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The question is surely not "what will the vote be?", rather "how will the vote be manipulated to suit the government's wishes?" Statistics and lies, and all that.
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Isn't the vote based on Local Authority areas?
I thought that there had to be a majority YES in at least 7 of the 10 LAs to get this through.
So working out the overall majority won't determine which way it goes.
Stockport, Trafford and probably Bury will go No, Salford may also go NO, so then it will be scrapped.
The overall vote could be a majority yes, but as long as 4 LA areas have a NO majority it won't get through.
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That's correct Jonathan.
I think it will be 8 boroughs No, 2 Yes
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The Evening News website is down, probably full of BMW drivers stuck on the A34 trying to get the results. Or Audi drivers currently driving at 110mph on the M6 trying to logon as you do.
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5 minute delay to announcement - still time to getr your predictions in!
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So its probably a no, but they are trying to find ways of getting round it.
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Rejected :-) Listening now.
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It's a NO!!!
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What a surprise though... not.
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"A majority in all 10 boroughs voted against".
Tough one to spin to a "Yes"!!
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Oh well, if people prefer gridlock, then they'll get gridlock.
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I think people would prefer a reasonable system, which is clearly not what was proposed.
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Anyone who got a ballot paper would surely have noticed the incredible amount of propaganda for a "yes". Even the ballot paper itself, next to where you stuck your cross, was still egging you on to vote yes. I don't think they do that anywhere else, even in Zimbabwe!
This was about power-crazed local authority anti-car zealots who thought we the lucky and grateful people would all get on buses with happy smiling faces. The buses round here are half empty even in rush hour and frankly they are unpleasant places to be. The C-plan didn't address the ring road problems either. And half of us have work journies that are totally impractical by public transport.
A lot of people are staggering journies too. I went into manc at 6.30 am today and just wooshed straight in! Let market forces decide and not our commissars!
and please no carbon footprint drivel.
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A lot of people are staggering journies too. I went into manc at 6.30 am today and just wooshed straight in! Let market forces decide and not our commissars!
Market forces are not a magic wand. Without any pricing mechanism for use of the roads at busy times, how will market forces reduce congestion?
And without an improved public transport infrastructure, how will people have an alternative to increasing congestion by using their cars?
This process was fascinating, because we often hear car drivers saying that before constraining car use, the public transport improvements should be put in place first. Here was a proposal to do just that, and it was turned down. That's why it looks to me like a vote for gridlock.
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I think a lot of people found the incessant propaganda offensive, and if they were wavering they might have reacted against it.
One of the "improvements" we were offered round here was a refurbishment of a train station. Wow. No doubt with pictures of happy commuters and at vast expense. Same old stinky trains though!
If my journey is 2 buses and a train, and a load of walking in the rain, then what improvement is going to make that easier? I know - driving my car.
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The actual result was 79:21 against according to The Times.
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Congestion is self regulating. Always has been. Once it takes too long to get somewhere then people change times of travel, move or make alternatives. You don't need any artificial road pricing to achieve this. Road pricing interferes with this and affects the less well off unfairly. If the roads are clogged then people will want alternatives that actually go where they want and when they want. Bus companies just run what they want and don't seem to take into account needs of commuters as buses are usually full of OAPS, benefit claimants and students who don't have to be anywhere in a hurry. Businesses should also be offering alternative travel to work schemes, or flexible working or at home working. There are plenty of alternatives that don't involve forcing people out of their preferred mode of transport.
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So to discourage use of cars in cities, and encourage the use of alternative travel to work schemes, actually *narrow* the roads to make car travel more difficult! Cor!
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"Oh well, if people prefer gridlock, then they'll get gridlock."
I'm sorry but this attitude IS precisely the problem! Even after the vote it's "oh they just don't know what's good for them".
Road pricing generally will arrive, whether we vote for it or not however. Our colleagues in Brussels have deemed road pricing as a means to fund the costlier-than-expected European satellite project.
It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "gridlock" which is an inaccurate way to describe congestion.
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>>"oh they just don't know what's good for them".
You weren't expecting graceful concession though, were you?
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No NC! I guess not.
Some folks will always be more than sure that majority opinion is wrong. They tend on the left funnily. And tend on the pro-European. And tend to read the Guardian and laugh at people who buy the Daily Mail.
Superiority complexes are amusing for the rest of us though; I'd miss them if they disappeared up their own fundament, as is likely.
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And traffic going into Manchester is not grid-locked.
And of the £3bn promised, about £1.5bn already exists for transport improvement.
And try to keep this to discussing congestion charging/motiring so we do not veer off into polictics.
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To FocusDriver: Well, if the majority is always right, how come the Ford Escort was the best selling car for decades, despite being inferior to most of its competitors? Especially in the 90s?
Baaaaaa.
However, on this issue, the people have spoken. And that should be that. Just as the Irish should not be in the poisiton of having to repeat themselves on Lisbon.
I happen to think that the only two possible ways to ever solve congestion are to price people off the roads or ban cars. Even if public transort were to be brilliant and free, people would still prefer to go door to door in their warm little car, so lolng as they could afford to do so. If you try to address congestion any other way, it will simply come back once people see the roads are less busy. A viscious circle.
We are stuck with congestion until such time as people can no longer afford individual transport or it is banned. And even though I live in a heavily congested area, I really don't mind that much. The alternatives to my car for my daily activites are not pleasant.
A congestion charging scheme will only become a truly congestion reducing measure once it's priced at about 500 quid a day. Clarckson may be a buffoon, but he was right about that. Anything else is just taxation.
Edited by Alanovich on 12/12/2008 at 14:07
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hallelulah one up for the good guys
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Democracy doesn't mean accepting that the majority are right; it just means accepting the a decision has been made (something which the EU doesn't understand).
In this case, I don't see anyone arguing for ignoring the decision made in the referendum; it was a democratic decision, so it stands.
Respect for a decision with which one disagrees is not only logically possible in a democracy, it's the very essence of democracy. Oppositions don't sit back and cheer all that a government does; they uphold its right to make decisions, while continuing to point out why they think the govt is wrong.
Same goes in this case. The majority has made its decision, and that decision should be upheld. But those of us who disagree with the rejection of the charge have every right to hold to the view that simply allowing congestion to increase towards gridlock is a dumb and short-sighted thing to do.
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Surely reducing congestion could be achieved by reversing 8 years of congestion creation schemes, and then carrying on with a programme of further upgrades. If you look at the roads during rush hour, you will see that they are mostly empty, with slugs of vehicles stuck in bottlenecks. The Road Camera Safety Partnership should be scrapped and a Slug Reduction Team created with the savings.
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Surely reducing congestion could be achieved by reversing 8 years of congestion creation schemes
You mean removing the traffic calming measures which allow other road users (pedestrians and cyclists) to get around in safety.
The Road Camera Safety Partnership should be scrapped and a Slug Reduction Team created with the savings.
First mistake: if the cameras are revenue-raisers, as is routinely claimed claimed by their critics, then removing them will not release savings to be spent elsewhere.
Second mistake: if a bottleneck is eliminated, the road traffic simply expands to the capacity of the next most severe bottleneck. There's mountains of evidence accumulated over the years that increasing road capacity doesn't solve congestion problems, it simply displaces and defers them. The way to reduce road congestion is to reduce demand for road transport, whether by price signals (such as tools or congestion charges) or providing more efficient alternatives (public transport, walking, cycling) , or by measures which reduce the need for journeys.
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Now this harebrained scheme has been so overwhelmingly rejected by voters, I would like to see an enquiry held to establish how the collateral sent to voters was allowed to be so leading, propaganda filled, and so clearly in favour of a 'yes' vote? Aren't these things supposed to be impartial?
Still, at least the scam failed. Result!
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I'm surprised that public can actually say to NO to congestion charging!
Did London residents say yes to CC?
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They voted in a mayor who made no secret of his intention to introduce the charge, so sadly they did.
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London also had the situation of millions using public transport everyday, so the charge wouldn't directly affect so many people. Business owners were the ones who had the biggest issue with it.
If London charging was to be for all traffic entering into the area bounded by the M25 there may have been more of a stance against it.
If the Manchester zone was tight like London the response may have been different.
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First mistake: if the cameras are revenue-raisers, as is routinely claimed claimed by their critics, then removing them will not release savings to be spent elsewhere.
Second mistake: if a bottleneck is eliminated, the road traffic simply expands to the capacity of the next most severe bottleneck. There's mountains of evidence accumulated over the years that increasing road capacity doesn't solve congestion problems, it simply displaces and defers them. The way to reduce road congestion is to reduce demand for road transport, whether by price signals (such as tools or congestion charges) or providing more efficient alternatives (public transport, walking, cycling) , or by measures which reduce the need for journeys.
The 2 "mistakes" referred to above are not mistakes. Cameras might be revenue raisers - so do you say, well, keep them, because we need the money? Speeding fines are not hypothecated, they just get absorbed into the pot.
second - there's no point in getting rid of bottlenecks, because they just spring up elsewhere? Right... that's why I don't get washed. I'll only get dirty later.
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sorry! didnt mean to quote all that other post!!!!
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The 2 "mistakes" referred to above are not mistakes. Cameras might be revenue raisers - so do you say well keep them because we need the money? Speeding fines are not hypothecated they just get absorbed into the pot.
No, keep them because they help to enforce speed limits and are funded only by the speedsters who choose t ignore the posted limits.
The suggestion was that cameras should be scrapped so that the costs of running them could be spent on other measures, and that is nonsense because if you scrap the cameras you scarp the revenues which fund them. Whether or not the revenues are hypothecated is an irrelevant accounting game: if the treasury makes a grant to run the cameras and banks the fines which cover the costs, then scrapping the revenues removes the funds used to run them unless further funds are obtained from elsewhere.
So cameras or no cameras, the treasury needs new funds to pay for the measures advocated.
second - there's no point in getting rid of bottlenecks, because they just spring up elsewhere? Right... that's why I don't get washed. I'll only get dirty later.
Wrong, 'cos it's a bad analogy. If you get washed, do you promptly go out and roll in the mud like Piglet in Winnie-the-Pooh?
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A Labour supporter thinks it was wrong:
www.labourhome.org/story/2008/12/12/75625/392
swatantra on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:34:43 PM GMT
Well turkeys don?t usually vote for Xmas. Its like asking someone would they mind paying more taxes. The question should never have been put to a referendum. The Council should just have gone ahead and done it. Same with Regional Government. Some questions should never go to the electorate to decide, because they will not make an informed judgment, but vote on prejudices.
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madf you must be in a small minority there. You're not an EU commissioner by any chance?
Sometimes the people make decisions our political masters don't like. It drives em nuts.
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Looking at the wider picture of using public transport instead of the car. When I went to Stevenage this week, travelling down mid-afternoon and back around 6pm.... guess how much a standard class return was - no looking it up.
Okay I'll save the bother. Round trip would have been about 370 miles so at a guess in a diesel then a lot less than £50 both ways (depends on traffic). Return train plus taxis this end (able to walk that end to hotel and lift back to station)... total was £120.40. Now that is an incentive to use public transport ;-)
Being lucky to be near a main bus route into Manchester and a local station we use the train to get into Manchester (usually £1.80 return off peak). Only time we take the car is the theatre trips when the trains will have stopped before we come back.
On a Sunday, if we go into Manchester the train (two carriages) is usually close to being full... so people already do use these services.
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The BBC news reports have been typically one-sided. The 'Yes' campaign saying how sorry they are at the result. Nothing on the 'No' camaign celebrating this democratic result. Sad.
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By being an old(ish) person and booking well in advance I can do Grantham to Bracknell for £16 return plus £2 delay insurance which I choose to take as I am booked on specific time trains and if I miss a connection I have to pay the ludicrous 'Fare of the day". However, the same way as there are blocked motorways and other traumas and delays so there are foul ups on the trains. Yesterday I was travelling from Newcastle to Grantham but had to change at Doncaster; 40 minute connection turned into 70 minutes due to train delays; whole time spent in an unheated waiting room with 3 sets of automatic doors which opened and then stayed open for a minute, whenever anybody came in or walked past them, thus letting all the cold air in. A train turned up going to Grantham but as I was booked on a specific train I had to wait for it even though it was delayed. I set out hopefully, however I am travelling, and most of the time, train or car, it doesn't work out too badly.
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The BBC news reports have been typically one-sided.
Didn't see the earlier ones, but the BBC 6pm news item (after your post) seemed fairly even. Quite a few people saying it was the right result.
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Okay I'll save the bother. Round trip would have been about 370 miles so at a guess in a diesel then a lot less than £50 both ways (depends on traffic).
So your car costs 13.5p per mile to run... I'll have one of them, please, what is it??
Edited by b308 on 12/12/2008 at 20:12
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Result indeed. I heard one Yes voter on the radio complaining that this was an opportunity lost to spend money on a better public transport system. WOW there neddy - this government has been taking money hand over fist of the motorists since they seized power nearly 11 years ago. They have had billions in duties and motoring taxes and fines from speed cameras yet have spent virtually naff all on new roads, improved rail networks, new tram routes or any other improvement in public transport. Now they have the gall to complain that with out the charge , they can't afford the required investments. You can only pull the wool over the voters eyes for so long until you run out of wool.
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Lets step back from politics again. So some figures in a format that's HJ forum friendly. First the 10 councils with yes/no as percentages:
Bolton: 21/79
Bury: 21/79
Manchester: 28/72
Oldham: 20/80
Rochdale: 22/78
Salford: 16/84
Stockport: 19/81
Tameside: 16/84
Trafford: 20/80
Wigan:26/74
All based on the BBC figures. Apologies for any of my errors - not double checked. So overall the votes were:
Yes: 218860
No: 812,815
As percentages: 21% Yes, 79% No.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7778110.stm
My percentage figures rounded to nearest whole numbers.
Rob
PS Looking at my edit of my guess last night at 23:37 ;-) My gut feel was pretty close then.
Edited by rtj70 on 12/12/2008 at 17:31
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Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice!
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I really do laugh every time some of you say " lets keep politics out of this ". The whole war on the motorist is driven by political ideology.!
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"I really do laugh every time some of you say " lets keep politics out of this ". The whole war on the motorist is driven by political ideology.! "
But this is a motoring forum - so Mr X keep to motoring and not politics. If you don't like it I'll hold the door open when you're leaving ;-)
Please notice the winking smiley. Humour.
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rtj70 - an inspired guess/calculation on your part! You could moonlight for Betfair or Victor Chandler, setting odds for other events!
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Well I don't win the lottery but do use lucky dip.
But I didn't (and couldn't) edit that post of 23:27 again without changing the timestamp and did put 21/79. No really before anyone one suspects mods have this power. Spooky. Maybe I'll put a bet on something for the first time!
Rob
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Wonder if Rattle did indeed vote yes as he said he was going to?
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I didn't vote. I could not live with myself if I voted 'no' as I would be a hypocrite, however I did not agree with the full scale of the congestion area and I thought the improvements where over the top. I was swaying towards yes, but some very intelligent replies to my thread on here made me think otherwise.
You see before my HJ thread I thought all the 'no' camp where brain dead idiots who had not actually read the proposals, my thread actually showed both sides of the argument in much greater detail than the media.
I have spoken a bit about this in the pub tonight, and most people it seems would be in favour of a Mancunian Way/Trinity Way inner congestion charge, the big problem is that most people thought the M60 innerzone was a far too big area and it would have affected people too much that didn't work in the city centre.
I am now working with a group trying to work out a new proposal which would see less money, for less improvement of public transport, but woudl work on the principle of lots of innercity park and ride schemes keeping traffic out of the city centre where the congestion mostly is.
Another thing that has persuaded me not to vote is a couple of extremely overcrowded bus journeys I have made in the last week, I can't see that changing with the congestion charge.
The only thing I can see working is a London system where the bus and other public transport is heavily regulated. Manchester needs to end this really confusing ticketing system! I have only just started to get the hang of it, after 20 years of using Manchester buses.
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Stop drinking Rattle and go to bed. You're trying to sound like you are part of the local administration of one or more of the ten councils. And not fixing broken PCs. Stop before you embarrass yourself on here. Concentrate on the replacement car for getting to the PCs needing fixing.
I quote: "I am now working with a group trying to work out a new proposal which would see less money..."
And also quote: "M60 innerzone was a far too big area" .... it was the outer zone ;-)
Anyway, all Manchester buses for regular users with travel passes for cheap weekly/monthly transport are fairly simple and good value already. And add trains can be added on too. It's not complicated.
Our son has used them for the last two+ years for about £40pm for unlimited bus use in Greater Manchester. Even NowWheels must think that is a fair price. Just over £1 per day unlimited travel (No offence NowWheels).
Rob (as Rob and not a mod)
Edit: If it's taken 20 years to master Manchester buses, rattle has not noticed the many changes. Does he remember the old "London routemaster buses" on the 143 route (i.e real Routemasters).
Edited by rtj70 on 12/12/2008 at 23:50
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I was refering to MP meetings, which I attended as my MP (John Leech) was for the proposals.
And yep I do remember the routemasters, this was Stagecoach's first invasion into Manchester and they tried to compete with GMSouth Buses. The Routemasters were not a success, but the new Volvos on 192 were. I do remeber the routemasters, but my biggest memory was when Stagecoach took over, and they ordered lots of new Volvo Olympians although these now seem very dated and are now Magicbuses they were years ahead of the Atlantions on offer.
The confusion atm is different routes and different companies. My mate got a daily pass today as he was drinking after work, he didn't realise it would not be valid on his bus home as that was not Stagecoach, the 15 is another example Stagecoach at day, Arriva at night. So it means people with one pass cannot travel after a certain time, on other routes they can, it has caused me many problems in Altrincham. You can get a GMPTE pass, but compared to London prices that is very expensive.
Is your son a student by any chance? It is a lot cheaper if you are, even when I was a student a few years back I was paying £40 a month my my GMPTE pass and was with student discount.
I also meant the outside with regard to the M60.
I have also noticed a big improvement in public transport in my area in the last year or so, which was another reason I did not vote. By not voting I realise I voted No anyway.
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Son is no longer a student. You are telling us you've never heard of SystemOne in Manchester?
www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/pdf/Bus_Network.pdf
Okay it is now the huge sum of £42 for 28 days in the white region of the map above....
If this did not get people of the road then the congestion charge would not ;-)
We go into Manchester on the train (2 x £1.80) because it is quicker, more convenient and cheaper. And when you get there, there are already free shuttle buses to get you about.
Rob
Edited by rtj70 on 13/12/2008 at 00:08
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3. On 5th November 2008, John Leech asked the following question at Prime Minister's Questions:
Mr. Leech: Will the Prime Minister ensure that in the event of a "No" vote the people of Greater Manchester will have the opportunity to come back with an improved scheme without the concern that the Government might take the money away?
The Prime Minister: I know that the voting paper has options for a "Yes" vote and a "No" vote, but I am afraid that there is no option for a "Don't know" vote. In the event of a "No" vote, it would be up to Greater Manchester authorities to decide whether they wanted to do further work on the proposals. The Government are in principle prepared to contribute, as he has said, up to £1.5 billion towards the Greater Manchester package, but that is dependent on the broad scope and nature of the package remaining the same. If Greater Manchester came back with a revised proposition, we would need to assess it on its merits.
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That is the GMPTE card, you can get any bus in Greater Manchester with it, sadly is a bit more than £40 a month these days if you're over 21 and not a student :(. Was £56 the last time I checked which dosn't really make it worth while for me.
I know how the system works, but so many people don't, I have seen so many tourists get completly confused by it. When you ask for a day saver ticket people assume you can use it on any bus, as many cities just have one bus company or places such as London it is all controled by TFL anyway.
The problem Manchester and many big cities have is Maggie deregulated the buses to promote competition but all that has happened is the small campanines have taken over meaning that most teh UK bus network is operated by just four companies which means most areas have no competition at all, the only competition they have is cars and trains, so people who have no access to a train or a car are forced to use that one company what ever their prices are.
Thankfully in Manchester Stagecoach, Arriva and First have recently realised the car is competition and have reduced prices as a result to intice people out of their cars.
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Rattle, you doom monger. Is not the Mega Rider the daily ticket they need and get sold?
As for "Was £56 the last time I checked which dosn't really make it worth while for me."... no it is still £56p.
So for a 5 day working week in GREATER MANCHESTER, for 4 weeks a month that is £2.80 a day now unlimited travel. So instead of paying up to a fiver a day plus parking you can travel on any bus in Greater Manchester for less than £3 and not worry about driving or parking.
Okay from studentville in Withington you might get a return for less per day.
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"And yep I do remember the routemasters, this was Stagecoach's first invasion into Manchester and they tried to compete with GMSouth Buses. "
No they were I believe run by GM Buses. It was the Piccadilly Line.
Edited by rtj70 on 13/12/2008 at 00:15
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You're lucky having that option, our old fiend Mr Beaching ensured I only have two ways of traveling to Manchester, a slow overcrowded bus bus, or the car with very expensive parking, I take the bus and read HJ on the way!
It is nice to see Mr Brown has changed tack a bit, a few months ago he said there would no alternative to a no vote. £1.5 billion would go a long way to improve things and some of the stupid suggestions by GMPTE could be lefted out. There is a really good blog about Manchster buses which suggests a lot of things but I am not sure I am allowed to post the link.
rjj I would have only been about 12 at the time, but I am sure I remember Stagecoach having some involvment of the routemasters, but thinking about it Stagecoach attacked GMS on the 192 route first with their new Volvos, so you were probably right that the routemasters were run by GMS. At the time they would had competition with Walls, MTL, Bullucks and Finglands. Now Stagecoach has taken over Bullocks and UK North have been banned it just leaves Finglands left as Walls went under at least a decade ago.
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Rattle, you claim to live in/near Didsbury (Manchester) that is the busiest bus route in Europe in term time due to student population. Yes they can be a little busy but very frequent. It is the infrequent bit that puts people off public transport.
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I live just under 3 miles from Didsbury Village, and at least 2.5 miles away from Wilmslow Road, without giving away my exact location I am sure you can easily guess. The frequency of the Wimslow road services also seems to depend if the students are at home, atm it is not that good but until my clutch broke I was driving every time I needed to got to the Didsbury/Withington area anyway.
I also think they need to do more about anti sociable behaviour if they want to entice people out of their cars, I hate it when people play loud music or even smoke on buses for example. In the old days I would tell them straight, now I am too scared in case they carry a knife.
Sorry about the large amount of replies, I am sure you're aware by now I am very passionate about moving people hence making enquires about the masters.
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I lived in Fallowfield for about 5 years as a student and later a few years in West Didsbury and Didsbury as a student. Back then busses fine out of university term (less frequent but less crowded).
Unless things have gone down hill (my impression is they are better) then Rattle is playing down how good public transport is in this area.
Edit: If you live that far from Wilmslow Road (the busiest bus route in Europe - well in term time) and that far from Didsbury.... if all in a straight line you might live next door to me in the Heatons. Or Whalley Range.
Edited by rtj70 on 13/12/2008 at 01:04
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It is fine if you want to go to town but that is the problem. A good example I live in area between Stretford and Didsbury (should be obvious where). If I want to go to Fallowfield then the bus is every half hour during the day. It is 2.5 miles away so I can walk there quicker.
I am at Stockport bus station 7:00am, I have once or twice waited more than hour for my bus as it did not turn up.
Getting to town is usualy easy and frequent it is the cross county services which were the problem and the TIF proposals did not really do enoug to address that. I live 35-60 minutes from the trafford centre by bus, 10 minutes by car so although I get the bus when possible there needs to be more done. If I need to get to say Bury then that is very easy.
It is the neigbouring places where I live which suffer in terms of a frequent public transport system, and because I knew nothing would be done is the reason I decided enough was enough and learnt to drive.
Public transport is good in many aspects in Manchester but in my parents day they could get a bus to so many places on their door steps, now everything invovles going into to town and out which can add a good 10 miles onto a journey,and of course two changes.
So yes many things have improved, getting to town has never been easier, but other journeys by public transport just seem to be getting harder and harder.
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"So yes many things have improved, getting to town has never been easier, but other journeys by public transport just seem to be getting harder and harder. "
And why you were right in not voting yes. For you the car is best.
I went to Stevenage on the train this week. So Stockport-Doncaster-Stevenage. You'd not drive that route but that was it. Coming back I had an offer of a lift. They got back first except I had 30 minutes wait before the first train, 40 minutes (delay) for the next train, 5 minutes delay for the drunk missing his stop (police needed). But the generous colleagues didn't have to come into Manchester and thus delay them.
Also I had Internet access (a glitch when editing my 21/79 guess) and watched a movie (on laptop). Was it worth £111? No. But not my money. And the company car froze outside the house.
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Rob the car is indeed best and that is why I did not vote. For many years I have been slightly anti car and pro public transport, but trying to run a business and relying on buses is just too difficult, its fine getting into town far easier in fact but anything else the bus is a pain. I still get to the bus to stockport as the 23 is not too bad during the day if I can put up with the overcrowding, but now I have the car there I have been getting more and more inpatient with the bus and I can soon see myself adopting a solution of just parking on Didsbury Road and walking into the town centre from there! Sorry Heatons residents!
Your train journey sounds rather painful, I use the train a lot and its usualy very relaxing and painless but then I never use them during rush hour.
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"without giving away my exact location I am sure you can easily guess"
Whalley Range?
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Chorlton, so near to Didsbury but very different in terms of public transport. In the past few years my direct link to the airport, Northenden, Wythenshawe have all been cut, and so has services to West Didsbury. I frequently found myself walking back from Didsbury after a job at night as the buses were every hour, the walk was 3 miles which is quite a long way at night, it is a rather boring walk too.
Edit I don't really work in the Heatons much but I do visit the are a lot, there is a direct bus route during the day 23/23A which is not too bad but it is very overcrowded by the time it gets to Chorlton, but at night again it is appalling. I simply could not work round there at night as it would take me well over an hour to get back, and its only 6 miles away.
Edited by Rattle on 13/12/2008 at 01:13
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I lived in Chortlon in 1990/91 :-) Bus into Manchester via Whalley Range/Hulme/Moss Side was fair back then. There was the 86/87 (?) circular route with prices the same each way. What's happened since? Other busses too.
I lived on Cross Road so a good bike shop and chinese nearby on Barlow Moor Road. Opposite the Irish Club car park.
You seem sensitive on Chorlton Cum Hardy though. You suddenly say you live miles from Didsbury... :-) Chortlon and the Wheelies and Dangermouse from Chorlton (Cosgrove Hall). Chorlton on Medlock is the Manchester Uni area.
We once walked in snow and ice (due to the crap 188 service) from Chortlon to Belle Vue for the cinema (Showcase). This was the first multi-screen in Manchester. We then walked back. Bad timing on our part for buses ;-) It was 1990.
Rob
PS I work from home when possible to not pay for diesel.
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I live in Chorlton Cum Hardy I didn't really want to say where I lived but it is a big area and in the context of my replies it would not make any sense unless I said.
The 188 is now probably the 168, runs from Chorlton Office [yes us locals still call it that it confuses the influx of posh southerners :D], to Ashton via Fallowfield, Longsight etc but the service is still too unreliable and I walk or get the 85 half way down if I need to get to Fallowfield.
The 85/86 still runs and is fairly frequent, can be every 5 minutes but usualy its every 10-12 with 2 or 3 buses turning up at once, one full the other empty. It is a nightmare leaving picciddily as you never know which bus leaves first, some take 25 minutes some take 45 minutes, so I now tend to get the bus from Portland street to be sure I get the first one out.
The 47/46 also still runs but the service has been cut back although it has been improved a little slightly in September. It is now a Magicbus so that students use it down Wilsmlow Road.
The 84 now only runs to Nell Lane estate on Nell lane, again until recently it ran a lot more frequently and went all the way to the airport, now its a pretty useless service compared to what it was.
The 23/23 A run from Stockport to the Trafford Centre via Stretford, Chorlton, Didsbury Village and the Heatons.
So what has happened in the past 15 years is the main routes into the city centre have improved for the better, and are extremely busy but it makes them regular, but the services which went much further have now been shurnk and run a lot less. The only bus that goes down Hardly lane for example is now the 84.
I have an old GMS time table from 1991, and looking at it you can see there was more choice of buses, you could go a lot further on one bus the frequency was less. If you just want to go to town it is a lot better today, anywhere else it was better in 1991.
One thing I will say it is a lot cheaper today, according to the advert on the back of the timetable a weekly GMs pass was £10 a week, when Stagecoach took over in 1996 they reduced the price to £5.00, today it is £10.00 which is a bargain compared to 1991 prices! Single fairs have gone up by a huge margin though, a single on the 86 to town now is about £2.10.
One other big difference is there is a lot more traffic on the roads, the 1991 timetable allowed 25 minutes from Nell Lane to Picciddily on the 86, today the shorter route of Chorlton Office to Picciddily would take 35 to 40 minutes.
PS That bike shop has now closed, it is now an off licence of some sort, but the main one Ken Fosters is still going strong and is full of what I call Chorltinates, trendy people trying to save the world with their bush bikes and Unicorn grocery bag.
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Chorlton brings back memories. I lived in Nicolas Road for a couple of years in the 70's.
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Rattle said "I have spoken a bit about this in the pub tonight, and most people it seems would be in favour of a Mancunian Way/Trinity Way inner congestion charge, the big problem is that most people thought the M60 innerzone was a far too big area and it would have affected people too much that didn't work in the city centre."
Exactly the point almost everyone I know has made. It would have affected me directly as my offices are just outside Trinity Way next to Salford University. My staff would have gone ape of the charge would have come in. A woman in the same building lives in Glossop and attempts to get into the office for about 9:10am by public transport. I think she makes that time about one day every fortnight. Every day there is another snarl up that is nothing to do with congestion, but everything to do with why most people avoid public transport for commuting.
Also there are so many bottlenecks created by the councils which if removed would remove congestion and reduce pollution. Outside my old house on Bury Old Road they installed a bus lane in about 1995. Before hand, traffic would flow past easily every morning all the way into Manchester. The day the bus lane went operational, traffic was backed up three miles and the smell of fumes in my house was appalling. A pointless exercise in socialist traffic engineering.
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A lot of the A6 from Stockport into Manchester is a part-time bus-lane. It used to flow so much better without it. That's progress for you.
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I should warn people I have been to pub again, a bad buy of car turns people into an aclie.
Anyway...
I am sure the A6 bus lane has made traffic worse, however I am also sure it has imrproved the speed of the 192 bus service.
Where I live most the bus lanes are part time, however nobody goes in them, the signs clearly say it is not in operation yet people in Audis wearing anti con charge stickers would rather be stuck in traffic beeping at me for whizzing past them in my old Fiesta. Well guess what you idiots if you bothered to buy a copy of the Highway code you would realise most bus lanes are only in operation during peak times.
For what it is worth there is a bus lane on the 86 near me, pirioty is given to car traffic which oftens hels up the buss for a good five minutes. This the Manchester Road Upper Chorlton Road junction.
I will also add at this point that traveling at the 192 at peak hour cannot be much fun so I do not entiely blame people for wanting to take their car instead. I sometimes get the 192 off pak and I can feel my bloood preasure rising so much.
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I think I am right in saying that in order to appease their govt masters, councils were required to implement a minimum mileage of bus / cycle lanes in their borough ?
So in my town there is a bus lane of just under a mile which has removed the first lane of each side of the dual carr for a 24/7 period.
However, the bus time tables for that route indicate only 3 buses an hour on peak and two off. Services start at 6.30 am and finish at 11.15pm. There is only one hourly bus on Sundays.
What a complete farce .
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Do the signs actually say 24/7? I'd be surprised if they do... On the Hagley road there is a bus lane (main route into Brum) but even that is only 7 to 7 and many in Brum are even less than that!
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Rejoice away guys - you are all such saps up there in manchester - you really think you have some say or control over local or national transport policy?
You will have a congestion charge in three years anyway - No vote or not.
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I'm not rejoicing as such. I know that there will be problems as a result of the No vote. It's just that the details of scheme were so biased and the promotion of the scheme so heavy handed that most people voted no just to give the politicians a good kicking.
There is no doubt that there needs to be some change to the traffic policy in Greater Manchester, but to throw all the costs onto drivers is ridiculous.
If there was a properly designed integrated public transport system, which could show certain specific benefits (measured independently) then drivers may have voted for the scheme, as many would see that they could leave their cars at home.
But, people like my secretaries who would be crossing two zones and bring their cars to the office so they can do the weekly shop on the way home, would never take public transport. If I moved my otfice to the city centre, then they may voted yes, but as none us actually really wants to be in the city centre, the vote was always going to be No.
I certainly can't do my job without a car. Do you really think I was going to vote Yes?
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A lot of the councils were also against it.
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AE, I can say with some authority that on this you are wrong.
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AE I can say with some authority that on this you are wrong.
is that fact or a hope? you know that no central government wil take local transport policy away and impose charges from thrush central?
This government is spending money it hasnt got to prop up the economy. Sums of money so vast they may never be paid back. in 3 to 5 years time, burdened by such debt government will need to look at ways of raising extra revenue. To use congestion and road charging caries with it a quasi aura of "greenness"
Rejoice now as in 3 to 5 years time you will have congestion charges in manchester, and as a bonus the local council wont have any of the revenue. Under existing transport powers government can road charge anywhere they like including metropolitan regions.
think about it - it makes sense, why road charge the roads, when its easier (technology and logistically) to charge at destination or departure?
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Fact.
Where is thrush central....sounds a bit unpleasant?
The Transport Act gives local transort authorities the power to impose local charging, but after this drubbing (and Edinbrgh) that is automatic suicide for local politicians.
The only way that Manchester or anywhere else will have road pricing is as part of a national scheme. 3-5 years is waaaaaay over-optimistic for that. Manchester didn't have a chance of getting its scheme in place by the target of 2013.
I could cope with a national scheme but the Manchester scheme was a real Frankenstein job of left over bits of policy and unconnected investments.
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There is no plate attached indicating the hours in which it operates , i.e 6am to 9am or such like, which as I understand it, makes it a bus lane 24/7.
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Yep exactly the same as single yellows, if there are no plates its 24/7. I admit the system is a bit flawed though, I only know the times of the bus lanes and fo course double check but if I was new an area I would keep out of the lane until I saw a sign which says I can go on.
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I was new an area I would keep out of the lane until I saw a sign which says I can go on.
That's why I do. It seems to me that there is a big flaw in the way bus lanes are signed, because it's usually impossible to know whether you're allowed to use it until some distance after the start where a sign will list the times in small print. Unfortunatley the writing is nearly always so small that reading it involves taking eyes off the road for too long, so it's usually best to just assume that it's a 24/7 buslane.
There really should be some sort of standardisation of bus lanes, so that the type of operation could be displayed in a simple big code. Something like type 1 with a red sign is 24/7, type 2 with a yellow sign is 7-10 and 4-7, or something like that.
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Would like to know why we have 24 hour bus lanes in areas that don't have a 24 hour bus service. I realise taxis can use them but is that fair seeing as how taxis are not really public transport. A taxi business is no different from a plumbing business or such like as they too use the public roads to carry out their business. How often do you see a taxi with just the driver and one passenger . Quite often is my experience.
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It is daft, as a bus user myself bus lanes do make a big difference at peak times when you consider a bus runs every 3 minutes with 100 people on it, thats around 3300 an hour being shift say during 7:30 to 8:30. Imagine if each of them drove, that is another 3300 cars on the road!
However I am dubious about the bus lanes in less peak routes, there is one opposite the Southern Cemetery and the maximum peak buses run down there is about one every 10 minutes but it more like 1 every 15-20 minmutes.
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Rattle, Not a bus user myself but do use Metrolink. I agree with you about the bus lanes here. There is a stupid one on Manchester Road opposite the library where cars are forced into the middle of the road only to meet cars coming the other way who have to use the same lane due to parked vehicles. It's only a short lane and it's followed by an ever shorter one of about 30ft. Likewise the bus lanes by Longford park, You have to use the bus lane to pass cars turning right or the whole road would gridlock...and there are hardly any buses to use it.
In spite of the no vote, I shall still be getting the Metrolink at the bottom of my garden in 2011 with a station 100 yds from home.
Ted
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Yeah I know the one, Manchester Road is kaos anyway especialy around school times without the stupid extra traffic calming and flow systems in place. I am looking forward to the metrolink coming too, at the moment I have to walk down to Old Trafford stop which takes me a good 15 minutes.
Which bus lane do you mean near longford park? I only ever really go down Edge Lane from Kings Road into Chorlton, I often go that way to Didsbury as it is easy than trying to turn into Manchester Road so the only thing I have noticed round that area is far too many speed cameras!
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Just looked back on some earlier posts and see that it has become a bit of a Chorlton cum Hardy thread. I have lived here since 1945 with a couple of breaks and was once the beat constable for the village centre. One motoring link concerns the cafe that Rattle mentioned. Before it was cafe/ bike shop/tile centre/ etc it was a milk bar. As teenagers with motorcycles we used to put a record on the juke box, jump on your bike and try to get to Manchester Crematorium and back before the record ended. About 1963/4. happy days Not many good shops now compared with then, shuttered up at night so no window shopping. I think there were 21 wine bars and eateries at the last count.
Ted
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The bus lane is on Edge Lane but on the other side to your journey, opposite the park. And what about those signs which flash at you to slow down 'cos it's 30 MPH when you are only doing 28....some form of electronic libel ?
Ted
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It seems to the car behind you they target, if there is nothing behind me I never get flashed, if there is I usualy do. I can picture the bus lane you mean now, just after Turn Moss road.
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I pass about 5 on this road on my way to Flixton. They flash when there is nothing behind on many occasions. Sometimes they flash for the car in front which has cleared by 200 yds whilst they are still lit up. No rhyme or reason.. I don't think they will affect 'serial' speeders, it's probably a challenge to light them all up !
I think Metrolink has been a little shortsighted in it's projected lines, instead of the current terminus it should have gone the extra short run to Princess Road where there is ample room for a park and ride on the busiest road in from the south into the city. The trackbed is there and clear, apart from some greenery. Bearing left at St Werburghs Road, the old Chorlton Junction, there is the trackbed of the Fairfield Loop, leading back into the city and crossing all routes in from the south. Now built upon in places, such a loss of a capital asset.
Ted
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There really should be some sort of standardisation of bus lanes so that the type of operation could be displayed in a simple big code. Something like type 1 with a red sign is 24/7 type 2 with a yellow sign is 7-10 and 4-7 or something like that.
I've suggested before that bus lane tarmac is colour coded so you know what the restrictions are at a glance, e.g. red for 24 hour, green for peak hours, etc. In my area it seems to change randomly from red to green depending on the location.
There is the problem that colour blind people might have problems with the scheme, so you would also need signs to back them up, but it would solve the problem for the vast majority of road users.
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