be the result of carelessness or recklessness, but they are still accidents.
So when Joe Bloggs slams his shopping trolley into the side of my car because he wasn't in full control it's OK because it was an accident.
And you are perfectly happy for him to swap that trolley for a two tonne vehicle.
Don't you find that inconsistent with some of your other posts?
Kevin...
|
I take it that your wardrobe is full of 10 year old brown polyester?
You appear to be confusing a wheeled machine with an item of clothing. (Quick clue: clothes don't have engines)
So when Joe Bloggs slams his shopping trolley into the side of my car because he wasn't in full control it's OK because it was an accident.
No, it's not OK, but it's not a big deal. Same as breaking a glass is no big deal.
And you are perfectly happy for him to swap that trolley for a two tonne vehicle.
If the two-tonne vehicle had no brakes and castor wheels at all four corners, then I'd share your concern in bucketloads.
Don't you find that inconsistent with some of your other posts?
I have yet to hear of anyone being killed by runaway shopping trolleys, or speeding trolleys making parents reluctant to let their kids walk to school. That's the difference here: I'm concerned about people, not the polish on a metal box.
|
>You appear to be confusing a wheeled machine with an item of clothing.
So you've been suckered into the manufacturers dream that clothes are a form of personal expression and identity and not just something to keep you warm?
>(Quick clue: clothes don't have engines)
Quit the condescending carp.
>No, it's not OK, but it's not a big deal. Same as breaking a glass is no big deal.
£50 or whatever it costs every time to repair a dinged door is "no big deal"?
Fine. Just don't complain when someone puts a fag burn in your suit or spills wine on those suede shoes you bought yesterday.
>If the two-tonne vehicle had no brakes and castor wheels at all four corners,
Out-of-control is out-of-control, the vehicle is irrelevant as the cyclist who killed a pedestrian discovered.
If Joe Bloggs is incapable of forseeing the damage he can do with a shopping trolley what makes you think his attitude will change when he's behind the wheel?
>That's the difference here: I'm concerned about people, not the polish on a metal box.
What?
Defending irresponsible and unnecessary damage to other peoples property is "concern about people"?
How did you dream that one up?
Kevin...
|
>(Quick clue: clothes don't have engines) Quit the condescending carp.
Great idea. But if you dish it out, Kevin, expect to get it back.
£50 or whatever it costs every time to repair a dinged door is "no big deal"?
Only if you want to repair every ding so that your car looks like it's fresh out of the showroom. Most of them don't cause any structural damage or risk any rust.
Defending irresponsible and unnecessary damage to other peoples property is "concern about people"? How did you dream that one up?
I'm not defending it. I'm just suggesting that it's a very minor issue and that some people are ridiculously precious about their wheeled metal boxes, and that it's much better to just accept a bit of wear-and-tear as something that happens rather than worry that the car no longer looks brand new.
|
>Great idea. But if you dish it out, Kevin, expect to get it back.
Actually, I thought I'd been quite polite to you, so far.
>Only if you want to repair every ding so that your car looks like it's fresh out of the
>showroom. Most of them don't cause any structural damage or risk any rust.
I don't want to repair any dings that were caused by other peoples lack of respect for my property. I've worked hard to buy things that give me pleasure. Nobody has the right to trash them with impunity.
You advocate zero tolerance for speeding on the grounds that you consider it anti-social and it might result in accidents and injury. You have asserted in other threads that there is no reasonable excuse for speeding if drivers are careful.
Why can't you be careful with a trolley? Is that beyond your capabilities?
>I'm not defending it. I'm just suggesting that it's a very minor issue and that some
>people are ridiculously precious about their wheeled metal boxes, and that it's much
>better to just accept a bit of wear-and-tear as something that happens rather than worry
>that the car no longer looks brand new.
Like I said:
"Fine. Just don't complain when someone puts a fag burn in your suit or spills wine on those suede shoes you bought yesterday."
If you don't care about your appearance it's no big deal, there's probably no structural damage eh?
Kevin...
|
You advocate zero tolerance for speeding on the grounds that you consider it anti-social and it might result in accidents and injury. You have asserted in other threads that there is no reasonable excuse for speeding if drivers are careful. Why can't you be careful with a trolley? Is that beyond your capabilities?
You are in a very snippy mood, Kevin. Chill :)
I do take great care with trolleys, and so far as I know I have never damaged a car with one. But if a trolley slips out of someone's hand and rolls into the next car, it's exceptionally unlikely to hurt any person, which is why I don't regard it as a big deal.
I think it's a pity that you don't seem to see a bit of scratched metal as a much less serious issue than a person hit by a car. Sadly, the love affair with the polished metal box can lead some people to get their perspectives very confused.
|
>You are in a very snippy mood, Kevin. Chill :)
Quit the patronising carp too!
>I think it's a pity that you don't seem to see a bit of scratched metal as a much less
>serious issue than a person hit by a car.
I never said that, and oh by the way, you never answered my question.
"If Joe Bloggs is incapable of forseeing the damage he can do with a shopping trolley what makes you think his attitude will change when he's behind the wheel?"
Is he likely to take more care whilst driving than he does with a trolley or is it a general attitude problem?
>Sadly, the love affair with the polished metal box can lead some people to get their
>perspectives very confused.
Much like another persons hatred of motor vehicles and the realisation that they can't earn a living without one leaves them very confused?
Let me tell you a story:
In 2002 I left a business card under the windshield wiper of a beautiful old Facel Vega that I'd seen damaged in a Sainsbury's car park (I posted about it here at the time). A young woman had held the door of her SUV against the Facel while her kids climbed out of the back and it had put a nasty crease in the Facel's bodywork.
A week or so later, the old guy who owned the car rang to thank me. He'd confronted the SUV owner when she came out of the store but she'd denied all responsibility. He showed her my card and told her that he had a witness. At that point she agreed to pay for the damage. (The repair was not going to be cheap because the scratch had penetrated the paintwork and left a deep scratch in the metal. Matching the paint wasn't going to be easy either).
About 3 years later I got a call from a woman who'd found my business card and was calling his friends to let them know that he'd passed away.
When I explained that I wasn't really a friend and the reason why he had my card she told me the full story of the car.
Her father had bought the car when he left the RAF. It was the car that her father had courted her mother in and the car that they had used for their wedding, honeymoon and many holidays. Her father had driven her to her own wedding in the car. He had owned it from new and kept it in pristine condition. The scratching incident had occurred not long after her mother had died and it had upset the old boy.
The car was now in her ownership and she was as passionate about it as her mother and father had been.
To you, the Facel was "a bit of scratched metal".
That is why I consider your attempt to trivialise careless behaviour as "no big deal" contemptible.
Kevin...
|
>You are in a very snippy mood Kevin. Chill :) Quit the patronising carp too!
Kevin, as you know, I was replying to your snide and patronising question " Why can't you be careful with a trolley? Is that beyond your capabilities?"
If you want to patronise me, expect to be patronised back. And if you don't like being patronised, don't do it to others.
That is why I consider your attempt to trivialise careless behaviour as "no big deal" contemptible.
Kevin, however precious the Facel to its owner, the scratched the Facel was indeed just a bit of scratched metal. It wasn't a human bone that would never heal properly, and it wasn't a scar on someone's skin. I'm glad the car was fixed and glad that you helped the owner to identify the culprit ... but in the end the owner can't take the car with him.
If people want to be passionate about things, that's their privilege. I don't find it "contemptible" (to use your word), just sad.
|
>..but in the end the owner can't take the car with him.
No, he did something better. He passed it on so that others could share the enjoyment that it had given him.
>If people want to be passionate about things, that's their privilege. I don't find it
>"contemptible" (to use your word), just sad.
Sad is probably the best word for someone unable to feel passion for anything inanimate.
Kevin...
|
|
True, Kevin - but even you and I probably couldn't rustle up very much passion for a Nissan Almera!
|
>True, Kevin - but even you and I probably couldn't rustle up very much passion for a Nissan Almera!
No, I couldn't.
My neighbour's 18yo son probably could though. He has one that was given to him and it's his first car. Remember what that felt like?
Kevin...
|
'£50 or whatever it costs every time to repair a dinged door is "no big deal"?'
I am so delighted to be contributing to a board with so many millionaire members. Quite often when reading posts I see some one post something like- " X amount is no big deal " with the figures running from £30 to several hundreds. Looks like we are in the company of the wealth creators Kevin !
|
'£50 or whatever it costs every time to repair a dinged door is "no big deal"?' I am so delighted to be contributing to a board with so many millionaire members.
They key points are that a small dent is not the end of the world... and also that it'd probably be cheaper to live with all the dents and dings and then get them done in one go just before you sell the car... but as NW says too many people get all hot under the collar and want it repaired straight away, even though its not dangerous to anyone (or the car itself) and there is also a fair chance it will happen again next week when you do the shopping...
Or you could walk to the supermarket and make use of their home delivery service that way keeping your pride and joy in good nick... after all, the supermarket run is not exactly the most exciting piece of motoring, is it?! ;)
|
|
|
dependency on electronics.
Just to underscore what Mapmaker said, and knowing it's completely irrelevant to the thread, I have up to now found 7 ECUs lurking in various corners of my 15 year old W124 E320 Coupe. For those interested, they control the following (I think):
Engine Management
Traction Control
ABS
Body Systems (windows, locking, seats etc.)
Gearbox
Auxiliary stand heating
Climate
It also has a drive by wire throttle.
Not bad for a car designed in the late 80s.
It was also scratch free when I bought it. I park it well out of everyone's way when I go shopping in it. First scratch on a 15 year old car was down to my bad parking. It hurt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
>> Why does the manufacturers not put a rubber protective 'bumber' on these damn trolleys. >> >> Save everybody a lot of expense and hassle??? Why don't car manufacturers stop using glossy-painted steel as the skin material for vehicles which will inevitable be scratched and bumped in urban areas?
Cars only get scratched and bumped due to careless people! There are some people who never damage other peoples cars, but for some reason other people always manage to damage theirs.
I often see parked cars at supermarkets with trolleys leaning against them, I can't believe how inconsiderate people are.
Rubber bumpers on trolleys may help, but it would probably cost too much (when they buy thousands of trolleys). The trolleys would probably hit different cars in different places too, so they'd need to cover the whole thing in rubber. Even then, I still wouldn't want a trolley touching my car, especially if I've spend days polishing, and waxing it.
A car body made of unpainted aluminium or plastic wouldn't rust and then car drivers could stop fretting about all the minor bumps which inevitably happen.
Well if you bump a plastic car then I would expect it to shatter quite easily, unless it is very thick. Plastic is also very soft, maybe softer than paint? Cheap plastics would also discolour very badly in the sun.
|
|
I do think manufacturers sometimes make silly decisions in the name of styling improvements though. In relation to this thread one which springs to mind is the removal of the bump strips from the sides of the run-out models of the Mondeo 3. Those models are just waiting for a runaway trolley !
|
Humph
But the Mondeo looks like a different car without them (huge improvement in my opinion)! More practically, whilst strips may be good as against walls etc, surely their height does not coincide with the impact point of a shopping trolley?
|
Clearly you must shop at far more upmarket establishments than me OC. Ones which can afford angular styling on their trolleys. Aldi ones have vertical sides and fronts and are adequately deflected by bump strips.
;-)
|
|
|
More practically whilst strips may be good as against walls etc surely their height >> does not coincide with the impact point of a shopping trolley?
Ah, I don't think removing is that stupid, I think it's probably more stupid to have them. On my car (not a Mondeo), if I open the doors into a wall the metal hits before the rubber. This also tells me that the if a trolley went into the car then it would probably hit the metal first too.
|
|
|
|
|
A car body made of unpainted aluminium or plastic wouldn't rust and then car drivers could stop fretting about all the minor bumps which inevitably happen.
one word DeLorean......unpainted aluminium didnt do much for him
|
"one word DeLorean......unpainted aluminium didnt do much for him "
Second and third words... stainless steel. The DeLorean was not aluminium ;-) Body panels were also not structural. Most modern volume production cars have the body panels as part of the structure.
But the cost of stainless steel cars! Painted or unpainted, if they were a good idea to stop rusting they would have done this. Galvanising steel seems to have been the more economic option.
Few of us on this forum understand enough about car design and engineering to have a valid opinion.
Edited by rtj70 on 01/01/2009 at 00:41
|
But the cost of stainless steel cars! Painted or unpainted if they were a good idea to stop rusting they would have done this.
Car makers do things that are good for their business. Those may or may not be things that are good for their customers, but remember that the makers' business model relies on cars being replaced as often as possible, not on making their products long-lasting.
You're right that galvanising has been the favoured option so far, but it wasn't until the 1980s and 1990s that most manufacturers began following even that cheap option, after decades of producing rust-buckets.
|
>Car makers do things that are good for their business ..
Of course they do, NW. But we are frequently reminded that after our houses, our cars may be our biggest investment, so it seems natural for owners to try and maintain the (trade-in) value of their cars. But when they complain at others eroding that value, you castigate the makers for concentrating on appearance. Doesn't make sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
