I've seen this a few times as a pedistrian, this is going to be hard to explian but I wll try my best.
You have a junction where there is lights but no filter, you want to turn right, but what if there is a pedistrian sequence on the road you want to turn into? How do you know if the lights have changed when there isn't any? On these junctions you go through on green then get in position and wait till the exist is clear then go, so how can their be a pedistrian sequence right next to it? I am right in assuming the pedistrian bit detects when the cars have all cleared the exist then changes?
I've also noticed at the four banks in Chorlton [Manchester] where an identical type junction exists there same thing happens, but here a lot of cars go through the pedistrian sequence even though the green man is on so many cars just go past unaware, it is no common in fact it must be a fault with the road design rather than bad driving?
I hope the above make ssense.
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The only junctions I have come across like this (and they are quite common) don't let many cars into the area across the stop line and before where they have to wait - max 3 or 4.
It only takes a few seconds of 'all red' to clear the junction, so that seems to be the delay before the pedestrian lights go green. I don't think there are any sensors to tell the lights when the junction is clear.
I'd guess poor design or timing.
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Rattle
At least two on here have offered to help you... I did some of my learning in Chorlton area... passed at the Whalley Range test centre.
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Thanks I plan to do a bit of driving with my dad when he gets back later next week. I was more confused by the design of these things, I know what to do, I just find it strange how the pedistrian sequence can know if cars are still trying to turn right or not. I was talking about the Barlow Moor Road and Hardy Lane junction if you know it. It seems to be one of them junctions were a roundabout or filter system would work so much better.
I actually used my car three times today and felt I got a bit more confident. I might even venture into your area next week or so as I need to go to Microdirect and although the upperbrook street store is near the one in Heaton Chapel/Levenshulme is a bit more of a drive. I would probably go down Heaton Moor Road rather than Crossley Road though as I know that area better.
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What's the problem? The pedestrians' green man doesn't appear during the time when traffic has a green light. It's nothing to do with whether any traffic is actually there.
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Matnee on the street bit that is not a problem but how does it know if there is traffic waiting to turn in? As the lights straight ahead may well be on red by the time the exist it clear thus the pedistrian sequence could be on, but there must be something in the system designed to know if cars are still waiting to turn into the road? And the cars can't just stop in the middle of the junction because the lights are changed as the exit needs to be cleared. My guess is there could be a sensor under the road which knows there is some traffic waiting and only when they pass the second sensor the pedistrian sequence could come, it explains why it sometimes seems to take 5 mins for the pedistrian bit to come on after the pressing the button.
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Apologies, I missed the point of your question.
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Manatee is quite right. I use 4 banks corner every day and have done for over 40 yrs.
The green man ( men?) don't come on until all the vehicle lights are on red. Now this junction has been re-designed, there is often a lot of traffic stuck in the middle for some time after the reds come on. For some reason there is only half a yellow box here. I would advise anyone turning right to do so as soon as the green men go out, if you can see them, rather than block the road.....however, give way to any pedestrians and be very careful passing the pedestrian bit Historically, many of us old hands still refer to this spot as 'Kemp's Corner' after the chemists which was where the HSBC is now.
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I might go and stand in that corner tomorrow and observe the traffic flow in that junction. I always avoid turning right there as it confuses me even as a pedistrian! If I am stood outside Subway waiting to cross towards Abbey National the green man may be on but there is often still 2 or 3 cars driving straight through, what are they doing wrong?
It might be too many people trying to get into the junction, I will have a look tomorrow to see if I can work out what is happening. I just don't want to be one of them who end up driving through a pedistrian sequence when they have right of way.
I don't remember Kemps but have seen the reference before, some people think I am old fashioned for calling the bus station Chorlton Office.
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In the OPs example, surely the pedestrian phase will have its own turn of green men, when all traffic has red lights?
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I think the OP is concerned about vehicles 'marooned' in the middle of the junction for long enough for the green man to come on. This rarely happens due to the 'phantom phase' which is usually several seconds long these are to allow a delay for the safe transition from one phase to another. There are a few junctions which are poorly designed and one has to have their wits about them and not blindly accept the signals.
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I'll have a meatball special without Jalapinos, please. Nowt wrong with being old fashioned, it's always been Chorlton Office to me. You are living in the past somewhat....Abbey lost the 'National' a while back. Keep up the good work.
I can tell you a lot about old Chorlton as we seem to be neighbours. I am quite happy for the Mod to let you have my Email address, if that is the done thing, to save using this forum.
Ted
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I hope the above make ssense.
I tthink it ddoes.
;-)
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I would just be watching the waiting pedestrians feet as I cleared the yellow box - to see if they were going to step out, regardless of what `green or red man` lights were on.
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I'd have thought, now its a little clearer, that the problem is mainly caused by the type of driver who goes through on red (or what he thinks is amber/red!). If the cars are waiting to turn and this character is coming the other way and goes through then that prevents them from moving and uses up that small amount of time they had to turn before the green man... The other scenario is with the same character but he's now truning right and when the lights change to red he still goes instead of waiting even though he's crossing the line on red to do it!
I'm surprised that "right of way" hasn't cropped up... as the pedestrian has now got the green light, that surely gives them right of way, which leaves the poor turning motorist a bit stranded?!
Edited by b308 on 29/12/2008 at 09:10
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Only in France is there a green light for traffic to filter left/right, and ALSO at the same time a green light for pedestrians to cross perpendicular to that flow of traffic.
BEWARE!
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Doesn't Germany use those filter signs that allow you to turn right but also have to give way to pedestrians crossing on a green man?
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Signal design practice would require there to be a sufficiently long "intergreen" period at the end of the phase before the green man comes up. As a motorist you'd experience this as period when all traffic signals are at red - and the red man is on.
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Stood at the junction again which a few people here know (Four banks) and again a car went through when the green man was on. It seems the problem at this junction is it does not allow enough buffer to allow for people going through on the later amber stages. I could clearly see how the timings work but it is a very busy junction so allowing extra buffer would just create traffic jams.
So what I have learnt is when turning right at a junction like this or indeed anywhere stop on amber unless it really really really is too late. If you do go through on amber there is a big chance you will get stuck and then get a rather angry pedistrian such as my self knocking on your bonnet (I have done that once before).
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>Germany
It *did*, but only in the East. I have a feeling they still do in the East.
But at least with a permanent filter sign you know to watch out for pedestrians. In France they're quite happy to give both parties a green light.
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