>>I wonder why they couldn't make an efficient car engine?
I thought they did - the Perkins(?) diesel BL put in the Montego was pretty efficient, but almost as dirty as the Deltics when floored.
ISTR they had a special dispensation when it came to MOT time..
But I might be making it all up again.. who knows??
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Sir John (Gresley) often makes summer runs through here, but last year (for some reason) it was relaced by LMS Class 8F - Black Five, who really made itself remembered!
locomotive 48151.
www.nwemail.co.uk/1.114574
;-)
Billy
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Yes, lineside fires are a bit of a nightmare, at least a couple of steam runs down my way were cancelled two summers back due to fire risk. No problems this 'summer' ! Just to carry on the trainspotter theme, forthcoming mainline steam runs are listed here:-
www.uksteam.info/tours/trs08.htm>> Sir John (Gresley) often makes summer runs through here but last year (for some reason)
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hmm! as previously mentioned in the IHAQ thread my memory for names is "dire"!! of course Sir John should be Sir Nigel!!!!!
Billy
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There was a black five that used to do a charter run (Hull-York-Scarborough-Hull) during the summer in the 1980s. It used to set a lot of fires and at night the firebox used to glow very brightly. I think these were modified to make them draw better and that might be the cause. Anyone know?
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There was a black five that used to do a charter run (Hull-York-Scarborough-Hull) during the summer in the 1980s. It used to set a lot of fires and at night the firebox used to glow very brightly. I think these were modified to make them draw better and that might be the cause. Anyone know?
Not sure, Black Fives aren't my specialist subject, and there were a huge number of variations within the class, I'll see if I can find out. They were pretty much the Ford Transit of the rail network ( desperate attempt to keep vague motoring link)
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Great comments from all and some good links on You Tube. One of them shows a green liveried diesel. It brought back memories because I had a model in the same colours as a kid. Ahh those were the days...
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I had a teenage friend in the 1970s who knew much about Deltic engines. He was so enthusiastic about them that he would talk about them for hours and even used to describe their workings in great detail to potential girlfriends. That never seemed to do the trick but it at least had the virtue of originality. He later went on to build "chopper" motorcycles and affected an unruly beard. Always one for finding new ways of expanding his mind he eventually took something which over expanded it and is no longer with us. Beware of Deltics I say....
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There was a clip on Youtube showing a Deltic loco leavng a station on absolute full chat: An unbelievably shrill pulsing scream: I can understand how it would upset people living near a line when these were running!
I have a photo book (proud nerd that I am) with a lot of pictures of this engine in marine and loco use: Napier Powered by Alan Vassey (or is it Vessey: have not got it in front of me).
Paxman Vanenta V12 in an Intercity always used to scare me witless as a little boy when opened up: used to make the ground tremble. Now when I' m at a station I go and stand as close as possible to the engine car to savour the noise: sad I know!
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This deltic theme brings back memories of visiting my cousin back in the 70's who lived near Werrington north of Peterborough. Near his home there used to be a flimsy metal footbridge over the East Coast main line. It was literally a few inches above the trains and it was great fun to crouch down as a deltic hauled express thundered towards you at high speed. The blast of sound and rush of hot air from the exhausts followed by the shaking of the bridge and slipstream of the carriages all within inches of your face was quite something!
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Here's the clip,turn down your speakers or up if you like but don't say I didn't warn you!
tinyurl.com/58eoog
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LOL, classic Deltic sound. I suppose 7,000+ horsepower for a two coach train should give a decent power to weight ratio....
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I'm afraid to show my spotter side now - I used to spot the steamers in their last days in the north west back in the mid 60s... so...
Billy, 48151 is an 8F, not a Black Five - different wheel arrangement - the 8F is a 2-8-0 freight engine, and as someone else said the Black Fives were maids of all work and were 4-6-0s! If a Five was used on a full sized train that should have been hauled by an A4 that probably explains the glowing firebox - it'd been working pretty hard and sending cinders high into the sky! Nice sight, though!
I remember talking to one of the drivers once who was telling me about the last days of use of the old HSTs for Crosscountry back in the early part of the decade... so many coaches had been removed from the set that they were left with two power cars and three coaches... not much use for the poor old passengers but with around 4500hp and only about 250 tons it went like stink from a standing start!
Edited by b308 on 26/11/2008 at 14:29
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"Here's the clip,turn down your speakers or up if you like but don't say I didn't warn you!"
Boy, did that shift my cat.
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>>around 4500hp and only about 250 tons it went like stink from a standing start!
Really? 18hp/ton.
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>>around 4500hp and only about 250 tons it went like stink from a standing start! Really? 18hp/ton.
Yep, that's a good ratio for a train; a typical Voyager 4 car express diesel set is around 200 tons and 3000 hp i.e. 15 hp/ton
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>>48151 is an 8F, not a Black Five <<
I knew my deliberate mistake would un-earth the unfortunates suffering from "Anorakorism" ;-)
you are quite correct (after a little Google) I discovered that 8f's aren't Black-Fives (something to do with wheels) (cant trust newspaper journo's to get thier facts right can you!) ooops! excluding H.J of course! ;-)
Anyway, the "firebug" was in fact 8F class 48151 "Gauge o Guild" which is not a "5"
Well spotted! obviously it never leaves you ! ;-)
Billy
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obviously it never leaves you ! ;-)
'fraid not, Billy!
Though there are worse hobbies... watching reality TV anyone....
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One thing a HST NEVER did was go like stink from a standing start.
They had no field weakening so had very low torque from rest, were very close to burning out the motors.
Now when they were testing the APT power cars they had 2 HST driving cars (2250hp each - at alternator) plus two APT power cars (4000hp each at the wheel) with about 7 cars in total. With almost no train heat loading it was about 12000hp driving about 500 tonnes.
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One thing a HST NEVER did was go like stink from a standing start.
I bow to your superior knowledge... though I was only quoting what one of our drivers who drove the 2+3 set said... and as he rides a high powered motorbike I did assume he knew what he was talking about! :)
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Wow, I'm not actually into either trains or diesel engines to be honest, but the noise of those Deltics in the You Tube videos is spectacular.
Why was a diesel-electric drive used for these trains anyway? It must have been terribly inefficient burning diesel fuel to create motion to drive a generator to power an electric motor that created motion again. Wouldn't it have made more sense to connect the diesel engine via a gearbox to the wheels like in a car (motoring connection)?
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I assume that the problem was building a mechanical gearbox / clutch arrangement with suitable ratios that could handle the torque of a big diesel engine. There are alternatives, some locos and multiple units use / have used diesel hydraulic transmission, more like a traditional car autobox. The most well known of these were the "Western" class, which have a fan club of similar size / persuasion to the Deltics . More youtube! :-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oAoljBweZs
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Also with an Electric traction engine ready built in, it may not have been unfeasable to modify them to pick up current from overhead or third rail supplies, should the need/technology arise prior to thier class phase-out. (maybe)
Billy
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Wow, that's a lot of smoke!
Thanks for the answer SpamCan, I guess you're probably right. A gearbox/ clutch arrangement to handle that amount of torque would probably be enormous and complex.
There are regional trains in Germany which operate between Munich and the middle of nowhere using diesel engines, and I'm fairly certain the engines are connected via gearbox to the axles. Nowhere near the size of a deltic though.
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>>Why was a diesel-electric drive used for these trains anyway?
The drive acheives, at the expense of some conversion losses, a very good CVT!!
DC traction motors were / are a very reliable means of providing drive to a wheelset, with already a long railway heritage prior to the design of the Deltics, and other modernisation plan locos.
Gearboxes with fixed ratios were / are only used on the most feeble locomotives. The truly deviant transmission option was the hydraulic option.
The closest to a dual purpose train might be the class 73s which had a diesel engine onboard, but also shoes to pick up from the 3rd rail.
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Gearboxes with fixed ratios were / are only used on the most feeble locomotives.
I suppose the Class 101 DMUs and suchlike with their glorified bus powertrains were at least fairly long lived, 40 years of rattling round the country. But then we're only talking 150hp or thereabouts.
>>The truly deviant transmission option was the hydraulic option.
LOL; that'd be fighting talk on the railway groups I hang about on;-)
The closest to a dual purpose train might be the class 73s which had a diesel engine onboard but also shoes to pick up from the 3rd rail.
>>
The ultimate 'box on wheels' styling but certainly a very versatile design, I had a run behind a 'JB' on the Lymington branch a few weeks ago. Not in the Deltic/Western league for engine note though:-/
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>>Not in the Deltic/Western league for engine note though:-/
While I was fitting strain auge instrumentation to a 455 in Eastleigh some years ago, there was a 4 cylinder EE engine apart in the shed - I'm not sure if it was from an 08 shunter, or a 73. Being a nosy parker, I made sure I had a good look at all the engine parts arranged in neat bespoke shelve around the block. I thought it was really quite a well laid out engine considering its development history. As you say, not quite in the Deltic class regarding engine note!
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>> The closest to a dual purpose train might be the class 73s which had a >> diesel engine onboard but also shoes to pick up from the 3rd rail. >> The ultimate 'box on wheels' styling but certainly a very versatile design I had a run behind a 'JB' on the Lymington branch a few weeks ago. Not in the Deltic/Western league for engine note though:-/
>>
Wasn't the 73 650hp on diesel power and 2000hp on electric? I think the diesel was only used in sidings and branches where there no third rails... if they were to do a new hybrid, for running on high speed inter city lines such as Crosscountry then the diesel power output would have to enable the train to go as fast (top speed) as it would when using purely electric traction otherwise it wouldn't be worth it...
I am quite looking forward to what they eventually come up with... I suspect it will be a dual purpose set, where one set will have diesel power and overhead current collectors and there will also be another variation which will be purely electric... that way it will appeal to more buyers... trouble is that the TOCs have just invested in the (cheaper option) of refurbing the HSTs so don't expect anything soon!
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Wasn't the 73 650hp on diesel power and 2000hp on electric? I think the diesel was only used in sidings and branches where there no third rails...
From memory the 73s are ( given they are still running - just! ) around 1500hp on the juice. The class 74 was an attempt to make a dual power loco with decent power on diesel, but they were a nightmare to build and maintain from all accounts.
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From memory the 73s are ( given they are still running - just! ) around 1500hp on the juice.
Dug out my '65 combine - 73s were 600/1600 and 74s 800/2500. though on electric traction only I believe that the difference in tractive effort was considerablely higher than diesel only
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Paxman Vanenta V12 in an Intercity always used to scare me witless as a little boy when opened up: used to make the ground tremble.
I still think this is one of the finest sounding engines ever made. A menacing sub-bass rumble overlaid with the piercing scream of that massive Napier single turbocharger.
Standing 6ft from one of these things in a station as it spools up to pull away is an experience I highly recommend. The noise is just biblical, unlike the featureless whine of the MTU engines that are replacing these as the HST fleet is re-engined to keep it in service for a bit longer.
I've only heard a Deltic from video, but it was enough to make me realise I'd probably missed out on something special.
Cheers
DP
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Think that you'll find that those living near stations and signals where HSTs are held from time to time might just agree with you about the Paxmans' noise being biblical, but from a completely different angle, DP! The noise from an MTU engine, whilst not sounding as good from the enthusiasts' point of view is a lot more agreeable for the neighbours of railways!!
And there's a lot less smoke that from either a Paxman or a Deltic engine as well... watching either of those two starting up from cold is quite an experience... makes even the old Perkins engine in my old Maestro look clean by comparison!!
Edited by b308 on 27/11/2008 at 15:51
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On the subject of engine sounds and their emotional effect. As a child I lived within a stones throw, so to speak, of a main railway line, a commercial airport/RAF base and a racing circuit.
It was normal to hear the trains ( including Deltics ) or see and hear a Vanguard a Comet or a Vulcan bomber. Regular visits from Hercules transport planes and an occasional Spitfire. Sometimes a Lightning firing up the afterburner.....that is biblical....or to hear highly tuned racing cars or bikes on the circuit.
No wonder a spotty critter with a straight through exhaust strapped to a tatty Corsa/Saxo fails to impress in later life!!
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Ae they selving the old Paxman's and fitting these MTUs in the Intercity 125's. Shame if the Paxman is going as it is a real treat. As usual the fun police are out to play.
I hope these MTUs sound better than the 6 cylinder Cummins in the Virgin Voyager:just a dull drone. Are the MTUs big V12s?
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I have just heard an MTU on Youtube and it is as dull as ditch water.The Paxman I agree was just an unbelievable engine in its ability to stir the senses. Another victory for the fun police...
What i meant to say in the above post is are theyTOTALLY binning the Paxmans?
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Ae they selving the old Paxman's and fitting these MTUs in the Intercity 125's.
I believe so, it makes economic sense for the TOCs to do this as the MTU is a lot more reliable, and the Paxman is getting long in the tooth. I think the only way it can be saved now is if someone takes a couple of Class 43s into preservation. I believe EMT are still cascading some fleet to replace with 222s (boo... hiss!) so there might be a few going spare?
With respect to retrofitting DEMUs or diesel-electrics with pantographs or shoes - I don't believe this has ever been done. If they electrify some of the cross-country route then the 220/221s would be the next viable option for retrofitting, but I doubt it'll be done, and they'll just cascade these and put IEP trains in their place.
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So many things to comment on...!
Going back a bit, the Westerns and warships were based on a German Diesel Hydraulic mainline class, though like the German engines were successful though expensive to run... and as they were non-standard in the UK they got binned... plenty of them still around preserved, though... I believe the first diesel hydraulics were actually shunters, but I could stand corrected on that...
The use of electric, rather than hydraulic transmission probably dates back to the American use of mainline diesels, they were way ahead of Europe in the replacement of steam engines and had been using them for years... hence proven technology... as was the electric motors used to power the wheels... strangely I believe that most diesel hydraulic locos used high-revving diesel engines rather than the slow revving ones that were the norm with electric transmissions - the Deltic being an odd example of high revving diesel and electric transmission...
With regard to the current HST fleets, I think that most of them have now been re-engined with the MTU engine which has been used because its quieter, more fuel efficient, reliable and cleaner... I believe its a family of engines produced by MTU for trains throughout Europe, they are from 8 to 20 cylinders in size.
Converting a Voyager to become a hybrid I suspect is very unlikely, it would involve an awful lot more than just lowering the roof at one end... more likely is a brand new Hybrid train - I think that Hitachi are looking at the possibility of one... it would certainly make sense for CrossCountry - though the problem is the franchise (and this applies to the rest of the TOCs) - the current system does not make it worth them investing in such expensive new technology as they are likely to have lost the franchise before they get any return from the new stock!
So a diesel electric car will probably beat the D-E train into the real world... a sad state of affairs as the technology is definitely here now!
Hope that helps...
Edited by b308 on 27/11/2008 at 20:02
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In an attempt to try and steer this thread back to 'motoring' may I introduce you to Zontar the train spotting alien, who also has a passion for Deltics. Well at least this clip does have a scene from a motor parts shop, and an amazing repair by radweld!
tinyurl.com/5borem
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Very enjoyable! Didn't know ET spoke with a northern accent, though, thought it was american!!
Again to keep some motoring in the thread - I think everyone has had wheelslip when setting off from traffic lights in the wet... but think of the poor engine driver who has to contend with metal wheel on metal rail when starting in the wet on a gradiant... my favourite steam engines and some cringe-worthy slipping out of Stratford station:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MIZvCvzVg8
Thats why freight engines didn't use the pacific wheel arrangement and large wheels!!
Edited by b308 on 29/11/2008 at 09:16
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well what do you expect from a LMS driver.
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:)
There's an even better one of an LNER Pacific (Blue Peter I think) that completely ruined its motion when an ineperienced driver didn't shut off the steam quick enough when it started to slip... but I couldn't find it!!
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:) There's an even better one of an LNER Pacific (Blue Peter I think) that completely ruined its motion when an ineperienced driver didn't shut off the steam quick enough when it started to slip... but I couldn't find it!!
yes the driver did a good job on that one - took 18 months to repair the damage.
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Cost a few quid to repair as well!
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Reading up on that incident, perhaps I was a little harsh on the driver.
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Link to the read please RF.
TIA Phil I
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Link to the read please RF. TIA Phil I
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here you go phil
www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1535
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Again to introduce a motoring theme to keep the thread... what you have seen when starting also applies when stopping the things... from 125mph its over a mile before it stops... and as they weigh several hundred tons its not a good idea to try to beat one at a level crossing!
Even a little one!
www.gov.im/lib/images/tourism/news/portsodricktrai...g
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>>also applies when stopping the things...
Yes, one of the projects I have worked on was to assess the braking system of a class of vehciles for an upgrade to allow the maximum rate of braking to be raised from 12% to 13.5% of g.
Cars routinely stop with maximum rates of braking limited by tyre / road friction of 70%, and, in dry conditions with sticky compound tyres, over 100% can be acheived. All of this makes 12% look rather limited!
Of course, if there is leaf mulch on the line, then 12% of g might be asking too much of the iterface. Yes!, despite the mocking of the media, it is a difficult problem!
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Assuming 12% braking,
% Convert 125 mph into metres per second vms=125*1609.3/3600; % convert rate of braking into an acceleration z=(12/100)*9.81; % Estimate stopping distance by rearranging % v^2 = u^2 + 2 a s % with v = 0, u = vms, and a = -z s= (vms^2)/(2*z)
s =
1.3262e+003
% express as a fraction of a mile s/1609.3
ans =
0.8241
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I thought they had sand-boxes from which they could trickle sand under the wheels to help provide grip?
Billy
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I thought they had sand-boxes
They do, and it will have been in use at Stratford, but sometimes rail conditions get the better of even sand! I suspect that there would have been a nice coating of oil as well on that bit of line which would have made things interesting...
When a modern train brakes from high speed in an emergency sand is automatically put on the track in front of the leading wheels... but 300+ tones of steel on a steel rail takes some slowing! (BTW, just like modern cars they have ABS and Anti slip controls as well) - Modern stock is lighter and uses disc brakes - the older trains used brake blocks against the wheel rims, which whilst not as good as slowing the train did have the advantage of cleaning the wheel rims of undesirables such as leaf milch...
If you want to compare what a train driver experiences when braking on wet leaves think of trying to stop at a set of lights where there is a nice coating of old engine oil/diesel from other cars at a set of lights... you brake, it slides, abs kicks in, it keeps sliding... your heart goes into your mouth and you hope its will stop...
One reason this time of year the drivers use what they call "defensive driving techniques" such as early braking which might mean a few minutes on the timetable but means you get there in one piece!
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Towards the end of the clip it sounded (by the squealing) as if the driver was also using a degree of brake to try and make the wheels more reluctant to spin, is that also a common procedure? I have used similar practice when setting off on an icy road before now!
Billy
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Towards the end of the clip it sounded (by the squealing) as if the driver was also using a degree of brake
If you are refering to the Stratford clip, he would have been using the brake as well, but only as its a hill start, just like we would in a car... you can't really see it but there is a fair gradient out of the station (for a railway) and it was on a bend, thats why he was struggling... the weather didn't help either!!
Edited by b308 on 29/11/2008 at 16:03
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It was basically the wrong engine, in the wrong place, pulling the wrong load.
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Indeed, even more on a motoring thread, I have a nice photo it took (must scan it in) of a train that knocked over a no entry sign when it failed to stop and tried to join the road network
this photo is not mine but i was there taking piccies.
www.panoramio.com/photo/9480836
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Yes! despite the mocking of the media it is a difficult problem!
Indeed. And you can de-veg and poor sandite over the rails as much as you like, but if you've got a windy day with trees in close proximity not on railway land then you're going to get the inevitable problems.
The other major problem is that leaf mulch is a very good insulator, and can prevent track circuits (short circuit across the rail through the axle) closing properly; thus the signaller & equipment will not have indication of the train on the line - very undesirable! IIRC track circuits are set to close at only a couple of ohms, so there isn't much room for error.
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Tks RF plus Manatee.
Happy Motoring with occasional trainspotting on the side.;-)
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