Rubbish! Bikes don't normally hold cars up. They're usually past and away.
I thought we were talking about motorcyclists riding between 2 rows of traffic stationary at traffic lights etc, in which case the most they will achieve is getting a few car-lengths nearer the front of the queue. Big deal.
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I always help bikers to get past (move over to the left, indicate to let them know they can pass and that I'm aware of them), most aknowledge as they pass. But when you come accross a future biker on his ped on a faster A road do they do the same for me, no chance, mile after mile they hog the centre line with an ever longer queue behind them and what do they do once they've ripped up their L plates and bought a bike capable of double the national speed limit (and then some), they moan about poor driving standards and being able to pass mimsing car drivers. Pot , kettle, black.
;o)
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Don't quite understand why people feel the need to let them pass , especially if the traffic is already traveling at the legal limit for the road they are on. We are all going from A to B, why should we be trying to let some one else get there a bit quicker by altering our driving in order for them to do so. ?
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Don't quite understand why people feel the need to let them pass
Its called common courtesy, what on earth can be gained by holding someone up who can benefit by considerate driving practices.
Like those that block side roads and large entrances etc off when queueing, just a little thought if capable makes all traffic flow so much better.
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If they are traveling above the speed limit for the particular stretch of road you are on, then surely you are aiding and abetting an offence ?
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Thing is MrX, you don't know the reason for someone's apparent speeding. Yes, of course, 99.99% of the time it may be for no 'good' reason. But, maybe, they're on their way to a dying relative or some other distressful & urgent family or friend emergency. Perhaps they're a doctor or other emergency specialist , maybe they're carrying a a donor kidney to the far end of the country etc etc.
The fact is, by holding someone up you're simply amplfying their need & maybe even increasing the chances you'll be involved in an accident.
I remember once riding my bicycle along a very narrow long road in Brighton - just room for one car - I'd nearly been side-swiped by cars squeezing past on several occasions, so that time I'd dteremined to simply hold my ground & make any following car wait until we'd reached the end. Anyway, a car comes up behind, I stayed where I was - pretty soon he was tooting & swearing out of his window, " If you don't move I'll just something-well knock you off" . I moved. Minutes later I saw him pick up a young child standing by the busy road - maybe there was no danger to her, I don't know, but it did give me a bit more understanding - we don't always know the full story.
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'maybe, they're on their way to a dying relative or some other distressful & urgent family or friend emergency.'.
There must be an awful lot of ill and distressed people in Buxton then if the A6 on a weekend is anything to go by.!
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Well , MrX, that's missing the point soemwhat. Taking one particular instance of emergency & applying it universally to a situation that's probably in the 99.99% non-emergency type of instances. Sorry you can't see the wider picture.
Edited by woodbines on 29/11/2008 at 12:33
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a car comes up behind I stayed where I was - pretty soon he was tooting & swearing out of his window " If you don't move I'll just something-well knock you off" . I moved. Minutes later I saw him pick up a young child standing by the busy road - maybe there was no danger to her I don't know but it did give me a bit more understanding - we don't always know the full story.
So he was prepare to cause an injury to you in order to avoid a possibility of risk to someone else?
That's straightforward bullying, and I hope you reported him. Next time, it could have been his child on the bike.
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If they are traveling above the speed limit for the particular stretch of road you are on then surely you are aiding and abetting an offence ?
Nope, I'm obeying the Highway Code: see para 168 at tinyurl.com/5eoz37 which says "Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass"
It's up to me to drive my car legally and up to the other driver or rider to drive their vehicle legally. It's not to up me to either enforce or police their driving; if I have a problem I can call the police, though sadly these days they usually don't bother unless there has been a crash :(
There's also a strong element of self-interest in letting someone past. One of the best pieces of advice I ever received about driving was here in the backroom, where someone recommended look at a driver proceeding dangerously and saying "whatever their problem is, I don't want to be part of it".
So, if some eejit wants to overtake dangerously, let them do so. When the eejit finally crashes, they won't be crashing into you, and it won't be your vital organs that end up being recycled.
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If they are traveling above the speed limit for the particular stretch of road you are on then surely you are aiding and abetting an offence ?
Since when is the obedience (or not) of speed limits by others any concern of yours?
If someone wants to go faster than you then let them get on with it, so that, at the very least, they then become someone else's problem further down the road.
If someone on a bike wishes to ride it faster than the speed limit, that is a matter for them, any traffic police who may happen to apprehend them in the act and/or the local speed camera partnership.
I cannot understand the mentality of certain road users who deliberately try to obstruct or antagonise those who they consider to be doing something of which they do not approve. Such people are those whom I believe Lud would term "aggressive mimsers".
This is the same sort of mindset held by those who write flatulent letters to local newspapers moaning about trivialities, and who anonymously report their neighbours to the Council for leaving their bins out the night before collection day.
Life. Is. Too. Short.
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Bikes "filtering" isn't an issue with me, but are all bikers aware how difficult they are to pick out as a sole headlight in the rear view mirrors amongst a sea of headlights when riding at night, or in poor visibility, on crowded roads.
Lane discipline is there for a reason, we can't all see the same "imaginary lanes" that motorcyclists can.
BTW is it possible to get a sense of humour transplant?
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I think all car drivers should spend time as a cyclist and then as a motorcyclist before they get their licence.In my experience appreciation of other travellers is often better learnt than observed.
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I don't want to tempt fate, but I have never had a problem spotting motorcyclists and always move over and let them pull-in in front if I anticipate this would assist their progress. Motorcyclists reduce congestion and leave more space on the roads for the rest of us in cars and I have no problem assisting their safe and swift passage. I think a lot of people have problems because their mirror's view is wasted on showing a skewed perspective flank of their car instead of the road around them.
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totally agree with john as a car driver and a biker i hope it makes me a better driver and rider on our roads.
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>>I thought we were talking about motorcyclists riding between 2 rows of traffic >>stationary at traffic lights etc, in which case the most they will achieve is getting a >>few car-lengths nearer the front of the queue.
L'escargot, I was a regular all year round commuter from my home to the centre of Brum (20 miles) for several years... most of the route in was that sort of traffic... I could do the house to work in 35 mins taking it easy but filtering between traffic, in a car you were talking 75/90 mins... hardly a small gain! I used a small, but reasonable quick bike which also did 70mpg on that commute, a Kawa GPz305... it was ideal for getting through the traffic...
If the traffic was stationary I took my time going through as people in cars have a habit of trying strange things in traffic (such as opening doors!) and the drivers didn't always tell their passengers to look out before opening their doors, even though they should! When traffic was moving at 25/30 I tended to stay with it rather than fly up the inside/middle as that was safer as well and you wouldn't save much time by filtering... One other thing was that I always had my headlight on and also made sure that drivers could see it if I was filtering...
MrX, I can't decide whether you are trolling with some of your comments, or are genuinely ignorant of the HC with regards to motorbikes (and cyclists) making progress in very slow/stationary traffic... could you enlighten me which one it is, please? If the former then I suggest that you take some time out and take the motorbike test... you will learn a great deal about other road users by doing so, maybe even make you think about the way you drive/percieve others... May even help if its the latter, too! ;)
Edited by b308 on 29/11/2008 at 15:31
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I think the IAM are ambiguous about what they really mean. I don't believe they were referring mainly to Motor bikes making progress through slow or stationary traffic but in general. In general would seem to include dodging and weaving on fast flowing M Ways and I will not base my style of driving around allowing them to commit illegal acts such as those.
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I will not base my style of driving around allowing them to commit illegal acts such as those.
You imply, Mr X, that your driving style may therefore be based around preventing them from committing what you call 'illegal acts' (many would disagree with you).
Anyone not a traffic policeman who attempts to control the behaviour of other traffic is in fact committing an act that is not just illegal but completely moronic and often very dangerous. If you try to obstruct motor bikes or any other vehicles on the road you deserve to be run in and banned from driving.
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Anyone not a traffic policeman who attempts to control the behaviour of other traffic is in fact committing an act that is not just illegal but completely moronic and often very dangerous. If you try to obstruct motor bikes or any other vehicles on the road you deserve to be run in and banned from driving.
Precisely, Lud. The only way that such "control" can be exercised is by increasing the danger to the other vehicle in performing their desired manoeuvre, and thereby probably increasing the danger to others as well.
I'm not in any way suggesting that you should compromise your own safety by letting someone else perform a manoeuvre, just that you should facilitate the manoeuvres of others when you can safely do so.
For example, you are required to drive to the left so far as is consistent with safety. If you move out in an attempt to block someone, then all you do is to force them further out in the path of incoming traffic, endangering both the overtaker and the vehicle coming the other way. Same goes if you speed up to increase the time-exposed-to-danger of the overtaking vehicle.
Edited by NowWheels on 30/11/2008 at 13:59
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>>Anyone not a traffic policeman who attempts to control the behaviour of other traffic isin fact committing an act that is not just illegal but completely moronic
So...
Highways Agency Traffic Officers
Manually Operated Level Crossings Operators
....are all committing illegal acts?
Bet there are one or two swing bridge operators who resent being called moronic, too.
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So... Highways Agency Traffic Officers Manually Operated Level Crossings Operators ....are all committing illegal acts?
Think that you'll find that they are entitled to do it, davmal.
Us ordinary drivers aren't.
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Perhaps you should re-read my post and, maybe quote it more fully to get the meaning ie you omitted my quote (from Lud's post and the subsequent reply) "Anyone not a traffic policeman......."
>>Think that you'll find that they are entitled to do it, davmal.
>>Us ordinary drivers aren't.
Taken in context your rebuke seems a little redundant.
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I agree with Mr X that the IAM advice is crafty and ambiguous. So far as I can discern the spirit of the thing, however, I fundamentally disagree with it and with the whole approach of treating motorcyclists as a favoured species whom we must all help along their way.
I rode a motorbike a long time ago and enjoyed it very much. At the same time I also worked in a hospital where, every Saturday night, it was part of the job to take the bodies in. The dead biker's mates would congregate around the ambulance at the mortuary and explain to each other than the dead one had had some "bad luck" or been "carved up". The next Saturday, one of the mates was the new corpse. This last summer I moved over to let a biker past "on the white line" out of the Channel ferry, and when we reached the first roundabout out of Dover he was lying in the road, looking dead.
They do these things better in America. Motorcyclists treat the road, and are treated by other other motorists, as occupying a car space. They don't overtake or undertake in circumstances where they would be unable to do so if they were driving a car - and car drivers don't overtake them if they can't similarly move out to another lane.
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Personally I use the 20/20 rule in town - if the traffic's doing less then 20, I don't go more than 20mph faster - and if the traffic's flowing above 20 there's no point in passing.
Add to that the other "20" rule for bikers - You are 20 times more likely to die as a biker, than as a car driver (fact).
And when you're dead it really doesn't matter whose fault it was.
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I am generally amazed when riding in France - it's not far away, but the attitude to other road users, especially bikes is like a breath of fresh air compared to the caged, miserable numties sat in cars over here. Why is it the UK breeds miserable gits who's blood pressure leaps if someone happens to get to their destination sooner than them.
Come across a busy road in France (and much of Europe) and the gaps just open up for bikes.
Road rage just doesn't seem to occur over there, live and let live - C'est la vie
I guess it is down to the fact that a large percentage of car drivers started off on scooters and
mopeds (and may well still use them).
Filtering though slow moving or stationary traffic makes up for getting wet when it rains ;)
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many drivers in Blighty have become incredibly selfish and ignorant.
The same people who would intentionally hold up a m/c when they could quite easily let it on its' way...are the same who when driving along a Scottish single track road with passing places, as a tourist, who would decline to pull in and let people pass (as the signs say)...or when towing a caravan up a Welsh hillside would secretly relish the queue behind them, rather than pulling in periodically...or hogging lane 3 on a m/way when you could easily pull in...or does the whole trip on a m/way in lane 2
for some reason there is this 'me first, i don't care about you' attitude which doesn't seem to be as bad in other countries
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Road rage just doesn't seem to occur over there, live and let live - C'est la vie
Not sure why we English have such an idealised view of the French. I suppose its because our normal experience is a few weeks a year in rural France. Living for a year in Paris saw more aggression and downright dangerous driving than I ever saw in London. I think you will find the death rate of motorcylists in France is even worse than ours,
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There was nothing ambiguous in that report, MrX, it is you who have added scenarios such as a fast flowing motorway, which was not the situation they were refering to. I would refer you to the phrases:
- particularly acute at junctions - not many of them on motorways!
- If stuck in dense traffic - again note the words - you are talking of free flowing motorway traffic, they clearly are not!
and:
- reminds commuters on two wheels - note the word "commuters"
In slow or stationary traffic there is nothing illegal about motorbikes filtering, you are actually taught it when taking lessons!... You seem to have a really large chip on your shoulder against motorcyclists, perhaps because they can get somewhere quicker than you(?!), but as NW says 'Life is too short', so try taking the advice in the last parra:
"Never be tempted to vent frustration with the traffic by getting in the way of a motorcycle on purpose. The traffic won't go any faster and dangerous driving may contribute to a collision which will add to congestion rather than alleviate it"
Live and let live, eh!
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Definition of ' dense " ?
I've seen them performing the waive on dual carriagways that where in my opinion , flowing quite well. By doing so they become a hazard. Be it in a car, on two wheels or two legs, we are all commuters.
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MrX, as far as I'm concerned you are trolling on this thread... it is quite clear from the link that they are refering to stationary/near stationary traffic, it is you that keeps harping on about free flowing situations...
For the record I agree with you that if traffic is flowing at reasonable speeds then they should not be weaving, and I have said myself that when speeds got to about 25 or so I didn't weave but stayed with the flow... I know that some bikers do, mainly couriers, I suspect, but they are doing so at their own risk... having said that I don't get wound up by them as you clearly are... if they are that bad then sooner or later they will end up off the road either temporarilly or permamently... and I won't feel sorry for them...
The advice from the IAM is clear and sensible... if you want to have a go at motorcyclists who do stupid things then perhaps a seperate thread is called for rather than trying to knock advice which actually seeks to bring harmony to our all to busy roads??
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There is only one ' organisation ' which can issue binding advice on what we do on our roads and that is the GOVERNMENT . The IAM is not a goverment organisation.
This thread was started to to point out that I find their advice misguided on the basis that I view most bikers with distain.
That is an OPINION that I am entitled to hold just as much as the next man is entitled to come on here and praise what I regard as a dangerous practise be it stationary traffic or flowing M Way traffic.
Your silly name calling will not alter my opinion one iota.
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Thanks for confirming my suspicions, MrX.
BTW with reference to the "Law" and filtering, Highway Code Rule 88:
"Manoeuvring. You should be aware of what is behind and to the sides before manoeuvring. Look behind you; use mirrors if they are fitted. When in traffic queues look out for pedestrians crossing between vehicles and vehicles emerging from junctions or changing lanes. Position yourself so that drivers in front can see you in their mirrors. Additionally, when filtering in slow-moving traffic, take care and keep your speed low."
With particualr reference to the last sentance which is what the IAM were refering to...
Edited by b308 on 30/11/2008 at 10:38
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This thread was started to to point out that I find their advice misguided on the basis that I view most bikers with distain. That is an OPINION that I am entitled to hold just as much as the next man
Says it all really.......
The bit that worries me most is ''I view most bikers with distain.''
Just how far is MrX willing to go to show his distain? Causing an accident to prove his point?
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Just how far is MrX willing to go to show his distain? Causing an accident to prove his point?
Indeed - You can see them in queues of stationary traffic on D/Cs and motorways - they nudge their front wing over the lane lines in bucolic rage of someone daring to pass them.
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Anger serves little purpose. It is a trait of the weak as a rule.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 30/11/2008 at 11:27
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I expect Mr X actually means 'disdain' but as a humble biker who am I to say.
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